Proverbs of hell

Started by revolt, October 16, 2008, 17:36:19

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revolt

Here are some of the "Proverbs of Hell", as included in William Blake's "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell" (1790-1793)


The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.

Prudence is a rich ugly old maid courted by Incapacity.

He who desires but acts not, breeds pestilence.

A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees.

He whose face gives no light, shall never become a star.

Eternity is in love with the productions of time.

The hours of folly are measur'd by the clock, but of wisdom: no clock can measure.

No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings.

If the fool would persist in his folly he would become wise.

Prisons are built with stones of Law, Brothels with bricks of Religion.

Excess of sorrow laughs. Excess of joy weeps.

Joys impregnate. Sorrows bring forth.

What is now proved was once, only imagin'd.

One thought, fills immensity.

The tygers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Expect poison from the standing water.

You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough.

If others had not been foolish, we should be so.

As the catterpiller chooses the fairest leaves to lay her eggs on, so the priest lays his curse on the fairest joys.

To create a little flower is the labour of ages.

The crow wish'd every thing was black, the owl, that every thing was white.

Improvement makes strait roads, but the crooked roads without Improvement, are roads of Genius.

Sooner murder an infant in its cradle than nurse unacted desires.

Where man is not nature is barren.

Truth can never be told so as to be understood, and not be believ'd.


iwannashagsimon

QuotePrisons are built with stones of Law, Brothels with bricks of Religion.

I never knew prostitution was Holy! :smth043 :smth043 :smth043 :smth043 :smth043 :smth043

revolt

Quote from: iwannashagsimon on October 16, 2008, 17:40:07
QuotePrisons are built with stones of Law, Brothels with bricks of Religion.

I never knew prostitution was Holy! :smth043 :smth043 :smth043 :smth043 :smth043 :smth043


I doesn't mean that. It's more something along these lines: repression of instincts / desires eventually leads to them having an excessive power over you. This explains, for instance, that many girls who have had an overly repressive religious education often later in life turn in the opposite direction, maybe not becoming prostitutes but leading a sex life tending towards excess...

japanesebaby

Quote from: revolt on October 16, 2008, 17:36:19
If others had not been foolish, we should be so.

hmm, or shouldn't it really be the other way round? sure, it would be a dull proverb then, but....
because if we find justification to (some of our own) foolishness then perhaps it wasn't even true foolishness after all. i mean, we wouldn't call something foolish unless it really was so.

Quote from: revolt on October 16, 2008, 17:36:19
Where man is not nature is barren.


here's something that proves that blake, being a man of 19th century, was of course completely unable to see the environmental issues of our world today: because today i'd surely rather say "where man IS, nature is barren". that seems to be the sad truth in the 21st century. therefore, not all "old wisdom" has stayed wisdom - and we should always remember to be careful when reading various "scriptures"...
and especially since the truth in this one hasn't changed at all:
Quote from: revolt on October 16, 2008, 17:36:19
To create a little flower is the labour of ages.

if we only understood that and started acting accordingly.

it has been calculated that the extinction rate of species (caused by man) is possibly even up to 1000 times faster than the rate with which new species are evolving. the evolution is of course still at work just like it always was, but it's too slow, to be able to fight the man. and therefore for every small new flower that is being forged into existence, perhaps one thousand others disappeared. it's not difficult to mathematics, to calculate how long it'll take until we humans become extinct. *)

*)considering that this rate stayed the same of course - which it of course doesn't, there are too many variables in the equation. nevertheless it's a very good exercise for everyone, something to think about.

Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

revolt

Quote from: japanesebaby on October 17, 2008, 09:14:54
Quote from: revolt on October 16, 2008, 17:36:19
If others had not been foolish, we should be so.

hmm, or shouldn't it really be the other way round? sure, it would be a dull proverb then, but....
because if we find justification to (some of our own) foolishness then perhaps it wasn't even true foolishness after all. i mean, we wouldn't call something foolish unless it really was so.



Well, I intepret that proverb as follows: mistakes made by others enable us to avoid them - if we learn from them. At the same time mistakes are always bound to happen, specially in new areas of experience (personal, political, artistical, scientifical, etc), so they will eventually happen, no matter who is responsible for them.

Your comment makes sense, but then the foolishness of some action is not something purely objective. It is a value judgment, after all, and so it depends on our own perspective. Which could change over time. So at some point in time we may think we have done something foolish but later, with the benefit of hindsight, we might come to the conclusion that it wasn't so foolish after all.



Quote from: japanesebaby on October 17, 2008, 09:14:54

Quote from: revolt on October 16, 2008, 17:36:19
Where man is not nature is barren.


here's something that proves that blake, being a man of 19th century, was of course completely unable to see the environmental issues of our world today: because today i'd surely rather say "where man IS, nature is barren". that seems to be the sad truth in the 21st century. therefore, not all "old wisdom" has stayed wisdom - and we should always remember to be careful when reading various "scriptures"...

You know, I chose these particular proverbs because I think they're thought provoking, it doesn't mean I agree with all of them (well, I do agree with most of them, but it was not my intention to present them as a sort of "bible" we all should follow - my intention was to provoke discussion, in a good way).

You're right about man being destructive of nature, of course. In fact, I admit that I read that proverb in a different way, maybe because I read it too quickly or was expecting to find something different there... I read it as "where man is not nature, he is barren", meaning that our lives can only be fruitful if we follow our own nature.


Quote from: japanesebaby on October 17, 2008, 09:14:54
it's not difficult to mathematics, to calculate how long it'll take until we humans become extinct. *)


Well, it's the good that die young, supposedly. If we are to take this saying seriously, then mankind will still be here for a very very long time...

japanesebaby

Quote from: revolt on October 17, 2008, 11:09:34
Well, it's the good that die young, supposedly. If we are to take this saying seriously, then mankind will still be here for a very very long time...

well, i'm not sure i understand your quotation of that proverb here. i mean the fact is that the great majority of ALL life on earth is going to be in peril simply and solely because of us humans. so to say that "only the good die young" doesn't make the disappearance of all that abundancy of life any more "right". "only the good die young" - to me that proverb is a futile way of trying to glorify something that doesn't deserve any glorification. it's a proverb that originates from some time and place that glorified war and heroic deeds. but is there really anything worth glorifying there?
you know, it's the same when people say that same proverb when talking about ian curtis or james dean or whoever who died too young - i find it quite gross, really. death (and/or extinction) are not glorious things.


sure, extinction is also a law of nature, species have always become extinct throughout the history of this planet. and they will keep becoming so. BUT never before has one species alone wiped out so many other simply out of its complete ignorance towards other life forms, simply out of its cruelty and greed. how does one justify that? well, one can't. the fact is that as a species we've fucked up totally.

and therefore, will mankind be there for a very long time - personally i'd actually hope that we were not. rationally speaking it would be much better for this planet if we disappeared today.
so i'm not sad about us becoming extinct, in a way, we'd totally deserve it!  i'm sad about all the life forms we're taking with us on our own "grand" way out.
we're very likely to become extinct in the end if we continue the way we have. and rightfully so.
we easily forget that humans as a species are on the top of the food chain and species on the top are the first ones to get into serious trouble when things get really bad, that's the way it always goes. what will survive are simple forms like bacteria, some insects, some plant life. therefore those should be rated much higher than us humans- that's where the hope is, it's not in us. sadly.

so no, i wouldn't be sad if all of humanity disappeared from this planet tomorrow. therefore "it doesn't matter if we all die" (quite approriate here, i think).
even if we all disappeared completely, with all of our work, all of our infrastructure etc, disappeared just like that, overnight, even then it would still probably take some 100 000 years for the planet to heal.

Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

japanesebaby

Quote from: revolt on October 17, 2008, 11:09:34
You know, I chose these particular proverbs because I think they're thought provoking, it doesn't mean I agree with all of them (well, I do agree with most of them, but it was not my intention to present them as a sort of "bible" we all should follow - my intention was to provoke discussion, in a good way).

i didn't think that you meant you agreed with them all. i did understand it was just a list of ideas, quotations.

about thought-provoking things. i think one important thing is what i said about us forgetting the time and place when something was written. we are not all wrong when we look into old scriptures with respect and seeking wisdom from them. there's wisdom in that search, for sure. but too often people take things literally and forget the time and place when something was said/written. we forget that the world was not always like it is today. people stick to bible and other "holy" books taking every little thing literally, forgetting that not everything translates to our modern world. but when you try pointing this out to them they start shouting "blasphemy!!!".
that's always very sad and something that forever seems to get in the way of a lot of important conversation.

btw this is not any sort of criticism towards something you said, just thoughts in general.
Yo

Quote from: revolt on October 17, 2008, 11:09:34
I read it as "where man is not nature, he is barren", meaning that our lives can only be fruitful if we follow our own nature.

hmm, ok i get what you mean but i really cannot read it that way. of course i'm not a native english speaker either so i could be wrong but i cannot read the word "nature" there as meaning man's nature, his spirit etc. the sentence doesn't make full sense to me grammatically.

Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

revolt

Quote from: japanesebaby on October 17, 2008, 11:49:17
Quote from: revolt on October 17, 2008, 11:09:34
Well, it's the good that die young, supposedly. If we are to take this saying seriously, then mankind will still be here for a very very long time...

well, i'm not sure i understand your quotation of that proverb. the fact is that the great majority of ALL life on earth is going to be in peril simply and solely because of us humans. so to say that "only the good die young" doesn't make the disappearance of all that life any more "right". "only the good die young" - to me that proverb is a futile way of trying to glorify something that doesn't deserve any glorification. you know, it's the same when people say that proverb talking about ian curtis or james dean or whoever who died too young - i find it quite gross, really. death (and/or extinction) are not glorious things.

sure, extinction is also a law of nature, species have always become extinct throughout the history of this planet. and they will keep becoming so. BUT never before has one species alone wiped out so many other simply out of its complete ignorance towards other life forms, simply out of its cruelty and greed. how does one justify that? well, one can't. the fact is that as a species we've fucked up totally.

and therefore, will mankind be there for a very long time - personally i'd actually hope that we were not. rationally speaking it would be much better for this planet if we disappeared today.
so i'm not sad about us becoming extinct, in a way, we'd totally deserve it!  i'm sad about all the life forms we're taking with us on our own "grand" way out.
we're very likely to become extinct in the end if we continue the way we have. and rightfully so.
we easily forget that humans as a species are on the top of the food chain and species on the top are the first ones to get into serious trouble when things get really bad, that's the way it always goes. what will survive are simple forms like bacteria, some insects, some plant life. therefore those should be rated much higher than us humans- that's where the hope is, it's not in us. sadly.

so no, i wouldn't be sad if all of humanity disappeared from this planet tomorrow. therefore "it doesn't matter if we all die" (quite approriate here, i think).
even if we all disappeared completely, with all of our work, all of our infrastructure etc, disappeared just like that, overnight, even then it would still probably take some 100 000 years for the planet to heal.




Well, I agree with everything you say here... By the way, I wasn't offering any kind of "justification" or "glorification" of death. I just meant simply that since mankind "is no good", it will probably stay here for a long time... I said it lightly but with no intention to disregard your argumentation or anything like it.

Actually, and sorry if I'm joking a bit too much here, I wouldn't like the world to end exactly tomorrow, since I have quite some expectations for the new U2 album early next year. I would actually like to hear it before I die.  ;)

revolt

Quote from: japanesebaby on October 17, 2008, 11:58:03
Quote from: revolt on October 17, 2008, 11:09:34
I read it as "where man is not nature, he is barren", meaning that our lives can only be fruitful if we follow our own nature.

hmm, ok i get what you mean but i really cannot read it that way. of course i'm not a native english speaker either so i could be wrong but i cannot read the word "nature" there as meaning man's nature, his spirit etc. the sentence doesn't make full sense to me grammatically.



But it is your reading that is correct, I agree. I just misread the proverb, probably because I was expecting to find something different there.