Russia attacks Ukraine

Started by dsanchez, February 24, 2022, 10:20:02

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MeltingMan

QuoteClergy in Russia who speak out against the invasion of Ukraine risk losing their freedom. The Russian Orthodox Church officially supports what the Kremlin describes as a "special military operation."

En cette nation [Russie] qui n'a pas eu de théoriciens et de démagogues,
les pires ferments de destruction ont apparu. (J. Péladan)

MeltingMan

QuoteOver twenty years ago, the former secretary general of Nato, George Robertson, visited Moscow and held talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin.


Putin was exasperated at the Celebrations for D-Day 2014. Merkel had to appease him. Everyone else looked away ... took no note from it.
En cette nation [Russie] qui n'a pas eu de théoriciens et de démagogues,
les pires ferments de destruction ont apparu. (J. Péladan)

MeltingMan

QuoteIn an interview that has so far only been partly in public, Pope Francis comments on the continuing war in Ukraine. Without calling the country, he calls Ukraine to "Courage to the White Flag" and negotiations. The full interview will be broadcast on March 20.

En cette nation [Russie] qui n'a pas eu de théoriciens et de démagogues,
les pires ferments de destruction ont apparu. (J. Péladan)

Ulrich

Quote from: MeltingMan on March 11, 2024, 11:18:47[ and negotiations.

Well, from all the reports I heard Putin has so far said "no" to any kind of negotiation, no idea why some people think they need to suggest that.  :1f636:
The holy city breathed like a dying man...

MeltingMan

As far as I know, Turkey has signaled that it will act as a mediator. A greater gift cannot be given to Mr. Erdogan, who will not run again. The "white flag" remark was unfortunate. I think the Pope wanted to make it clear that Ukraine can ask for negotiations without losing face. For my part, I have seen and heard enough. Sure, negotiations can only be a first step, but in the end it could actually be worth it for both sides, unless you want a global war. :frowning:
En cette nation [Russie] qui n'a pas eu de théoriciens et de démagogues,
les pires ferments de destruction ont apparu. (J. Péladan)

Ulrich

Quote from: MeltingMan on March 12, 2024, 12:41:45As far as I know, Turkey has signaled that it will act as a mediator. A greater gift cannot be given to Mr. Erdogan, who will not run again. 

Yes, he keeps on trying:

https://www.euronews.com/2024/03/09/zelenskyy-declines-turkeys-offer-to-host-peace-talks-with-russia

QuoteTurkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, whose NATO-member country has sought to balance its close relations with both Ukraine and Russia, offered during a visit on Friday from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to host a peace summit between the two countries.

Erdogan, who has repeatedly discussed brokering a peace deal, said at a news conference in Istanbul following his meeting with Zelenskyy that he hoped Russia would be on board with Turkey's offer.

"Since the beginning, we have contributed as much as we could toward ending the war through negotiations," Erdogan said. "We are also ready to host a peace summit in which Russia will also be included."

Let's hope he will get through with it...
Because, according to this article, negotiating could be frustrating and fruitless:

QuoteWhy are there no negotiations with Putin? This question is not as simple as it may appear. Nevertheless, there are two main reasons.

The first reason, the "image of the war," is obvious, but Putin does not understand it, and no one can explain it to him.

The second reason, which is much more significant, is structural: Putin lacks the ability to take on binding commitments. In reality, it's precisely this structural reason that impedes negotiations.

The difficulty lies in the fact that negotiations with Putin are currently pointless because he cannot make any meaningful commitments. He can make promises in words, but in reality, these promises are worthless. Over his 20-year rule, he has promised practically everything — his signature is on the border treaty with Ukraine, for example. And he violated all of it. Over the past two years, he has broken almost every promise he made. Again, Putin himself may not even know about this. I suspect it would be a terrible risk for his subordinates to remind him of what he said a month, a year, or even a week ago. But everyone else knows that he breaks all of his promises. No matter how pragmatic and cynical a negotiator might be, what is the point of such negotiations?
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/08/04/why-there-will-be-no-negotiating-with-putin-a82021
The holy city breathed like a dying man...

MeltingMan

Quotewhat is the point of such negotiations?

Let's be honest: the war is devouring more and more resources, putting a strain on international relations, uprooting hundreds of thousands, promoting shady profiteers or those who want to profit from the suffering of others, while the upper class is little or not affected by the war. The most Ukraine can do is prolong the war. Who wants that anyway? The EU once received the Nobel Peace Prize. This is responsibility and obligation at the same time.  :1f633:
En cette nation [Russie] qui n'a pas eu de théoriciens et de démagogues,
les pires ferments de destruction ont apparu. (J. Péladan)

Ulrich

Quote from: MeltingMan on March 14, 2024, 11:07:46The most Ukraine can do is prolong the war. Who wants that anyway?

Well, there is one side which can stop their aggression... if that ever happens, negotiations would be the next step.

IF the Ukraine gave up their territories, do we really believe Putin would stop there? Or would he continue trying to "get back" to the old "Soviet Union"?  :?
The holy city breathed like a dying man...

MeltingMan

Putin, if you only watched parts of his speech to the nation, is still very much in the "Soviet Union", if you ask me. I saw many worried and sometimes fascinated faces among the listeners. The war target is the entire Ukraine. The election advertising for March 17th leaves no doubt about it. Although I believe that the Ukrainians are basically willing to negotiate, they definitely do not want to return under Russian or Soviet control, name it as you want. That's understandable and the real sticking point. So it will remain difficult.  :anguished:
En cette nation [Russie] qui n'a pas eu de théoriciens et de démagogues,
les pires ferments de destruction ont apparu. (J. Péladan)

dsanchez

Glad to see people in Germany pushing towards negotiations. Escalating this war won't end well and a NATO vs Russia war will mean the end of the civilization as we know it
2023.11.22 Lima
2023.11.27 Montevideo

Ulrich

Well there are some "voices" demanding it, trouble is they have nothing to say (they aren't part of government here)!

(The sentence "leading left-wing party" is wrong somehow, the SPD and the Green Party who are part of the coalition running our country, are rather "left" than "right"! And imho, especially in Germany, we do know how important it can be not to trust a powermad dictator...)

As to why negotiations are difficult, I already tried to explain above (post #110).
The holy city breathed like a dying man...