4Tour - your thoughts after the european tour?

Started by sullen, March 23, 2008, 19:03:22

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sullen

The point is that it has been YEARS of repetition, not night after night, year after year in this case.

japanesebaby

just wanted to add that i really don't mind people bashing, just as long as they have something on which to base their thoughts (as many here indeed has had).

and i just realized that saying all that about "fans wanting too much" and thinking like they "deserve more": i must have been the famous old undemanding fan there. :?   
so please ignore what i said... :lol:



@sullen: i guess that's all simply because there has been no new album so far. so that repetition should change when the album comes out - at least i can't imagine they'd still keep playing the same set then(!).

i guess the cure could have just as well decided to stay away from playing live gigs altogether ever since 2004. there are lots of bands who'd do this and who only do live gigs/tour right after they release an album, then disappear from the live scene even for several years.
that's not to explain altogether why there was no more variation in the set lists though.  yet this time there wasn't and so i think the only thing we can do is to wait for the album then(?). imo it would be different if we knew that there was not going to be any new cure albums anymore and these were more or less like the last shows we were ever going to get. then i would have been alarmed that they got stuck into this material for so long.
at least now there's much more hope that it'll still change. at least i am still optimistic about it.
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

sullen

Quote from: japanesebaby on March 25, 2008, 22:36:38

@sullen: i guess that's all simply because there has been no new album so far. so that repetition should change when the album comes out - at least i can't imagine they'd still keep playing the same set then(!).

I wish this were the only reason, but we never had this type of repetition on the off years before (90-91) (97-98-99)  (01-02-03) for examples....

japanesebaby

Quote from: sullen on March 25, 2008, 22:45:37
Quote from: japanesebaby on March 25, 2008, 22:36:38

@sullen: i guess that's all simply because there has been no new album so far. so that repetition should change when the album comes out - at least i can't imagine they'd still keep playing the same set then(!).

I wish this were the only reason, but we never had this type of repetition on the off years before (90-91) (97-98-99)  (01-02-03) for examples....

i wonder if the fact that this is actually the first time they are really touring more or less full scale BUT don't have an album out could make any difference(?). maybe more about that later...
anyway, some thoughts:

05 + 06 (only one gig) - it wasn't the repetition of anything yet since it wasn't repetition of '04 anyway.

07 - i really don't think this was such a completely boring year as has been stated; because mexico shows did have interesting setlists (at least to me). the asian shows: imo one has to remember that it was the first time ever that they played there - so at least i didn't expect them to go and play 'splintered in her head' or something. so maybe you can blame the locations there for the song choices, not the band(?).

08 - ok maybe it starts to look like repetition by this time, by some standards (=standards which look into the setlists and rate them as such higher than the quality of the performances itself).
but they didn't have the album out - whatever that means... (if anything - need to think about this...).
anyway at least it doesn't mean the past few years before 08 suddenly had to turn all sour just because so far 08 didn't bring anything hugely new and sensational.
maybe only 08 was to blame there? and then it could be the fact that the album didn't come out as planned.
maybe this is pure specualtion but if i had to choose from
1) they would have cancelled the european tour too, because the album was delayed again
2) they would play the shows but would have nothing much new to offer

at least i would have chosen option 2 there, any time.


look, i'm not trying to find whatever excuses i can just trying to prove they didn't have certain repetition there. anyway the fact that this time they had album in the works but had all kinds of delays with it which possible had quite a lot of effect on things not going quite as planned. they didn't have albums in the works on those previous off years which you mentioned so that might make some difference and might not make the comparisons quite as justified.
and moreover i still think that looking into the setlists alone doesn't really say much about the current state of the band. it simply doesn't say whether they played good or bad shows and thus it alone cannot imply they were somehow finished or in crisis.
imo one needs to see them live before deciding on that.
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

ernest newman

I have come to accept the tour is what it is at this point, and it will not change even in America. Somewhere on here I read some fans had talked to Porl, and he basically let it spill they will hit the road again when this album project ever gets finished. Knowing they will already hit the road again for the forthcoming album, they have little incentive to do anything for this US tour. The Cure don't rehearse much, in many senses they don't need to. But they are not going to gear up in a rehearsal studio for 3 days to learn new songs are re-arrange old songs not played in a bit before this US tour because Robert is going to continue to micro-manage the new album. They will wake up May7th, get on a plane to America, and  just fire up the engine again and play the Europe show in America on May 9th.

I think it was clear back in late September or early they did take a week probably and rehearse quite hard to bang out those 80 songs for Mexico (I guess of which 70 were played). But I think there still just riding that week of work out and will until they have a new set determined by the new songs. If they added one I would like to see Please come home start the show, it was a little rough in its early versions but that could be a great opener if they cleaned up the guitar part a bit.

So my best guess: Were going to get the final leg of the 4World tour and it looks like europe just did, pretty much in every city. You get your token version of Faith at Radio City Music Hall or at some Random Moody location where Roberts had a crappy day. Doesn't even Robert say something before the Paris Faith that eludes to the fact the band doesn't want to play it but he does so here it is. Then we get a couple months off, an album in July and promo stuff in July or so followed by some more touring, (maybe smaller venues in US finally). They will have to have a small tight tour after the record where the set is rebuilt with the new stuff, and they can do it all in 90 days (US and Europe) to keep it relevant with the release of the album

It is what it is

japanesebaby

Quote from: crowbi_wan on March 25, 2008, 21:48:36
And yeah, Robert should think of the fans that follow the band around (like me and YOU).  He's well aware that several people do this, and in the past has made note of request signs from fans that keep popping up at shows.  Now he just smiles at those holding signs for some dark song that we know they've rehearsed and all we get to do is read about it in the paper the next day.  But hey, maybe they'll play that one song 12 shows later at a gig you're not at. 

(ok i post too much on this thread but just a comment on this as it was a comment for me)

actually i'm not entirely sure i agree (about robert having to think of fans that follow him around). i'm almost tempted to say that no he doesn't have to give a shit about it.
i've always had a pretty mixed feelings about this issue, every time when i read people talking about it. because i've always thought that an artist (whoever he/she is) is never there to serve somebody but only to create his/her art. thus there is no 'must' for him/her to fulfill in people's requests or please the fans. well of course an artist who doesn't pay ANY attention to the fans and their requests can take a bit of a risk there and it might mean he'd lose a few fans down the round or end up getting everyone pissed - but regardless of this i still think an artist must do what he feels like he/she needs to do and in the end nobody can say anything about it. because even though an artist is a very public figure, he's not a trained animal or something that will perform tricks to you and sit or jump or roll when you tell him to. he really doesn't have to care - and that doesn't mean he was cold or ignorant towards you. it's simply his/her right.
so when i am there holding a request sign and he decides but to smile at it, i don't mind. ok it was my request and i surely would have wished it to come true - but at the same time i can't expect him to grant me any sort of wish or at least be mad or disappointed if he ognored me. he has the right to do so.
(and btw this has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of worshipping attitude i might have for him - absolutely not. i don't think everything he says or does is awesome or great or even decent and i can diagree about his artistic choices and all kinds of stuff. i have a right to bash him or judge him (because he's made himself a public figure out of his own will), but what comes to me telling him what to do or me insisting that he should  please me in some way: i have no rights in that territory. and this has nothing at all to do with my possible admiration of him. it's not that i'd say so out of respect towards him. it's simply his right as an artist, to claim that certain territory solely for himself.)

maybe i think like this because i have a background as a musician myself. i've spent years as a performing musician and i guess i've naturally come to think about these things quite a lot. i always think that it's of utmost importance to any artist to always RESPECT your audience - you can't ask for any respect back if you don't respect the audience first. but this is NOT the same as starting to act according to your audiences will - these are two completely different things imo. the artist really does not have to care about the latter one, if it really gets down to it. actually, most of all i respect artists who manage to remain completely respectful towards their fans but also never to give in to pleasing them, in this way or another. this is a tricky balance and i tip my hat for those who manage it. i respect that because it's a sign of an artist who knows what he/she's doing and what he/she wants, who shows he/she is not to be distracted from what he/she does. because any serious artists really can't start running around spending too much time on trying to figure out what people might want then to do: that would be a complete waste of time for them in the end.
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

rubcure

Quote from: sullen on March 25, 2008, 00:51:25
Saw today the figure of the songs of this tour.
58 songs played over 22 dates.

Dug out my notes from Mexico 07.
69 songs played over 3 dates.

And mind you, it was 6 months ago, that 11 more songs were played...

:smth100

:shock: Wow!! I attended 2 of the shows in Mexico and now I can see how lucky we were...!!!  :smth023

Thanks Sullen for the info.

P.S. Viva La Cura!!!  ;)




[center][size=10pt][font=arial][color=black]"...and the way the rain comes down hard is how i feel inside..."[/color][/font][/size][/center]

Descent

I counted 61 songs being played in Europe (without those only played at the soundchecks - Holy Hour, Doing The Unstuck, Last Day Of Summer...).

When you play in front of 17,000 people and see somebody holding a sign requesting a song, who would you prefer to please ? The whole audience or just a particular person ? It's difficult to know. The band pays a lot of attention to the audience reaction to certain songs and decides then if they could try a rare song or not. I was surprised that lots of people never saw the band live before, I think there's really a new audience these days in addition to the old fans. In that position, the band was right to play their most famous songs with a few atmospheric ones (To Wish Impossible Things, At Night...). I thought the whole worked well actually.


dsanchez

Quote from: japanesebaby on March 25, 2008, 20:33:10
i think the "setlist problem" only really affects fans that are going to see like 5-10 shows or even more - then the possibility that it might start to bother you that you hear the same songs over and over again

I have to agree on this with our baby. The "setlist thing" is something that probably affects people who saw/see too many Cure concerts, but certanly not to people who saw them a few times, or who never saw them at all.

Take as reference people in Asia (where The Cure actually just played for the first time... Japan 1984 was too long ago so...) or Australia (where they dont play that often). And not even mention Southamerica, where they played just once in Argentina and Brazil in 1987 and then just in Brazil in 1996. I mean, people who never saw The Cure or who saw them few times would be grateful with ANY setlist they choose to play.

What others said here is also truth: some bands dont bother to change absolutely anything of their setlist while touring. For instance, last year I saw three bands in Peru that played an identical setlist during their whole world tour: Roger Waters, Bjork and Soda Stereo (an argentinian band). I actually knew when they would even do the band introduction :) I knew what song was coming next, etc. Yet, the concerts were pretty good and I dint complain why they played identical sets each night, so why I should complain with my favourite band?

I dont know whats all this about complaining for playing the "same" setlist. As japanesebaby said in another post, some bands just play after releasing a new album (Depeche Mode, U2 for example). Is that what we want just so that we listen a new setlist? To sit for four or five long years?

In the end, Robert has the final word. And it was written somewhere, he is the artist -not me-. So wathever he wants to perform, I am really fine with it.
2023.11.22 Lima
2023.11.27 Montevideo

crowbi_wan

I still say RS should find a way to please all of his fans (those that go to many shows and those that go to one).  He's done it in the past and should be aware the expectation is there.  Look, there's no reason why they can't make some little changes between neighboring cities.  I'm not saying the Drowning Man, The Kiss, and Hanging Garden should be played every night, but they should certainly play them more than they did (at least every fifth show).  Even some of the lighter stuff should get played more.  What the hell happened to Doing The Unstuck?  It sounded fine in Mexico and the Prague soundcheck.  I just think he has it in his mind to be some pop superstar again and loves hearing teenage girls scream his name when he dances around like an idiot.  So the pop stuff remains a constant every night regardless of how shitty some of those songs sound without keyboards.         

robiola

Quote from: crowbi_wan on March 26, 2008, 15:44:10
I just think he has it in his mind to be some pop superstar again and loves hearing teenage girls scream his name when he dances around like an idiot.  So the pop stuff remains a constant every night regardless of how shitty some of those songs sound without keyboards.         

I haven't said anything until now about this subject because I only went to see one concert and I can't relate to the frustration of those who go to a lot of shows hoping for more variety and end up being disappointed... So even though from my point of view there was a bit too much complaining, especially when you think of how many bands don't vary the setlists at all, I kept my mouth shut.
But this judgement goes beyond the variety issue and it seems a bit harsh to me, crowbi wan... It's normal and to be expected that they (or any band) should play their most popular songs at concerts -- that's what most people are there for. And they didn't just play the light poppy radio-friendly stuff, they also played songs that had a lot people near me looking around with  "What's this?" looks on their faces while I was squealing like an idiot. I thought there was a good balance between the two, enough to satisfy both kinds of fans.

I don't mean to come off as one of those "don't you touch my Robert or I'll kick your butt" fans, you're most certainly entitled to state your impression -- it just doesn't really ring true to me.

crowbi_wan

Quote from: robiola on March 26, 2008, 20:54:05
Quote from: crowbi_wan on March 26, 2008, 15:44:10
I just think he has it in his mind to be some pop superstar again and loves hearing teenage girls scream his name when he dances around like an idiot.  So the pop stuff remains a constant every night regardless of how shitty some of those songs sound without keyboards.         

It's normal and to be expected that they (or any band) should play their most popular songs at concerts -- that's what most people are there for.

I don't think it's normal or expected for The Cure to play their most popular songs (at least not on back-to-back-to back nights) because they generally haven't.  If anything it's expected for them to mix it up more, because they are/were one of the few bands that do this.  Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but it's just how I feel.  Again, all this does not mean I didn't enjoy the shows or have any hesitation about the US tour.  Certainly not.  I'm very much looking forward to seeing them multiple times and know I'll enjoy each concert regardless of the songs Robert selects.  There is more to the shows than just the songs the play.     

sullen

Quote from: crowbi_wan on March 26, 2008, 15:44:10
I still say RS should find a way to please all of his fans (those that go to many shows and those that go to one).  He's done it in the past and should be aware the expectation is there.  Look, there's no reason why they can't make some little changes between neighboring cities.  I'm not saying the Drowning Man, The Kiss, and Hanging Garden should be played every night, but they should certainly play them more than they did (at least every fifth show).  Even some of the lighter stuff should get played more.  What the hell happened to Doing The Unstuck?  It sounded fine in Mexico and the Prague soundcheck.  I just think he has it in his mind to be some pop superstar again and loves hearing teenage girls scream his name when he dances around like an idiot.  So the pop stuff remains a constant every night regardless of how shitty some of those songs sound without keyboards. 

I think you hit this 100% with this comment.

And he knows damn well that *ALOT* of his fans are of the diehard/tour following breed.

carycameron

Quote from: sullen on March 27, 2008, 00:03:03
Quote from: crowbi_wan on March 26, 2008, 15:44:10
I still say RS should find a way to please all of his fans (those that go to many shows and those that go to one).  He's done it in the past and should be aware the expectation is there.  Look, there's no reason why they can't make some little changes between neighboring cities.  I'm not saying the Drowning Man, The Kiss, and Hanging Garden should be played every night, but they should certainly play them more than they did (at least every fifth show).  Even some of the lighter stuff should get played more.  What the hell happened to Doing The Unstuck?  It sounded fine in Mexico and the Prague soundcheck.  I just think he has it in his mind to be some pop superstar again and loves hearing teenage girls scream his name when he dances around like an idiot.  So the pop stuff remains a constant every night regardless of how shitty some of those songs sound without keyboards. 

I think you hit this 100% with this comment.

And he knows damn well that *ALOT* of his fans are of the diehard/tour following breed.


What percentage of the fans at the concerts are actually following them from city to city?  I would guess quite little.

japanesebaby

Quote from: sullen on March 27, 2008, 00:03:03
Quote from: crowbi_wan on March 26, 2008, 15:44:10
I still say RS should find a way to please all of his fans (those that go to many shows and those that go to one).  He's done it in the past and should be aware the expectation is there.  Look, there's no reason why they can't make some little changes between neighboring cities.  I'm not saying the Drowning Man, The Kiss, and Hanging Garden should be played every night, but they should certainly play them more than they did (at least every fifth show).  Even some of the lighter stuff should get played more.  What the hell happened to Doing The Unstuck?  It sounded fine in Mexico and the Prague soundcheck.  I just think he has it in his mind to be some pop superstar again and loves hearing teenage girls scream his name when he dances around like an idiot.  So the pop stuff remains a constant every night regardless of how shitty some of those songs sound without keyboards. 

I think you hit this 100% with this comment.

And he knows damn well that *ALOT* of his fans are of the diehard/tour following breed.

well, i never said he wouldn't know a lot of fans follow him. of course he knows and knows it very well. but it's not about knowing or not knowing: even if/when he knows, he can still decide to prefer those fans that are casual concert-goers/people who only go to one show AND there's still nothing absolutely wrong with it. the truth is that it's simply impossible to please everyone: the audience does NOT consist on die-hard fans only, so he has o consider other people too. so i myself cannot think like he was "betraying his fans" or "letting his fans down" by doing this: maybe he is letting ME down but 'me' is not the same as 'all the fans'. i'm not the model of every concert-goer there so why should my opinion count any more than someone else's?

think of it this way: the idea that he should "of course" decide please die-hard fans instead of a regular concert-goer actually derives from the way of thinking where a die-hard fan is more "valuable customer" than a regular concert-goer. well, maybe a die-hard fan spent more time and money and effort on the band over the years, true. BUT can we still think that he's a "better fan" than someone else who oly decides to go to one single concert every now and then?
what i'm trying to say is that if we think he somehow naturally "should" prefer die-hard fans, then we actually silently do think that they are more valuable fans than the rest of the folk there.
and i'm not sure that's true. we can't rate the audience.

and: the problem for the artist is that even if he wanted to please people as much as he can, he already knows that he can't please everyone. so he must make a choice. and if he chooses in favor of the majority, how can we judge him for it? if he'd choose in favor for his die-hard fans i'm sure he would choose the smaller half of the audience. then there would be a lot more people complaining. and is he'd then say "yeah but i wanted to favor the people who follow me around and really invest their time and money on me", then it would be easy for everyone to shout: "boo! that's elitistic!"
so i'm not sure it's necessarily an easy choice.


look, i perfectly well understand everything you've said (sullen & crowbi) so i'm not arguing or speaking in favor of the poppy set lists. i'm just talking about the big picture. even though i understand fans being displeased (and i do understand because i've been displeased myself too!), i still think that in the end it's pretty selfish from fans to think that the artist somehow "must" personally please them and them only. if we talk about pleasing someone, then he really doesn't have to please anyone else than himself there - THAT's how selfish it really is, from the artists' point of view. and yes it sounds bad when put that way but i do think that deep down it's actually true. the artist decides what he wants to do and even if i'm displeased with it, i don't think i can say he did something "wrong" there.
(that is not to saying i wouldn't like him to play set lists that are aimed at die-hard fans - i certainly would. but imo, what i want is not relevant, really.)

@carycameron: indeed, would be interesting to see numbers but i think the percentage is definitely not in favor of die-hard fans there. so i wouldn't bet my money on myself here!
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine