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I saw this on another thread this morning - and hope it's OK with @piggymirror if I quote this here because it seems like an excellent springboard for comparing how we are all reading the tealeaves.   :winking_tongue

And that could be soooooo interesting!   :cool

Quote from: piggymirror on December 23, 2019, 23:39:40Of course they vary all over time, but as of now...

1) Piggy In The Mirror - One of the songs where we get the closest to "hear" Robert telling us "I'm in the song and it hurts". The Top always got panned, very unfairly in my opinion. To me it was always a brilliant album. Only recently there seems to be more appreciation for it.

2) Pictures Of You - That 6-string bass is simply unforgettable. Never heard anything as close to an instrument actually crying, and I suppose I never will.
3) Closedown - Dunno why, but it always had a special something for me.
4) Disintegration - Needs no explanation.
5) A Thousand Hours - Never paid much attention to it, but it's growing on me.
6) Kyoto Song - A very dark song disguised in exotism. Hospitals are exotic, I suppose... if you look at it from a certain point of view.
7) Subway Song - Pay attention to the Three Imaginary Boys lyrics... and they're absolutely NOT light. In fact, Robert hasn't written many happy songs, and many of the poppier stuff has actually a twist, albeit not always evident. This song is about an assault...
8) Like Cockatoos - And this song is about another? assault.
9) At Night - Nice subtext.
10) The Hanging Garden - More subtext and... regret?
11) Cold - Regret... abortion? 
12)  A Strange Day - I love the middle eight guitar part, gives me the chills, Phil Thornalley and Robert were brilliant there. Live it loses intensity, I think.
12) One Hundred Years - The opposite of Disintegration ("It doesn't matter if we all die" vs "How the end always is").
13) The Caterpillar - Brilliant... and on drugs. And contains trousers as an instrument!!
14) The Funeral Party - Abortion?
15) The Birdmad Girl - The inevitable companion to Piggy In The Mirror.
16) Pornography - Robert realising he's doing no good. It's funny, but Pornography is perhaps (just a little bit!!!) less dark than Disintegration. I mean, the lyrics. It's the music that is darkest.
17) Boys Don't Cry - Lennon/McCartney would have been envious.
18) Charlotte Sometimes - Ouch! Wife-beating? Terrific (and horrific) song!!
19) Homesick - Sex!! The two consecutive "honey" are fantastic. But the song is dark as can be.
20) Untitled - Incoming death. Cancer? This is the darkest song ever, by anyone. Spine-tingling on a good day. On a bad day, simply unbearable.

I think @Ulrich has quite a few times expressed appreciation for many Cure songs fitting a number of different contexts and how this makes the songs more accessible / relatable to people in general, even if the meaning that's in it for them isn't necessarily the meaning that was in it for the writer(s).

And @word_on_a_wing has mentioned that she thinks RS writes songs "in persona" a fair bit rather than necessarily from his own personal perspective, in part perhaps to encourage thought (if I am paraphrasing that correctly?  ...if not please jump in and say it how you would say it!  :smth023 ).

Just to mention a couple of people's ideas in relation to this subject... and it would be great if others put forth their own here.  :heart-eyes

I basically keep coming back to intertextuality - how what we've each read / listened to / experienced previously affects the way we interpret another "text" (which may or may not be verbal - to me, an instrumental can also be "text" in the sense that it can convey meaning, often actually better than words - and with The Cure's music, I think both music and words often speak very intricately, which is a huge reason I enjoy their music).  Also, how we all generally relate from our own experiences / inner worlds first - and how our own interpretations often mirror us, rather than what was in the mind of the writer(s) - especially if there is ambiguity in the lyrics (/music).

So @piggymirror, I thought what you posted on that other thread was really interesting, which is why I sort of stole it and put it here, and I hope that's cool with you, but if not, I'll remove it...  Re (19), I re-read the lyrics and can see how you see that.  I always thought it was about drugs - and in this case, I'm not mirroring, just was assuming it, probably because of what I read last Christmas about the recording of Disintegration... :angel ...and in terms of the mirroring, I didn't read it as sex because this is basically sex as drugs, which isn't necessarily how I personally relate to sex.  But I can see how it would work for both contexts, and also that the brain regions / brain chemistry are related anyway.

Had to laugh at (15)!  :rofl  Thank you!  We like that album too, and for me, the title track is the personal favourite off it.  How are you reading that one (title track)?  It's very tea-leafy... ;)

(13) Thank you very much for this information re trousers.  Can we get more details?   :)   I thought it was really funny that in Babble, there was allegedly a dog pawing the keyboards somewhere...

(2) Try this: 


Personally I actually don't necessarily see the pain in this (because of how I'm wired), but a lot of people do, and a friend of mine won't listen to it because of this... when I listen to this section of Tabula rasa it gives me the same feeling as being barefoot in a field in the middle of nowhere during a massive electrical storm - something I've experienced - and the feeling of that is unbelievable, and so awe-inspiring and joyful that it is almost painful, but on the right side of pain - like when you're crying for joy.  It's moments like that you actually realise both that you're alive in an extraordinary universe and that you are here for a short time (as is true for every living being you love), and the joy and sadness of that are like two sides of the same coin, and perhaps that's why I can never see one without the other.

A lot of songs from The Cure get me to that same territory.  It goes with a quote from Sophie's World:

    To summarize briefly: A white rabbit is pulled out of a top hat. Because it is an extremely large rabbit, the trick takes many billions of years. All mortals are born at the very tip of the rabbit's fine hairs, where they are in a position to wonder at the impossibility of the trick. But as they grow older they work themselves ever deeper into the fur. And there they stay. They become so comfortable they never risk crawling back up the fragile hairs again. Only philosophers embark on this perilous expedition to the outermost reaches of language and existence. Some of them fall off, but others cling on desperately and yell at the people nestling deep in the snug softness, stuffing themselves with delicious food and drink.

    "Ladies and gentlemen," they yell, "we are floating in space!" But none of the people down there care. "What a bunch of troublemakers!" they say. And they keep on chatting: Would you pass the butter, please? How much have our stocks risen today? What is the price of tomatoes? Have you heard that Princess Di is expecting again?

    ― Jostein Gaarder, Sophie's World

Lots here but got to go do actual work... but would be great if this could result in a nice thread we can all pitch into...

I need to get me one of these...

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.LNcGmoe4PlJoQ4HNu5XzqwHaFs%26pid%3DApi&f=1)

...because I don't understand why so many people look at threads but don't chime in...

Quote from: SueC on December 27, 2019, 11:35:58...I don't understand why so many people look at threads but don't chime in.

Well I can only speak for me, but in this case I didn't wanna get involved (already mentioned some Cure songs and what they mean to me in other topics, plus also there were useless discussions back in the day, e.g. when one forum member refused to give examples (like a line from the lyrics) to indicate why he thought they might mean something which I didn't see in them at all)!

Also, don't forget in many internet forums there are many unregistered "readers" who never do participate.  :disappointed:

Quote from: Ulrich on December 27, 2019, 12:04:40Also, don't forget in many internet forums there are many unregistered "readers" who never do participate.  :disappointed:

Yes, that is exactly what I can't understand - why anyone would just want to read without participating at all, ever.  But that's how it is on every forum Brett and I are on.  HF is about the most participatory I've seen.

What are these silent readers getting out of this stuff?  :1f634:

I can understand why you don't want to re-hash - and also I've seen quite a few strong views with little actual evidence re lyric meanings on archived posts here, so I get why it gets painful.  Hopefully some new people will be interested.  I'd hate to write another long monologue... and I won't be turning this thread into one!

Quote from: SueC on December 27, 2019, 11:35:58...because I don't understand why so many people look at threads but don't chime in...

As its peak in 2008 curefans.com had about 20K posts/year. Ten years later we have 3K posts/year. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram rule now the social space and people has got used to just hit 'like', re-share and nothing else. Very few are interested anymore in writing insightful topic or replies. It's sad :( but it's what it is. To not go off-topic :) we can continue this discussion in another thread.

I will get back to your initial topic later :smth023

This is great, looking forward to it. :cool

(I won't go off-topic, just letting you know briefly that the same kinds of things happened on my "other" forum which turned much smaller when FB kicked in.  On the other hand, we got rid of some shallow, argumentative members that way and the community that remained behind is extraordinarily literate, friendly, genuinely supportive and excellent to have discussions with. :heart-eyes  There is no reason we can't make this the place, the genuine go-to site on the topic as well - it's so easy to be better than shallow media. :evil:.  You could do a better job with smoke signals even. If you wish to discuss this further, by all means start another topic.  ;) I'm not breathing another word on it here!  :))

Just a little thing on the general topic of this thread (because I really need to go to bed) - I was just saying this to another member of this fine forum and think I could throw it out there:  I read on Genius lyrics or one of those places that The Walk is allegedly about "romance from the perspective of a dog."  No citations and I'm not buying it.  Are you?  I don't know any dogs who kiss each other in the water and make their partner's dry lips sing, sorry.

I kind of think it might be about a romantic walk around a lake that turned into some interlude in the bushes somewhere, and now there's subtext when the guy says, "Let's go for a walk!"  ROFL  And he's suddenly very keen to go walking.  But that's just my mind constructing a situation that may or may not fit.  There are some puzzling lyrics in there.  Maybe I need to be on whatever they were on to understand it properly... :angel

Tealeaves... ;)

Piggy in the mirror

Shapes in the drink like christ (drink like christ = wine, also blood. Shapes= delirium tremens, spitting blood)
Cracks in the pale blue wall (pale blue wall= sky, horizon. Cracks=things breaking apart... OR ALSO cracks revealing hidden things, as in Bowie's "Oh! You Pretty Things" "crack in the sky and a hand reaching down to me/all the nightmares came today/and it looks as though they're here to stay")
I'm walking slowly and quickly
but Always away ("away" from... life? walking slowly means being a good boy, and walking quickly means "wanting to die"?)
Twisting twisting to the floor (drunkenness... or illness)

Flowers in your mouth and the same dry song (flowers in mouth=vomit... with blood?. Dry song=hangover?doctor's orders?)
the routine from laughter land
16 white legs and a row of teeth (people watching a sorry scene)
I watch you in secrecy (poetic license in both ways, and a pun so terrific it's scary, all in one short verse, and hiding in plain sight. This is the core of the song, of course. MOTHERFVCKING MASTERFUL!!!)

You're dying for the hope is gone (piggy tells it like it is... to himself)
From here we go nowhere again
I'm trapped in my face
and i'm changing Too much
I can't climb out the way i fell in (/piggy tells it like it is)

Jump with me
For that old forgotten dance (sex? drink? drugs? it all?)
The midnight sun will burn you up (sleeplessness)
Your life is cold
Your life is hot
Your life's too much for words

<insert great guitar solo here> :D

These occasions are such a relief
Another point another view to send
We start to talk
And it's all so safe
I feed you in my dreams

Footsteps on a wire (I'm playing a dangerous game and I know it)
High above my head
The stain reveals my real intention (stain=vomit?blood?)
I'm the waiting beast
I'm the twisted nerve (twisted nerve=twisted verse, nice pun)
As i dance dance
Back to the body in my bed (extracorporeal experience, drug-induced? drink-induced?)

Look at the piggy
Piggy in the mirror (look at me, this is me, sorry little me)

====================================================================================

Piggy tells it like it is. Pity that Piggy is, er... Robert. He really was in bad shape in 1983/84...
People actually think that Pornography is darkest, and sonically it is very much indeed...
But lyrics-wise, The Top is even darker, although the music is "happier" (except Shake Dog Shake and Give Me It, of course).

It's like on the Wish album credits, there is a quote from some author I forgot, saying "our sweetest songs are the ones with saddest thoughts".
The Top is a very fine example of this thinking.

This song is key to understand Robert's lyrics. This song is like an onion or an artichoke, it has layers (and then some).

Footnote: remember that on Cured, Lol said that Robert studied literature. My, I believe it.

Quote from: piggymirror on January 02, 2020, 16:36:42... Robert. He really was in bad shape in 1983/84...
People actually think that Pornography is darkest, and sonically it is very much indeed...
But lyrics-wise, The Top is even darker, although the music is "happier" (except Shake Dog Shake and Give Me It, of course).

Not that the title track or "the empty world" do sound utterly "happy"...  :1f636:

Quote from: piggymirror on January 02, 2020, 16:36:42This song is key to understand Robert's lyrics.

Is it? To me some of these lyrics scream "mind-bending drugs" (or should we blame it on Anderson's mushroom tea, he apparently brewed for them during the recordings?)...
Because, when you see "shapes in the drink like Christ" it might be a religious experience - or maybe just too much acid?  :angel  :evil:
 :-D

I think it's important when discussing song meanings to understand that we're often going to have different interpretations of lyrics, and that for many songs there is a spectrum of interpretations which can be validly made - rather than one "right" interpretation.  From The Edge Of The Deep Green Sea is a nice example of a song which fits a number of different contexts reasonably well (and we can go into that if anyone wants to), and it's often a good thing for a song to have that kind of flexibility.

If there is a "right" interpretation, I think the person(s) most qualified to give it is/are the writer(s).  I don't think any of us are mind-readers and can therefore arrive at the "definitive interpretation."  Literary criticism is not a simple, formulaic, cut-and-dried thing, and it recognises things like intertextuality, layers of meanings and a variety of different readings (e.g. feminist readings, Marxist readings, psychoanalytic readings, etc etc, and they can't all be applied to every text).

So I think while there's some nice ideas in @piggyinthemirror's annotations, they are not the only possible ideas, and lots of them are contestable, and were I marking this as student work (because I've marked Literature examinations, etc), I'd caution the student to look further and deeper and not fall into the trap of thinking there was only one way to look at it.  Thinking you've discovered the key to the author's other work is another trap - you're more likely to have discovered which particular colour lens you personally like looking through best, when you're looking at the author's other work - and this most likely reflects who you are psychologically, rather than who the author is and what their work means.

I think @Ulrich made valid points contesting @piggyinthemirror's interpretations.  He's reminding everyone of some key contexts behind the writing of this material, which actually do need to be taken into account.

If I'm sounding like the chair umpire, it's because I'm watching tennis with half an eye and this may be influencing how I'm stringing this together!  :lol:

Good tennis game - ATP Cup - Australia vs Germany.  Our guy (Nick Kyrgios) got your guy (Jan-Lennard Struff) in the first match, @Ulrich, but now your guy (Alex Zverev) is getting ours (Alex de Minaur), and it will come down to the doubles!  :cool

Quote from: SueC on January 03, 2020, 11:51:29Thinking you've discovered the key to the author's other work is another trap - you're more likely to have discovered which particular colour lens you personally like looking through best, when you're looking at the author's other work - and this most likely reflects who you are psychologically, rather than who the author is and what their work means.

Very well said!
This idea has arisen for me too, and I've come to wonder if music can in some ways be experienced like a playground for projection for the audience. 
I'd love if it was possible to know the true meaning of the lyrics, but it will undoubtedly be influenced by the lens through which the audience member is viewing it. I find a lot of RS's lyrics are so ambiguous that it seems to really make this more likely

You know something funny, @word_on_a_wing?  :)  I once spent much of my time attempting to decipher fairly inscrutable, but very poetic, lyrics (not from The Cure, lots of people do it ;)) as a teenager, and then I heard an interview with the person who'd written the lyrics, and he said he wasn't quite sure what he meant himself!  :beaming-face

I think the projection thing is very common when people look at lyrics, and text in general. I know I do it, and can usually tell (having acquired some metacognition) by strong feelings associated with it.  It's usually in my snap reaction to something, rather than when I take the time to do a careful, considered, intellectual analysis.  And you should have heard my snap reaction to From The Edge Of The Deep Green Sea, when I first looked at the lyrics!   :rofl  :evil:  When I sat down subsequently to look at it more intellectually rather than just emotionally, I saw that I had initially only seen one of several possible situations that the song could be about - and I knew why that was, in terms of my own experiences.  So I tend to distrust strong emotional reactions in myself, when interpreting stuff - because that can blind you to other possibilities.

Lyrics are often a bit of a Rorschach test.   :winking_tongue

Which has me thinking about another related thing - that a lot of people make the more serious songs from The Cure out to be ultra-sad and tragic, when that's not necessarily so.


I think it's more of a reflection on them personally seeing things in an ultra-sad and tragic way, rather than it being necessarily intended like that by the writer(s).  I think The Cure get a lot of psychological projection from ultra-sad and tragic persons.  I can't believe some of the comments I've read on YouTube, and on Song Meanings sites etc.

Quote from: Ulrich on January 03, 2020, 09:30:51To me some of these lyrics scream "mind-bending drugs" (or should we blame it on Anderson's mushroom tea, he apparently brewed for them during the recordings?)...
Because, when you see "shapes in the drink like Christ" it might be a religious experience - or maybe just too much acid?  :angel  :evil:
 :-D

Yeah, I had that impression very strongly when I made my way through Disc One of Join The Dots as well... some of the songs on that, I think if you sift for deeper meanings you may get disappointed.  :angel  I think their more mature stuff is so much better...

Quote from: SueC on January 03, 2020, 11:51:29If there is a "right" interpretation, I think the person(s) most qualified to give it is/are the writer(s)

Yeah, and as you said, sometimes even they don't know or don't remember.  :lol:

Personally, I do believe that Robert Smith (and other writers) try to shape their lyrics so that other people (the fans) can somehow relate to them. Whatever the inspiration may be (own experience, literature, poem, movie, other songs), the listener should take something from the lyrics (e.g. with those rather sad songs: the feeling that you're not alone feeling sad) and (in the best case) feel better about his situation, especially when at the concert he/she sings or screams along...

Take "Plainsong" for example. Whatever the exact inspiration was (a "real" or an "imagined" conversation for example?), RS wrote "...'and the wind is blowing like it's the end of the world', you said".
Thus, this part of the lyrics is not about the end of the world, it's just about someone saying something about the wind... but still, the listener might think about the end of the world - or about someone saying something similar (who knows?)...

With The Cure, it's often about mood(s) and if the lyrics fit, the songs are all the better for it!

Quote from: SueC on January 03, 2020, 15:17:52you should have heard my snap reaction to From The Edge Of The Deep Green Sea, when I first looked at the lyrics!  :rofl  :evil:  When I sat down subsequently to look at it more intellectually rather than just emotionally, I saw that I had initially only seen one of several possible situations that the song could be about

I'd be interested to hear more of your ideas about these lyrics.

Sometimes, in order to be honest, I have to take a big breath, and I'm doing that now. So here goes, @word_on_a_wing...

So, in preamble, From The Edge Of The Deep Green Sea is a musically gorgeous number that both of us were, independently, very drawn to when first listening to Show (for me, that was many years after my husband first heard it).  It's exactly the sort of musical arrangement I don't tire of with repeated listening.  You know how with many pieces, you can hear them too often and they wear out?  Some compositions are the opposite, and the musical aspects you're familiar with are so beautiful and mesmeric that you enjoy hearing them over and over, and at the same time you can dive deeper and deeper into them and always find something else...

When I was a university student, I once had a particularly boring assignment to do and took a break from it, in the library, to go read a paper, and that paper happened to have in it a feature on a world chocolate cake competition, which gave the recipes of the ten winning cakes.  I copied out five I thought sounded promising, and that week made one of these recipes:  French Provencial Chocolate Cake - made with a whole bar of top-quality dark cooking chocolate, some butter, sugar, eggs, coffee, brandy, natural vanilla essence and no flour at all - just ground almond and / or hazelnut meal.  It's an innocent-looking square brown thing when it comes out of the oven, but when you have a slice, it's culinarily orgasmic, and totally unlike any other chocolate cake I've ever eaten.  In the nearly thirty years since, I've never made the other recipes I've copied out - I always come back to this one.  I no longer make any other chocolate cake, and nobody ever asks me to, because this is so good.  I made it on the first weekend I ever spent with my husband, before we were married, when we were first getting to know each other, and he often looks back and laughs, and says that was really unfair, and that I'm a witch, making things like that and just in general, and of course he was going to marry me. :lol:

And some music is exactly like this too, like From The Edge Of The Deep Green Sea, or Plainsong, or Arvo Pärt's Tabula rasa or Allegri's Miserere - for those who've not heard that one:



I get goosebumps, and eventually tears in my eyes, every time I listen to this, and not because I'm sad but because it's so incredibly beautiful.  Some music can deeply affect you on a visceral level, as well as on an emotional level, and an intellectual level - all three of those levels, which makes it really profound, and really complete.

But even if you just take components - like, for instance, the bass line on Pictures Of You - some components are so good they only improve on you upon repetition; and then with that particular song you've also got so much more, in the way the other guitars and the keyboards are layering with it and making contrasts and highlights, and that it's also part of a highly effective rhythm section, and that the music as a whole is incredibly evocative, etc etc...

Quite a few Cure songs are like this, and From The Edge Of The Deep Green Sea is one of them. Funnily though, both of us had difficulty catching the words to it.  We each got about 50% of them without looking at a lyric sheet, and the general idea that it's about a fraught romantic relationship.

So I looked up the lyrics one day:

FROM THE EDGE OF THE DEEP GREEN SEA

Every time we do this
I fall for her
Wave after wave after wave
It's all for her
I know this can't be wrong I say
And I'll lie to keep her happy
As long as I know that you know
That today I belong
Right here with you
Right here with you...
And so we watch the sun come up
From the edge of the deep green sea
And she listens like her head's on fire
Like she wants to believe in me
So I try
Put your hands in the sky
Surrender
Remember
We'll be here forever
And we'll never say goodbye...

I've never been so
Colourfully-see-through-head before
I've never been
I've never been so
Wonderfully-me-you-want-some-more
And all I want is to keep it like this
You and me alone
A secret kiss
Don't go home
Don't go away
Don't let this end
Please stay
Not just for today
Never never never never never never never never never
Let me go she says
Hold me like this for a hundred thousand million days
But suddenly she slows
And looks down at my breaking face
Why do you cry? what did I say?

But it's just rain I smile

Brushing my tears away...
I wish I could just stop
I know another moment will break my heart
Too many tears
Too many times
Too many years I've cried over you
Over you
Over you
How much more can we use it up?
Drink it dry?
Take this drug?
Looking for something forever gone
But something we will always want?
Why why why do you let me go?, she says
I feel you pulling back I feel you changing shape...
And just as I'm breaking free
She hangs herself in front of me
Slips her dress like a flag to the floor
And hands in the sky surrenders it all...
I wish I could just stop
I know another moment will break my heart
Too many tears

Too many times
Too many years I've cried for you

It's always the same
Wake up in the rain
Head in pain
Hung in shame
A different name
Same old game
Love in vain
And miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles
Away from home again...


And this is lovely poetry, but when I got to the last verse the first time, I flipped, because the last verse would be consistent with serial infidelity, and I was like, "Oh, I've just found out one of my favourite songs is actually about serial infidelity! Grrrrrr!"  :evil:

And then if you read the lyrics of Trust back-to-back with that, in that context, you can get even growlier, if you're me, and go, "Man, what is this?"  In the words of the famous tennis player, John McEnroe, "You cannot be serious!!!"

Anyway, yes, it could be about serial infidelity, or actually about just repeat infidelity with an old flame when you're, for instance, married to someone else because your old flame was unavailable that way and you got on with life, and now you're trapped and you don't want to do what you might feel is an even more wrong thing and jettison your spouse, whose fault this was not, but you're unable to stop yourself from getting together with this other person because you're so apocalyptically drawn to them, and you know that is also wrong.

In general, because I got incredibly hurt in my first long-term relationship as a young person by serial infidelity, I am deadly allergic to songs about infidelity, especially if I get the feeling it's trying to romanticise that in some way, which is exactly what my cheating partner did - write himself as the tragic figure in all of the webs he was spinning, instead of waking up to the pain he was causing other people.  He had a pattern that continued after I broke off with him, that he always seemed to need to have someone he lived with, so that he could fully enjoy the all-around tragedy he was creating by falling in love with other people, and I think for him he couldn't fully enjoy a relationship, or a sexual encounter, unless he was compromising another person with it, or feeling that it was in some way forbidden, or able to write himself as the sort of tragic, poetic figure with whom women just fell in love, and how could he possibly deny them?  (He was an arrogant prat, actually, about that - and you also see quite a few musician types write songs of that tone.)

I am so, so glad that the person I married didn't turn out to be like that, and that we both just simply love only each other, and want only each other, and unlike what some people seem to think, it's not a boring arrangement at all, but a deep dive you can't have if you're always fracturing yourself with multiple affairs or even serial short relationships and never anything for the long haul.

But because that formative experience for me, my first romantic relationship, was painful like that, I've got this inbuilt ambulance siren that goes off in me whenever the subject of infidelity comes up, and I'm also very suspicious of a lot of love songs.  And I know that about myself, so when I've calmed down a bit after an incident of the ambulance siren getting set off, I try looking at different angles.

By the way, that second scenario I was describing, of cheating on a spouse with an old flame, I actually have some sympathy for, because that's potentially an awful situation to find yourself in, when the one you really wanted but you thought was unavailable suddenly becomes available and you've already committed to someone else.  Thankfully, I've never been in that kind of scenario.  Also, I do think that one can rise above poetic tragedy mode when actually confronted with such a scenario, and be practical and above all honorable.  I think living a double life isn't honorable, or fair on people.  I also think one can tend to suffer from grass-is-greener syndrome.  It's so easy to romanticise people you've never actually lived with for long periods of time, so an old flame you've never actually lived with for years and years is likely to be more of a fantasy construct in your own head, rather than you seeing the actual person... and fantasy constructs tend to outcompete realities, in the less experienced anyway.  So if you ditch your spouse and go marry your old flame instead, that balloon can deflate pretty quickly once you come down from cloud-cuckooland and re-enter reality.  And though I have sympathy for a protagonist and an old flame in that scenario, my biggest load of sympathy is always reserved for the actual spouse, who was brought into all this, and usually blind.

So anyway, when you do look at From The Edge Of The Deep Green Sea, there actually is a way of looking at that song that's not about infidelity to a partner, but about being in love with a person when it's in conflict with you in some other way.  You could actually look at that song in terms of breakup sex.  You've officially ended it because it just keeps snagging, but you can't stay away from each other, and you keep going back for more, against what you think is your better judgement.

And there's probably other variations in how you could look at that song, but right now I'm starving and we're going out to lunch, which I'm really looking forward to after three weeks straight of doing Airbnb and having a full house and not being able to go to town because of it.  There's a lovely Turkish bakery in York Street that makes sublime kebabs and there's a steak kebab with crisp lettuce and tabbouleh and feta and garlic sauce and sweet chilli sauce with my name on it half an hour away.  :yum:  I'll be back this evening if anyone wants to get into supporting evidence for various ways of looking at this song.

Thanks for your thoughtful ideas Sue

This is a song I also love, however the lyrics ...well, I suppose I wish they were discussing something more profound than a finite, romantic relationship (whether that be the infidelity scenario, or the break-up sex scenario).
The imagery created in the lyrics, for example with the dress sliding to the floor, seems to make it hard to argue it could be about something else. ...I wonder though...what if it is?

Ok, I acknowledge my own projections may colour my views, but some things I hear/see in the lyrics:

"I've never been so
Colorfully-see-through-head before"

"Surrender
Remember
We'll be here forever
And we'll never say goodbye"

"Wake up ...
A different name
And miles and miles and miles and miles and miles
Away from home again"

What is home?
Is home a place where you know the reality that we are not limited to this body/name/role/concept of self?  To be see-through-head, and wanting to remember "we'll be here forever" makes me feel in that moment he is aware of and abiding in that truth, that we are in fact infinite (is it drug induced? Some kundalini awakening? A profound dream experience?  I'm not sure).  ...then this experience of heightened consciousness shifts, and he slips back into a more limited view again...
"a different name" ...whose name? What if he is referring to his own name? Perhaps he had been floating in an expansive space, beyond concepts (including name) and then ...he's back in his body, and definitions of who he thinks he is, and who others think he is (including name) all coming back to awareness.

...so all this comes to mind for me, but again I acknowledge my own projections are likely influencing things. 🙂

Quote from: SueC on January 04, 2020, 05:07:37And this is lovely poetry, but when I got to the last verse the first time, I flipped, because the last verse would be consistent with serial infidelity

But this is just an interpretation. (Apart from the fact that these things do happen and any writer is allowed to pen lyrics about it...)

Quote from: SueC on January 04, 2020, 05:07:37And then if you read the lyrics of Trust back-to-back with that, in that context, you can get even growlier

I wouldn't. What's the point? Sitting on morale highground going "you're not allowed to write about that (even though my interpretation might be wrong anyway)!"?

Quote from: SueC on January 04, 2020, 05:07:37Anyway, yes, it could be about serial infidelity

It could be about many things, use your imagination! (Don't fixate on something just for your own bad experiences.)

Quote from: word_on_a_wing on January 04, 2020, 08:38:30"a different name" ...whose name?

"Same old game
Love in vain"

The name isn't that important, apparently the persona in the song experiences the same thing again (love in vain) with another person (only the name has changed)...

That's only my interpretation and it's of course 100% correct (because I say so)!  :winking_tongue

Quote from: Ulrich on January 04, 2020, 10:06:52

Quote from: SueC on January 04, 2020, 05:07:37And this is lovely poetry, but when I got to the last verse the first time, I flipped, because the last verse would be consistent with serial infidelity

But this is just an interpretation. (Apart from the fact that these things do happen and any writer is allowed to pen lyrics about it...)

Yes, exactly, and I said exactly this, so I don't know why you're repeating that now.

And yes, these things do happen and people are allowed to write about it.

It was also explained why I flipped about it - it's response to old trauma.  I'll explain it some more.  It's like a trigger situation. This is what happens in psychological trigger situations - you just may never have experienced this, because maybe you didn't experience deep trauma as a child - which then makes you equally triggered by a subsequent bad "home" experience - and of course if you grew up with deep emotional trauma and have complex PTSD, it makes you more likely to have subsequent bad experiences as well, which is ironic but how it goes, until you can sort these things out.  The triggers, however, won't ever disappear entirely, they just fade into strong (and then less strong) emotional reactions, which after living with that all your life you can often actually laugh about at the time, because you know how it goes.

A trigger response is not a response from the cerebrum, but from the limbic system, which is not under rational control.  You can manage it, like managing other things from the limbic system, for instance phobias, in a process that's a bit like herding cats.  You can't use your rational thinking to turn off your emotional responses, even if they're not useful emotional responses.  You have to work around it, by getting your cerebrum to shepherd your limbic system a bit.  @word_on_a_wing might be able to explain this more clearly for you, since she will be familiar with this aspect of psychology.

Quote from: SueC on January 04, 2020, 05:07:37And then if you read the lyrics of Trust back-to-back with that, in that context, you can get even growlier

QuoteI wouldn't. What's the point? Sitting on morale highground going "you're not allowed to write about that (even though my interpretation might be wrong anyway)!"?

Well, you personally wouldn't, but you're not me and you don't have complex PTSD. And I don't know where you're getting the idea I was sitting on moral high ground or saying nobody was allowed to write about this kind of thing, because that's not what I believe.  But, @Ulrich, I am equally allowed to write about my responses to this sort of thing - and as I explained before, this was a strong emotional response (in response to a PTSD trigger), a snap response, not an intellectual response.  Maybe read again what I actually said.

Quote from: SueC on January 04, 2020, 05:07:37Anyway, yes, it could be about serial infidelity

QuoteIt could be about many things, use your imagination! (Don't fixate on something just for your own bad experiences.)

And now I do think you owe me an apology, because in the very post you're responding to, I presented three different possible scenarios, one of which did not involve infidelity - so maybe read it again.  And I said there were probably other ways to see it too, but I was going to lunch, and that I would be prepared to discuss supporting evidence for each of these readings - and I've never supposed that these three possible readings are the only possible interpretations.

And I do have an imagination, thank you very much :cool, and use it on a daily basis, and am not fixating on anything - and I don't know how on earth you think you can support those ideas based on what I wrote, if you actually read it all the way through and didn't just kneejerk react to my own initial reaction that I described (and explained the cause of).  If you think the human mind can be entirely controlled by the will into only producing reasonable emotional responses, then the evidence is against you, including in your own reaction to my post... (unless you considered that to be a thinking response!)

Quote from: Ulrich on January 04, 2020, 10:13:26

Quote from: word_on_a_wing on January 04, 2020, 08:38:30"a different name" ...whose name?

"Same old game
Love in vain"

The name isn't that important, apparently the persona in the song experiences the same thing again (love in vain) with another person (only the name has changed)...

That's only my interpretation and it's of course 100% correct (because I say so)!  :winking_tongue

And that's the level on which I hope we're going to continue this discussion - that's far more conducive.

Quote from: SueC on January 04, 2020, 12:14:15It was also explained why I flipped about it - it's response to old trauma.
And now I do think you owe me an apology

Yes, I'm sorry, you did indeed explain it. I do apologize. (Maybe I shouldn't have read it at all, because you were only answering to woaw's question anyway.)

I guess it was mostly the words "flipped" and "growl" (because if someone does that just because of some song lyrics, something seems to be strangely wrong...) which crossed an invisible line within my mind... sorry again!  :1f633:

This has me wondering if males, even the well meaning ones, may not fully 'get' something in this ...a raw response that can run very deep for females.
I'll give you an example, just last week I awoke from a horrible dream where I was in a building (which I realised afterwards must have been a brothel), and there's a guy, and someone is saying to him to go with me because "she's a new one" (to this place). It felt that I had no choice. There was such a raw fear I felt at the idea of being penetrated by this creep (and it was close) ... very upset I protested (but my protests felt like they wouldn't change anything, which was even more terrifying), then I awoke.
...now I know that's a pretty graphic scene, but perhaps it sheds some light on what it can feel like to be female.  It can run very deeply, and I wonder if it's not just due to individual reasons, but societal reasons. I hope the energy of the Me Too movement continues, but even more widely, towards societal change.  In my opinion we need more strong female leaders to help find a way out of the shit the male leaders have got us into. And a heart-centred way will rule, rather than coercion and forcing things on others for an individuals gain (sound familiar to the themes in the dream?) ...meanwhile the consequences are scary, and currently feeling very close to home as someone in Australia with all these fires burning ...yet the male politicians continue to back the mining industry that is raping this planet in the here and now, and jeapordising the future of us all.
...no wonder these themes are haunting my dreams.

Coming back to the lyrics...
I have wondered at times if RS says things in a way to provoke us to think for ourselves. ...like if he does sing about what may sound like serial infidelity, maybe those lyrics are there with the intent of seeing its response.  ...will we adoringly and mindlessly applaud, or will we think for ourselves and say "wait! What the f*ck!?"

Quote from: word_on_a_wing on January 04, 2020, 08:38:30Thanks for your thoughtful ideas Sue

This is a song I also love, however the lyrics ...well, I suppose I wish they were discussing something more profound than a finite, romantic relationship (whether that be the infidelity scenario, or the break-up sex scenario).

I guess a lot of romantic relationships are ephemera in reality, whether or not people intend that at the outset.  People with the best of intentions don't always have a happily-ever-after, nor is that something that I personally think everyone should necessarily strive for - that happens to be what I prefer for myself, but some people are fine just having shallower relationships or less committed relationships or whatever, and as long as they are honest about that at the outset, and everyone involved is happy with that, that's OK.

What I think is not OK is when someone purposely hoodwinks someone else into thinking they're serious because they know that's the only way the other person is going to get involved with them, and all they're really intending is to make another notch on the bedpost and then move on to the next thing.  I've got friends who were deceived in this way, and if it happens a few times in a row, it can really put them off and make them think very negatively about relationships, or their chances of finding the long-term, committed relationship they were actually hoping for from the outset.  The confidence just erodes, and you spend your time as a friend saying, "Yes, unfortunately this happens, but there actually are decent people out there, don't give up entirely."  I don't like it when people use others and then just throw them away, or when people carry on with multiple people at once while pretending to each of them that they are the only one.

But two people with the best of intentions don't always make the long haul, because they may not realise until after they've gotten involved that they've got fundamental incompatibilities that can't be easily worked around, or they may find they don't grow in the same direction, and I think it's more honorable to end an unhappy relationship than to flog it to death, if you can't fix the unhappiness.

Now about the breakup sex type scenario that's one possible fit for From The Edge Of The Deep Green Sea, this doesn't necessarily mean the relationship was intended to be temporary either.  Sometimes, when people get together, they hit an impasse and separate, and they may have these highly emotional breakup sex scenarios when they meet up (because they remember all over again what they loved about each other, and all of their past road together and the grief of that ending).  Sometimes that's like a relationship's death throes, but sometimes too people can find a way to get past whatever they couldn't get past before, and they do actually end up going forward in a stable, happy, mutually supportive long-term arrangement.

I guess one of the reasons I really like the song, including the lyrics with its difficult areas, is because the human experience isn't always a neat one, and because it would be really boring to only ever hear songs about how wonderfully a particular relationship has worked out and how deliriously happy the singer is - it would kind of feel like living in a Disney world, to me.  Real life is about struggles and trying to find your feet and making mistakes, and having a few successes too when you get better at it, and not giving up.  That's why it's important to have songs about people's mistakes or their difficult phases, and why I'm grateful to people who present their own experiences honestly, without airbrushing them and turning their life into some sort of Instagram thing where what is presented frontstage is so edited that it's not representative.

Of course, not every song is autobiographical either, but like in novels, I still prefer songs to deal with the whole range of the human experience, not just those Instagram moments.

Quote from: undefinedThe imagery created in the lyrics, for example with the dress sliding to the floor, seems to make it hard to argue it could be about something else. ...I wonder though...what if it is?

Someone taking their clothes off in those sorts of situations kind of goes with the territory, and to me isn't itself a good thing or a bad thing, it's the context that's more important here for me, and there I think people are going to have a range of opinions with what they think is OK or not.

I think it would be entirely natural for that to happen in a scenario where people have a lot of history and a lot of emotions for each other - not just in relationships where the primary interest is just sexual.

Quote from: undefinedOk, I acknowledge my own projections may colour my views, but some things I hear/see in the lyrics:

"I've never been so
Colorfully-see-through-head before"

"Surrender
Remember
We'll be here forever
And we'll never say goodbye"

"Wake up ...
A different name
And miles and miles and miles and miles and miles
Away from home again"

What is home?
Is home a place where you know the reality that we are not limited to this body/name/role/concept of self?  To be see-through-head, and wanting to remember "we'll be here forever" makes me feel in that moment he is aware of and abiding in that truth, that we are in fact infinite (is it drug induced? Some kundalini awakening? A profound dream experience?  I'm not sure).  ...then this experience of heightened consciousness shifts, and he slips back into a more limited view again...
"a different name" ...whose name? What if he is referring to his own name? Perhaps he had been floating in an expansive space, beyond concepts (including name) and then ...he's back in his body, and definitions of who he thinks he is, and who others think he is (including name) all coming back to awareness.

...so all this comes to mind for me, but again I acknowledge my own projections are likely influencing things. 🙂

So I'm going to have to try to wrap my head around that last paragraph, and get back to you, which I will, because that's going to be an interesting discussion, I think. :cool

It's interesting you're looking at the definition of "home", and I think that's important.  If you define "home" as "the place you live with your spouse" then that may lead you to conclude that the song has to be about infidelity, but with a different definition of home, like as a place of warmth and safety and harmony and mutual support, then you can be miles from home when you're in a relationship situation that doesn't offer all of these things (because you've not been able to make it work out / work out yet).

We're veering towards the off-topic once more (but that's the usual thing these days, it seems).

Quote from: word_on_a_wing on January 04, 2020, 13:32:28This has me wondering if males, even the well meaning ones, may not fully 'get' something in this

Maybe, but then again a reaction like "flipping" seems "hysterical" (typical female??) when it comes to a "pop" song lyric.  ;)

Quote from: word_on_a_wing on January 04, 2020, 13:32:28In my opinion we need more strong female leaders to help find a way out of the shit the male leaders have got us into.

I don't think so. What did Theresa May do differently compared to her peers? What has Angela Merkel done that's totally different to what a male chancellor in Germany would've done? Nothing... (imho).

What we'd need is wise(r) leaders with an eye on the future for upcoming generations. (But let's discuss this kind of stuff in the "off topic" section, there is much space for political discussion, if necessary.)

Quote from: word_on_a_wing on January 04, 2020, 13:32:28I have wondered at times if RS says things in a way to provoke us to think for ourselves.

Difficult to say. Anyone got any (links to) old interviews in which he talks about his lyrics?

Quote from: Ulrich on January 04, 2020, 13:10:06

Quote from: SueC on January 04, 2020, 12:14:15It was also explained why I flipped about it - it's response to old trauma.
And now I do think you owe me an apology

Yes, I'm sorry, you did indeed explain it. I do apologize. (Maybe I shouldn't have read it at all, because you were only answering to woaw's question anyway.)

Thank you, I really appreciate that - and you know, it's really great when people aren't too self-important to say sorry when they've slipped up with something.  :cool  I'm sure I'm going to have to apologise to you at some stage as well, because I'm not perfect either, and I say unwarranted things at times too, even with the best of intentions.

And when something is posted in public like this, I think everyone has a right to read it! :)  Your good self included.

Quote from: undefinedI guess it was mostly the words "flipped" and "growl" (because if someone does that just because of some song lyrics, something seems to be strangely wrong...) which crossed an invisible line within my mind... sorry again!  :1f633:

No problems!  I do growl, actually.  And I'm married to a growly bear!  ;)

When I flipped reading those lyrics the first time, I briefly turned into John McEnroe, without the expletives and with better hair.  ;)

And I'm part-Italian, so it's completely normal to have dramatic reactions to stuff from that perspective - and makes life kind of fun actually.  It also makes for a deep engagement with literature - to me, "just literature" or "just lyrics" is an oxymoron...

Just as a brief aside in response to question of gender and leaders, I think it would be nice if what was elected in parliaments was representative of the population, for gender and also for ethnicity etc, instead of having mostly a houseful of white middle-aged middle-class/upper-class males, and ones of dubious at best character at that, as is mostly inflicted on us in this country, especially at the moment.

Besides that, I think Thatcher got us into just as big a mess as Reagan, and I think undesirable leaders come in either gender, as do better leaders.  My current outstanding leader award goes to Jacinda Ardern of New Zealand.  :heart-eyes  I wish we could annexe with NZ and have her instead of the androids we actually have here at the moment.  Be glad you have a better parliament than us, @Ulrich.  What we have here is the total dregs.

Much as I try to avoid looking up too many possible "song meanings", I do like this one:
https://www.songfacts.com/facts/the-cure/pictures-of-you

QuoteSmith explained the emotions behind the lyrics in a 1989 interview with Music Box TV: "It's about the idea you hold someone. It goes back a bit to a song like 'How Beautiful You Are.' The idea of you hold someone isn't really what that person is like. Sometimes you completely lose touch with what a person has turned into. You just want to hold onto what they were."

And this:
https://ig.ft.com/life-of-a-song/friday-im-in-love.html

Quote from: undefined"Genuinely dumb pop lyrics are much more difficult to write than my usual outpourings through the heart," Smith told Spin Magazine in an interview published a few months after the release of Wish
It's been reported that one line is based on Smith seeing his wife Mary in their kitchen late at night: "Spinning round and round / Always take a big bite / It's such a gorgeous sight / To see you eat in the middle of the night."
It's a memorable encounter that adds levity and specificity to the track.

Quote from: word_on_a_wing on January 04, 2020, 08:38:30This is a song I also love, however the lyrics ...well, I suppose I wish they were discussing something more profound than a finite, romantic relationship (whether that be the infidelity scenario, or the break-up sex scenario).
The imagery created in the lyrics, for example with the dress sliding to the floor, seems to make it hard to argue it could be about something else. ...I wonder though...what if it is?

Ok, I acknowledge my own projections may colour my views, but some things I hear/see in the lyrics:

"I've never been so
Colorfully-see-through-head before"

"Surrender
Remember
We'll be here forever
And we'll never say goodbye"

"Wake up ...
A different name
And miles and miles and miles and miles and miles
Away from home again"

What is home?
Is home a place where you know the reality that we are not limited to this body/name/role/concept of self?  To be see-through-head, and wanting to remember "we'll be here forever" makes me feel in that moment he is aware of and abiding in that truth, that we are in fact infinite (is it drug induced? Some kundalini awakening? A profound dream experience?  I'm not sure).  ...then this experience of heightened consciousness shifts, and he slips back into a more limited view again...
"a different name" ...whose name? What if he is referring to his own name? Perhaps he had been floating in an expansive space, beyond concepts (including name) and then ...he's back in his body, and definitions of who he thinks he is, and who others think he is (including name) all coming back to awareness.

...so all this comes to mind for me, but again I acknowledge my own projections are likely influencing things. 🙂

I'm coming back to this to ask you, because I'm not sure, if you believe in some sort of conscious eternal existence for human beings on some sort of spiritual level, beyond the grave.  Because I don't, and have therefore, all along, been necessarily answering you from the perspective that we all die and that this represents the end of organised consciousness for the individual we each are.

So in the universe I live in, you have the here and now, and however much is left of the fourscore and a bit you might get if you're lucky, and you have to make it meaningful within these constraints.  And unlike some (but not all) of the existentialists I've read (and I don't personally subscribe to that philosophy), I believe having a meaningful life within such constraints is eminently possible, because I think we can create our own meaning, instead of needing to have it handed to us on a silver platter.

I used to believe in some sort of spiritual realm beyond the material, in my 20s and into my 30s, as a result of an experience I had at age 14 and which I now see differently - because I've learnt that the brain can conjure up all sorts of things that seem extraordinarily real, as a form of coping with stressful circumstances and in the service of emotional survival.  So from remembering that universe I lived in then, I can perhaps relate back to other people who think there's something going on beyond the material.

But, living in the universe I do these days, I think you don't need to have an eternal soul in order to really love another person, or to care for them in a meaningful way - and I think that relationships matter, even if they're all temporary if you're looking with a long lens.

This bit:

Surrender
Remember
We'll be here forever
And we'll never say goodbye

...I read as a temporary suspension of disbelief and entering into a fantasy, and a common romantic fantasy at that - not as an allusion to eternal life.  From what I've read and seen, the person who wrote these lines appears to be openly atheist, at least these days.  Anyone here who can confirm that?

Quote from: Ulrich on January 04, 2020, 15:30:29Much as I try to avoid looking up too many possible "song meanings", I do like this one:
https://www.songfacts.com/facts/the-cure/pictures-of-you

Quote from: undefinedSmith explained the emotions behind the lyrics in a 1989 interview with Music Box TV: "It's about the idea you hold someone. It goes back a bit to a song like 'How Beautiful You Are.' The idea of you hold someone isn't really what that person is like. Sometimes you completely lose touch with what a person has turned into. You just want to hold onto what they were."

Thanks for digging those up!  I just want to respond briefly to the first one. I've not looked at song meanings for that one, but because I've looked at a fair few YouTube clips of that track live, I've seen a lot of YouTube comments where people are reading that as a breakup song, but I've never personally read it as that.  The idea of having "pictures of you" to me personally related to mental pictures, like this biblical idea that it's a really bad thing to make graven images of someone - and I didn't take that to mean making physical representations, but having an image in your head that's displacing the real person, and stopping you from seeing the real person, and who they are - for which you have to borrow their eyes, and have lots of communication with them, on an ongoing basis, since people are supposed to grow and evolve.

It ties in with the idea of having and sharing an authentic self, and encouraging others to have and to share their authentic selves.  The biblical graven image warning was on one level saying that you needed to really see people, really look, instead of thinking you knew who they were and running off with some fantasy construct in your head.  To not see the real person and instead see a projection is misrepresentation, and often an unwillingness to see and hear others, and to get to know them.  You can't have a meaningful relationship with a projection (or with a ghost from the past).

Quote from: piggymirrorIt's like on the Wish album credits, there is a quote from some author I forgot, saying "our sweetest songs are the ones with saddest thoughts".

That was from Percy Bysshe Shelley, The Complete Poems. 😉 👍🏻

Quote from: SueC on January 04, 2020, 15:53:27I'm coming back to this to ask you, because I'm not sure, if you believe in some sort of conscious eternal existence for human beings on some sort of spiritual level, beyond the grave.  Because I don't, and have therefore, all along, been necessarily answering you from the perspective that we all die and that this represents the end of organised consciousness for the individual we each are.

So in the universe I live in, you have the here and now, and however much is left of the fourscore and a bit you might get if you're lucky, and you have to make it meaningful within these constraints.  And unlike some (but not all) of the existentialists I've read (and I don't personally subscribe to that philosophy), I believe having a meaningful life within such constraints is eminently possible, because I think we can create our own meaning, instead of needing to have it handed to us on a silver platter.

I'll try keep my response brief as this is very off-topic
-I'm not religious
-nor do I endorse religions which encourage one to blindly follow a middle-man who is alleged to know God
-yet I believe ....umm, I'm not sure how to describe it....
.... take Quantum Physics for example. Now it's much too complex for me to say I fully understand it, but what I am struck by is how there are some mysterious and surprising goings-on throughout the universe. Why then would I hold on firmly to an idea that only what I see is real, and there is nothing beyond this.
...at a personal level I have also had profound experiences with lucid dreaming, and have travelled and experienced things as vividly as in waking life. So upon waking, how can I say with certainty that this is the only true reality? I don't because the fact is I don't know, but I'm very intrigued, and any chance to develop myself in ways that will allow me to listen more deeply ...yep, I'm in.
It's not about reaching something in the (after death) future, it's very much about the here and now.

...and I believe there are many ways people do this, though it seems that checking ones preconceptions at the door, and having a neutral and open mind helps
In my case it has been largely through kundalini yoga and meditation, which has helped strengthen my nervous system, and work on moving the kundalini energy up the central spinal column.  I have also been curious about mantras from different traditions, and studied/experienced Naad yoga (ie how chanting mantra can effect consciousness). I've mostly gravitated towards pranayam though (breath-based meditations).
For others it could be through having transcendent experiences while creating music, or art, or through nature etc.  Some also have such experiences via drugs, though this can be dangerous and unsustainable as the body's nervous system can struggle to handle it.

...can we leave this conversation there please, I'm aware I likely sound insane.  My bottom-line answer is "I don't know" ...I don't think any of us can say we do know.  But I'm someone inclined to lean into the unknown, rather than just believing the known is all there is.

"From what I've read and seen, the person who wrote these lines appears to be openly atheist, at least these days.  Anyone here who can confirm that?"
Yes, from things I've read I understand RS to be atheist.

Thank you for sharing with us some of your own point of view, @word_on_a_wing.  It's really interesting to learn about other people's perspectives.   :smth023

I'd argue that it's actually not at all off-topic, since this is a general Cure song meanings discussion thread, and because our opinions and ideas on song meanings are probably less important than the process which gets us there.  I think art has two sides to it - the creating of it, but no less important, the way people respond to it and why! :cool 

This is necessarily a very personal thing.  Out of all the arts, literature and poetry included, it's music which seems to be the one people relate to most strongly on a personal level, and which has an ability to communicate things above and beyond words, and to bring people together.

I also wouldn't worry about being perceived as sounding insane. I think this is a pretty friendly and well-moderated place as well.  I've said all sorts of things that I'm sure a lot of people would find insane, so you're not on your own there. ;)

Have you ever heard of the philosopher Berkeley?  He also was very intrigued by the lucidity of some dreams, and hypothesised that the whole world was just a shared lucid dream, being projected onto formless blobs of consciousness (us) and therefore internally consistent.  That idea, of course, takes a projectionist, and since he philosophised in a religious era, and was a religious person, he already had his projectionist.  I disagree with Berkeley, but that doesn't mean I can prove him wrong, or that I can prove that there isn't an invisible dragon under my bed.   :angel   I still find it interesting to consider these perspectives; it's good exercise for the brain and the imagination, and good practice to listen to other points of view in an open and non-judgemental manner; and, we might learn something!  (Though I admit I am extremely challenged when talking to fundamentalists of any description! That is very difficult...because openness really doesn't feature very strongly there...)

Talking about the nature of reality, and even about Cure song meanings, it's good to remember this famous poem:

The Blind Men and the Elephant
John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887)

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a WALL!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, "Ho, what have we here,
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a SPEAR!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a SNAKE!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he:
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a TREE!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a FAN!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a ROPE!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!


 :beaming-face

...and if these learned men from Indostan hadn't argued about how their own limited perspectives were the correct perspective, but instead had sat down cooperatively and made a synthesis out of their different perspectives, they would have come up with a pretty good model of the elephant after all... ;)

...and that's why discussions like this can be so incredibly valuable. :cool

Something from the B-sides thread, which I've finally been able to get back to today:  A real jewel of a song called Possession, which is a very cleverly written Jekyll & Hyde number and has become one of my favourite pieces from any or all of music, poetry, literature etc, on being human and dealing with your shadow.


Lyrics with a few notes on what I like about the writing...


POSSESSION

The other one feeds on my hesitation
Grows inside of my trepidation
Buries his claws in my dislocation
...I like how this is pointing out that it's our internal problems which feed our shadow side.  I like the wording - feeding on / buries his claws conjures predation, and growing inside parasitism.  The shadow side very much comes across here as an illness, a menacing entity, something that besets you rather than being invited or encouraged.
I whisper your name to lose control
...the name of the shadow side? ...also interesting because this wording could suggest playing with fire, and now actually inviting the shadow side to do its thing - letting it have the steering wheel. Just conjecturing - this one you'd have to talk to the writer about.

I take a step and over my shoulder
His roll-white eyes shine wilder and bolder
His snow-white thighs press closer and colder
Murmur in me to let him go
...this so neatly mirrors the first verse, both in its construction and rhyme scheme (AAAB), and in its contrast between the first three lines and the last.  Again, the first three lines sound like something horrible you'd want to avoid, and then the last one suggests an invitation extended to this thing - although more under duress in this verse... And I love the word-play, as I often do with this particular writer of lyrics - High is a nice example of that... we all know snow-white, but roll-white is a neat little construction and very cinematic; I'm seeing it immediately...
...also, the imagery in the first three lines does strongly suggest that what he sees looking over his shoulder is himself, some version of it, and at the same time I'm getting goblin vibes...

The other one thrives on my desperation
Fills me up with my intoxication
Sinks his teeth in my deviation
Suffering me to lose control
...the shadow side again comes across as menacing and opportunistic, and increasingly evil, and somehow with the imagery of teeth being sunk in, the whole thing is becoming vicariously painful... I think it's intriguing here to have the wording my intoxication... and likewise, the choice of the term suffering me to lose control - the term means allowing, but because few people use it that way, its more common usage comes across strongly at the same time... allowing me to lose control, but also, the pain of it... and a tension between being the person who is being parasitised, predated upon, haunted, hurt by this thing, and also on some level extending an invitation to it... this is so very well done, full of the contradictions and cognitive dissonance that come with being human...

Hold my mouth, taste his breath
Hissing, breathing are the same
Snakes its sound inside my head
Sickening me to let him go
The nightmarish imagery just keeps intensifying here... and the rhyme scheme is temporarily abandoned, but doing that, apart from probably being due to practicalities, also creates a structural contrast with the verses before and after, and a slight setting apart; so it all works really well.  This is thoroughly effective writing.  There's this overwhelming sense of struggle, of intrusion, and just layers and layers of imagery.  Note the ambiguity in the way the word snakes is being used - is it a noun, or a verb? - but you can read it both ways, and in various ways, and these things just pile one on top of the other, cumulatively, making a mountain of weight out of an economy of words.  Four short lines, one long and vivid nightmare.  This time, the last line is suggesting that giving in to this shadow side is like an illness.

Were these lyrics an assignment, I'd be getting the Freddo frogs ready to staple to it.  It's A+ already and we've not even finished yet.  You can't give someone more than 10/10, but you can certainly attach more than one chocolate frog to their piece and plaster smilies everywhere. :)

I take a step and over my shoulder
His pain-white eyes shine wilder and bolder
His stain-white thighs press closer and colder
Murdering me to let him go
This verse echoes the second verse, but intensifies it.  Roll-white has become pain-white, and snow-white has mutated into stain-white.  Again, brilliantly evocative imagery.  You can also look at pain and stain as an echo of the ideas already conveyed earlier, of hurt and shame being yet more vulnerabilities this beast can sink its claws into.  ...and now the shadow side is murdering our protagonist, or at least who he would (mostly) like to be, in order to take over.  This is full combat and a divided self; I'm also getting Gollum riding Frodo inside Mount Doom...

I try to resist the gruesome kiss
I twist to deny the blood-hot bliss
But I always feel myself becoming him
I like the way the first and second lines set up a tension between disgust/horror and blood-hot bliss (again, just such evocative wording here, and multi-component imagery from the same phrase)... it echoes the running theme in this song of the tension between being the victim of this thing, and being its enabler and on some level willing host...
By the third line, the protagonist becomes his shadow, like someone turning into a werewolf...

And the last thing I remember
It isn't me, it isn't me, it isn't me
But then it never is...
...and that's an excellent conclusion, both the horror of not being who you (mostly) want to be, through having turned into your own shadow - and the ironic reference to the excuses that can be made for this kind of thing, in the last line... I don't think he lets himself off the hook for this; it seems to me that the sense of being responsible for your own self rather than making excuses is also in that last line - but again, for the definitive commentary you will have to apply to the author! :)

Just excellent...

Quote from: MeltingMan on January 04, 2020, 17:26:46

Quote from: piggymirrorIt's like on the Wish album credits, there is a quote from some author I forgot, saying "our sweetest songs are the ones with saddest thoughts".

That was from Percy Bysshe Shelley, The Complete Poems. 😉 👍🏻

The poem's called To A Skylark.

That verse is about ideals, efforts, and fvcking things up.

Quote from: Ulrich on January 03, 2020, 09:30:51

Quote from: piggymirror on January 02, 2020, 16:36:42... Robert. He really was in bad shape in 1983/84...
People actually think that Pornography is darkest, and sonically it is very much indeed...
But lyrics-wise, The Top is even darker, although the music is "happier" (except Shake Dog Shake and Give Me It, of course).

Not that the title track or "the empty world" do sound utterly "happy"...  :1f636:

Okay, not The Top, that one's to be put aside Shake Dog Shake or Give Me It, yes.
Although it sounds very different from those two, it sounds more psychedelic.

On the other hand, The Empty World sounds as if it could have been on a Monty Python film. 
Just take the lyrics out, and it's boring. Unless there is something on it that I am missing.
That keyboard totally kills it. The raw, keyboard-less demo is much stronger.
As for the lyrics, it's supposed to be the second part of Splintered In Her Head.

Quote from: Ulrich on January 03, 2020, 09:30:51

Quote from: piggymirror on January 02, 2020, 16:36:42This song is key to understand Robert's lyrics.

Is it? To me some of these lyrics scream "mind-bending drugs" (or should we blame it on Anderson's mushroom tea, he apparently brewed for them during the recordings?)...
Because, when you see "shapes in the drink like Christ" it might be a religious experience - or maybe just too much acid?  :angel  :evil:
 :-D

Note that the line goes "I watch you in secrecy".
The author clearly unveils.

Quote from: SueC on January 05, 2020, 10:26:20Thank you for sharing with us some of your own point of view, @word_on_a_wing.  It's really interesting to learn about other people's perspectives.  :smth023

I'd argue that it's actually not at all off-topic, since this is a general Cure song meanings discussion thread, and because our opinions and ideas on song meanings are probably less important than the process which gets us there.  I think art has two sides to it - the creating of it, but no less important, the way people respond to it and why! :cool 

This is necessarily a very personal thing.  Out of all the arts, literature and poetry included, it's music which seems to be the one people relate to most strongly on a personal level, and which has an ability to communicate things above and beyond words, and to bring people together.

I also wouldn't worry about being perceived as sounding insane. I think this is a pretty friendly and well-moderated place as well.  I've said all sorts of things that I'm sure a lot of people would find insane, so you're not on your own there. ;)

Have you ever heard of the philosopher Berkeley?  He also was very intrigued by the lucidity of some dreams, and hypothesised that the whole world was just a shared lucid dream, being projected onto formless blobs of consciousness (us) and therefore internally consistent.  That idea, of course, takes a projectionist, and since he philosophised in a religious era, and was a religious person, he already had his projectionist.  I disagree with Berkeley, but that doesn't mean I can prove him wrong, or that I can prove that there isn't an invisible dragon under my bed.  :angel  I still find it interesting to consider these perspectives; it's good exercise for the brain and the imagination, and good practice to listen to other points of view in an open and non-judgemental manner; and, we might learn something!  (Though I admit I am extremely challenged when talking to fundamentalists of any description! That is very difficult...because openness really doesn't feature very strongly there...)

Three imaginary boys
Sing in my sleep
Sweet child the moon will change your mind

There's the fact that sometimes the strange, the completely unexpected, the nearly unconceivable, the thing you may have heard of but dismissed as so very much impossible that is completely laughable, turns out to be real.

In Spain a man spent €7,600 in lottery as he had a premonition. He went and won the lot, the bastard.

Quote from: piggymirror on January 06, 2020, 07:45:59Note that the line goes "I watch you in secrecy".
The author clearly unveils.

Huh? Unveils what exactly?  :?
And who's watching who? Is he watching the piggy in the mirror (=himself?), or you, me, all of us?  :expressionless:

Quote from: Ulrich on January 04, 2020, 15:30:29Much as I try to avoid looking up too many possible "song meanings", I do like this one:[snip - already responded to]

And this:
https://ig.ft.com/life-of-a-song/friday-im-in-love.html

Quote from: undefined"Genuinely dumb pop lyrics are much more difficult to write than my usual outpourings through the heart," Smith told Spin Magazine in an interview published a few months after the release of Wish
It's been reported that one line is based on Smith seeing his wife Mary in their kitchen late at night: "Spinning round and round / Always take a big bite / It's such a gorgeous sight / To see you eat in the middle of the night."
It's a memorable encounter that adds levity and specificity to the track.

Had the song been released in or after 2000, then that would have also been a perfect fit for Nigella - not sure if you ever got her cooking show Nigella Bites in Germany, but there was this gag at the end of every show where she was getting up in the middle of the night to raid the fridge, and she always obviously enjoyed her food:


Always great fun to watch.  Her crew could have applied those lines to her in her series - but the flavour of the music wouldn't have fitted.  Anyway, I thought, "Well, I know of someone just like that!" when I read your quote.  And that's a good thing - that music often fits many different scenarios besides the one it was originally written for.  :cool

Quote from: Ulrich on January 06, 2020, 13:20:43

Quote from: piggymirror on January 06, 2020, 07:45:59Note that the line goes "I watch you in secrecy".
The author clearly unveils.

Huh? Unveils what exactly?  :?

It's a literary figure.
 

Quote from: Ulrich on January 06, 2020, 13:20:43And who's watching who? Is he watching the piggy in the mirror (=himself?), or you, me, all of us?  :expressionless:

He is watching the piggy in the mirror (hence the title).
And winks a literary eye to you, me, and all of us.

Quote from: piggymirror on January 07, 2020, 06:09:58It's a literary figure.
 
He is watching the piggy in the mirror (hence the title).

Uh-huh. That does explain it all. Or maybe not.  :1f636:  :expressionless:  :neutral-face

Well, this is why you're supposed to support your views with evidence when you write a literary criticism etc.  If you just make assertions like, "This is about XYZ," you're not showing the process by which you arrived at your conclusions, and leave readers doubting there's much of a process, even though of course there might be one.  If you say (or imply) things like, "This is obviously about XYZ," without saying why, then it might irritate readers, especially if a number of different ways of looking at the subject matter exist (and this is often the case). It also makes for better discussions all around if people explain their thinking, rather than just state their views, and if they say things like, "This is how I see it," or, "I think/in my opinion" rather than "This is how it is."

Of course, this is the Internet, and many people aren't used to doing more than soundbytes online, so it might be a bit of a shock to see "extended answers" or to have people ask you for them!  :angel

But, it would avoid those games of ping-pong.  No obligation, of course.

Still, I'm interested in everyone's thinking here, for what it's worth.  :) 

And I too have occasions where I should be following my own advice.  ;)  :-D  :1f62d:  :oops:  :1f634:

(And in PS - I now get piggymirror's last post!)

Quote from: Ulrich on January 04, 2020, 14:04:40

Quote from: word_on_a_wing on January 04, 2020, 13:32:28I have wondered at times if RS says things in a way to provoke us to think for ourselves.

Difficult to say. Anyone got any (links to) old interviews in which he talks about his lyrics?

To get back to this, I found an old interview, in which he talks about his lyrics (Q Magazine, summer 1995, during their festival tour and during the making of 'WMS'):

"Lyrically, I'm finding it difficult to surpass Disintegration and Wish. It's finding subject matter that I can be bothered to write a song about. I know it sound naive, but it has to motivate me to sit down and take the time and trouble to put my ideas down on paper and then sing them in a way that communicates something to someone else."

It's always useful to have actual quotes from the actual author about their work!   :smth023

I was going to make a joke about if you have two X chromosomes, you get less writer's block / not being bothered...  :angel

But instead I'm going to throw in a real joke (which I am afraid is only vaguely on topic.)  What's the difference between an acoustic guitarist and a large pizza?  (The large pizza can feed a family of four.)