Pronouns

Started by dsanchez, September 12, 2023, 01:57:32

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dsanchez

There's an ongoing debate specially in the US (certainly this is not a relevant topic here in Central Europe) in the use of pronouns. For example, transgender people would refer themselves with a pronoun different than their sex at birth. Take for example Porl Thompson who is now Pearl Thompson (she). I am totally fine with that. Yes, I will refer Pearl as she.

But I personally find absurd people who want to be referred as they/them. Is like you Ulrich coming tomorrow and saying you are "they" :) So no, I won't be using a plural pronoun to refer to a singular person. Clarified here

Is this a debate at all where you live? Have you encountered anyone who wanted to be referred as they/them?
2023.11.22 Lima
2023.11.27 Montevideo

dsanchez

For context, some opinion leaders thoughts on this here and here, and the LGBTQIA Resource Center:

https://lgbtqia.ucdavis.edu/educated/pronouns-inclusive-language
2023.11.22 Lima
2023.11.27 Montevideo

dsanchez

Quote from: dsanchez on September 12, 2023, 01:57:32There's an ongoing debate specially in the US (certainly this is not a relevant topic here in Central Europe) in the use of pronouns. For example, transgender people would refer themselves with a pronoun different than their sex at birth. Take for example Porl Thompson who is now Pearl Thompson (she). I am totally fine with that. Yes, I will refer Pearl as she.

But I personally find absurd peuple who want to be referred as they/them.Is like you Ulrich coming tomorrow and saying you are "they" :) which to me is ridiculous. So no, I won't be using a plural pronoun to refer to a singular person.

Is this a debate at all where you live?

By the way. It was not a good idea to publish this thought on our @curefans Twitter account - This should have been posted with the clarification that is a personal opinion or not posted at all (thanks to our friend @CureFanDoc for sharing her thoughts on this on a DM), as some people are very sensitive with this topic, so we will refrain in the future of posting this on Twitter and will instead stick to this corner for such discussion.

Here are some reactions on Twitter - yes, some people will accuse you of "transphobic" and "bigot" if you don't refer to singular people as "they/them":




🤷
2023.11.22 Lima
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Ulrich

Quote from: dsanchez on September 12, 2023, 10:20:21By the way. It was not a good idea to publish this thought on our @curefans Twitter account...
...some people will accuse you of "transphobic" and "bigot" ...

Indeed, not a good idea. I can't understand reactions like "delete your profile". :unamused:

Could you please PM me with the names & contact details of those persons with these "over the top" reactions? Because then I can "block" them on any channels I use!!  :pouting-face

Btw, normally I'm not the grammar police, but "they/them" is definitely plural, not singular. Ask your teacher(s) if you don't believe it.
Theorize and talk yourself
Until you're tired and old

dsanchez

Quote from: Ulrich on September 12, 2023, 10:42:51Could you please PM me with the names & contact details of those persons with these "over the top" reactions? Because then I can "block" them on any channels I use!!  :pouting-face

Don't worry. the best you can do with this people is to ignore them. It's interesting people accuse you of "hate", "bigot", "transphobic" etc. yet they are the ones spreading hate with their comments. They can do this under the anonymity of a social network like Twitter, but I doubt they would do this F2F or here on curefans.com - where they would be quickly banned due our anti-hate rules :)
2023.11.22 Lima
2023.11.27 Montevideo

Ulrich

Quote from: dsanchez on September 12, 2023, 10:50:50Don't worry. the best you can do with this people is to ignore them.

Yes of course, that was my thinking behind this. If I block them, I won't read their comments ever. (I'm not on twitter, but on FB and such.)


Quote from: dsanchez on September 12, 2023, 10:50:50I doubt they would do this F2F or here on curefans.com - where they would be quickly banned due our anti-hate rules :)

:smth023

I don't really get how some people are too stupid to reply to a discussion with a well-thought-out comment instead of drivel like above examples...  :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

Plus I wanna add one thing: I do respect the trans persons I met (one is very close) - none of these ever asked me to be addressed as "they/them"!
Theorize and talk yourself
Until you're tired and old

MeltingMan

Quote from: dsanchezSo no, I won't be using a plural pronoun to refer to a singular person.

Hmm. In the German language, this was previously considered impolite if the person was a stranger and/or significantly older. I don't want to judge whether this represents a win or loss. The "they" is definitely on the decline, at least in Germany. 🤔
Il y a, en Russie, une unité d'aspiration sans ana-
logue en Europe, cette force invincible du peuple
jeune, en croissance, qui lui assure la prochaine
hégémonie: mais le caractère russe, plus ingénu
qu'aucun autre, n'a point de défense contre les poi-
sons de la philosophie allemande. (J. Péladan)

Ulrich

Quote from: MeltingMan on September 12, 2023, 12:46:09The "they" is definitely on the decline, at least in Germany. 🤔

This can get "lost in translation", because "they" means "sie" (plural, i.e. several persons - not "sie" as in "she", singular), while the German "Sie" (as a "form of address") can only be translated with "you" or maybe the antiquated "ye" or "thou"!
Theorize and talk yourself
Until you're tired and old

Ulrich

Nick Cave wrote something as a reply to a fan's question in his "Red Hand Files" recently, which I really liked (I have a lot of respect for him and his compassion for his fans):

QuoteHow do you feel about your transgender fans or trans people in general? As a young trans woman, I've had equally positive and negative gender-related experiences with other fans of your work...

...as a performer, however, this concern for the wellbeing of others appears to extend to my fans. In essence, The Red Hand Files, for better or for worse, is a kind of unhinged expansion of that inclination – a weird paternal instinct toward my audience, gone berserk.
I also have another impulse, which I hope is more common, and that is to treat everyone with equal love and respect, regardless of their race, gender, sexuality, religion or anything else. I essentially see the world as a collection of individuals, each unique in their brokenness, who have at their core a common and binding sameness of spirit. So, Amelia, although I am slightly uncertain as to where I am supposed to stand on such things, or rather why I am supposed to stand anywhere, I will say this – I love my trans fans fully and wish them the best, as I love all my fans and wish them the best. I feel toward them that same duty of care that I feel toward all those who exist within my sphere. I also wish for them to receive every right inherent to them and for them to lead lives of dignity and freedom, devoid of violence and prejudice. I wish these things as I wish them for all people.
https://www.theredhandfiles.com/how-do-you-feel/
Theorize and talk yourself
Until you're tired and old

dsanchez

Quote from: Ulrich on September 12, 2023, 17:22:14I love my trans fans fully and wish them the best, as I love all my fans and wish them the best. I feel toward them that same duty of care that I feel toward all those who exist within my sphere. I also wish for them to receive every right inherent to them and for them to lead lives of dignity and freedom, devoid of violence and prejudice. I wish these things as I wish them for all people.

Amen. Who could disagree with this?
2023.11.22 Lima
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nerdiee

I support the LGBTQ community, including transgender people (obviously, this is their choice, and if they say "from now on I'm comfortable with these pronouns" then I understand them, I respect their comfort and treat them the way they feel comfortable

in my country everything is bad about this...a ban on LGBT propaganda, a ban on gender reassignment... terrible, they classed homosexuality as a mental disorder
teach me how to swim at the same deep water as you

dsanchez

Quote from: nerdiee on September 12, 2023, 22:12:24I support the LGBTQ community, including transgender people (obviously, this is their choice, and if they say "from now on I'm comfortable with these pronouns" then I understand them, I respect their comfort and treat them the way they feel comfortable

And so do we. Equal rights for people in general, regardless of their gender.
2023.11.22 Lima
2023.11.27 Montevideo

MeltingMan

Quote from: UlrichThis can get "lost in translation"

Really?! The "they" is quite understood. The following text proves it:

Quote from: Oxford University Press, 2013they pron. [third person pl.] 1 used to refer to
two or more people or things previously
mentioned or easily identified. 2 people
in general. 3 used to refer to a person
whose sex is not specified (in place of
either 'he' or 'he or she').
- origin Old Norse

Many people now think that the
traditional use of he to refer to a
person of either sex is old-fashioned and
sexist, but the alternative, he or she, is
rather clumsy. For this reason, they and
its counterparts them and their have
become acceptable instead, as in anyone
can join if they are a resident
and each
to their own.
Il y a, en Russie, une unité d'aspiration sans ana-
logue en Europe, cette force invincible du peuple
jeune, en croissance, qui lui assure la prochaine
hégémonie: mais le caractère russe, plus ingénu
qu'aucun autre, n'a point de défense contre les poi-
sons de la philosophie allemande. (J. Péladan)

admin

#13
Quote from: MeltingMan on September 13, 2023, 10:39:18
Quote from: Oxford University Press, 2013they pron. [third person pl.] 1 used to refer to
two or more people or things previously
mentioned or easily identified.
This will probably sound hard to believe, but some people will actually want to be referred themselves as they (yes, plural) and if you don't comply with that, you will be accused of transphobia, spreading hate, etc. I am not kidding. Normal and cordial discussion seem to be restricted to communities like this where rules can be enforced, but forget about that in tik tok, twitter, fb etc.

Now some humor :)


Ulrich

Quote from: MeltingMan on September 13, 2023, 10:39:18Really?! The "they" is quite understood. The following text proves it

Dsanchez already explained this in the first posting. What I meant was the (typical) German difference between "they" ("sie", plural), "she" ("sie", singular) and "You, thou, ye" ("Sie" als Anrede!). See how this can get complicated for non-German speakers?   :?

To add some humour too (which won't be understood by non-Germans): "You can say "you" to me" ("Sie können mich duzen"). ;)
Theorize and talk yourself
Until you're tired and old