Author Topic: What do you think of Lol?  (Read 18760 times)

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Offline Ulrich

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2016, 14:16:44 »
I read recently that Robert Smith said that, had he been Lol's lawyer when Tolhurst tried to sue him, he'd have won the case...

Where did you read that?
It is known that Lol was the "scapegoat" and aim of much nonsense by the band... but, how could this lead to him winning that case? As far as I know it was a case about "ownership of the band" plus "royalties/cuts from the profits". Lol himself soon realised it was wrong to sue, as he'd signed all the contracts himself. No judge/lawyer could argue much about that fact. Even if the band "bullied" him, doesn't change his increasing lack of input (or the aforementioned limitations on the instruments).

I think Robert was more than happy to accept Lol's friendship again when the olive branch was offered because he knew what a t**t he'd been to him in the past when he should really have helped him more. 

Mind your language! We had several forum members banned for using such words...

I do agree that Robert is probably happy to have renewed the friendship with Lol. In my opinion mainly because Lol had the greatness to apologise for what he did (e.g. the above mentioned legal action)!

I think it was Roger O'Donnell who later admitted that Lol wrote Homesick

Yes. Read about it in that topic for example (post #5):
http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=7896.0

it seems to me that everyone who was ever in that band followed Robert's lead or else.  Those who didn't, left or got pushed.

Robert often said he needed a "working band" (i.e. people who e.g. go crazy during a tour aren't really helpful). We all know it was mostly him who had a "vision" (creatively speaking) for the band and followed it.

Btw, apparently it was the others (band members) who threatened to leave the band in late '88 if Lol would go on tour with them! Thus Robert had to do something...

Lol, nowadays, sees himself as the cause:
"So as the years passed communications and friendship returned. Eventually all the nonsense and sadness and pain I had caused myself and the others dissolved ."
http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=7896.0

I think the way he was treated was truly vile.

I think both sides have made their mistakes. Lol was willing to forgive. Robert too.
All's good as far as I can tell.
but memory's not life... and it's not love.


Offline MeltingMan

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2016, 17:32:25 »
My opinion is that Lol embodied the experimental side of The Cure's music-
at least for a while. The development and improvement of the early synthesizers
were quite rapid, but it's not true that those instruments always have an impact
on your creativity. Apart from that, it's a noted feature of bullying to delegate tasks
to someone else who hasn't been actually trained for, though he had a number of keyboard
lessons. However, he was and still is interested in electronic instruments as he pointed out
in his book. When he left The Cure the feeling of relief didn't last for long (Roger's temporary
departure), so he wasn't alone responsible for tensions inside the group.
Wenn das Spätjahr kommt, werf ich mich in einen
Wagen, ziehe die Decke des Wagenleders hoch zu
meinem Kopf, hülle mich in einen Mantel - so daß nur
meine Augen übrig bleiben, mit denen nach Euch ich
greife.
(Sören Kierkegaard)

Offline Ulrich

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2016, 19:07:43 »
Apart from that, it's a noted feature of bullying to delegate tasks to someone else who hasn't been actually trained for...

Who delegated what to whom?  :?
And btw if that's the case, he shouldn't have played the drums as well!  ;)

Lol (from his book) on the subject:
"Although I have always felt like a creative musician, I am not a virtuoso drummer or keyboardist."
(page 204)

In the next quote he talks about keyboard/synthesizers (as he was interested in them):
"Robert and I discussed my involvment in that side of music, and now that we were a two-piece, we thought we should maybe get a different drummer..." (page 205)
Does not sound like anyone delegated it to him.  :?

... so he wasn't alone responsible for tensions inside the group.

I never thought he was. In any group, especially if they're on the road and together for almost 24 hours a day, there will be tensions.
As Roger pointed out, not having Lol in the band as an "escape valve", the tensions grew worse.

Quote
Nobody did take up the role of official scape goat and that probably led to the tensions within the band becoming so unbearable during the Prayer Tour.
http://www.rogerodonnell.com/disintegration/

Also helpful for more about Lol's book:
http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=8337.0
but memory's not life... and it's not love.

Offline Snow

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2016, 03:53:31 »
My opinion is that Lol embodied the experimental side of The Cure's music-
at least for a while. The development and improvement of the early synthesizers
were quite rapid, but it's not true that those instruments always have an impact
on your creativity. Apart from that, it's a noted feature of bullying to delegate tasks
to someone else who hasn't been actually trained for, though he had a number of keyboard
lessons. However, he was and still is interested in electronic instruments as he pointed out
in his book. When he left The Cure the feeling of relief didn't last for long (Roger's temporary
departure), so he wasn't alone responsible for tensions inside the group.

You can't abuse drugs and drink without something unhealthy developing in your head...and that pertains to the whole band at that time.    Some people cope better than others and some go under.  I think Tolhurst might have been fundamentally unhappy for a long time and his way of coping was to blot it out with booze.   Many victims of bullying act the clown as a psychological means to cope with the cruelty.  But eventually, you can't sustain it and something has to give.

Roger O'Donnell kind of summed it up.

 We had a pretty massive collection of keyboards including the state of the art Emulator 3 which Lol had just bought. I think it was Teddy and Simon who thought it would be hugely amusing to change the voltage on the back of the E3 , they thought it would blow a fuse when Lol turned it on and we would have a good laugh. Unfortunately it blew the entire power supply and it had to go away for a very expensive repair.

I think it’s pretty much common knowledge how Lol was treated in those days, very very badly. I'm not innocent either but then again he didn’t really do himself any favours, he was drunk most of the time and when he was trying to stay sober we would do all we could to get him drunk again. He barely played anything on the record and I think some of the things he did play I had to play again while he wasn’t there. It was pretty sad looking back the way he was victimised but it was sort of funny at the time, or was it ? He would usually be so drunk after dinner that he would go straight to bed only to get up at about 2am and come wandering into the studio and say everything sounded like shit. He would then decide he was hungry and would go and cook himself something which we would all do our best to ruin, he would still eat it though… Happily Lol is now healthy and happy and not drinking and hopefully he forgives us for what went on then…

Offline Ulrich

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2016, 09:07:35 »
Roger O'Donnell kind of summed it up.

Yeah, kind of. But there's always more than one side to a story.
Did you read Lol's book at all?

In one of the topics linked above, you'll find a quote by Lol about "Disintegration" (from Jeff Apter's book on the Cure):
"I remember Dave Allen saying to me on Disintegration that I'd played more on that album than the last couple, but I don't remember it."

P.S.: It would still be good if you could give a source for the Robert quote you mentioned (the one aboout the lawyer).
but memory's not life... and it's not love.


Offline MeltingMan

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2016, 13:08:25 »
I think Tolhurst might have been fundamentally unhappy for a long time and his way of coping was to blot it out with booze.

Yes, perfectly. The consumption of alcohol allowed him in a way to keep up with
The Cure's schedule of the early years and...with a different lifestyle. Nevertheless,
he deserves a minimum of appreciation for his work on stage and in studio. It had to
be led into a dead end, artistically. He accepted his new contract from 1986 and his role
as 'employee'. Somehow he missed an opportunity to leave the vicious circle of alcoholism
and bullying one or two years earlier, probably due to the loss of self-respect.
Wenn das Spätjahr kommt, werf ich mich in einen
Wagen, ziehe die Decke des Wagenleders hoch zu
meinem Kopf, hülle mich in einen Mantel - so daß nur
meine Augen übrig bleiben, mit denen nach Euch ich
greife.
(Sören Kierkegaard)

Offline Snow

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2017, 21:56:49 »
I read recently that Robert Smith said that, had he been Lol's lawyer when Tolhurst tried to sue him, he'd have won the case...

Where did you read that?
It is known that Lol was the "scapegoat" and aim of much nonsense by the band... but, how could this lead to him winning that case? As far as I know it was a case about "ownership of the band" plus "royalties/cuts from the profits". Lol himself soon realised it was wrong to sue, as he'd signed all the contracts himself. No judge/lawyer could argue much about that fact. Even if the band "bullied" him, doesn't change his increasing lack of input (or the aforementioned limitations on the instruments).

I think Robert was more than happy to accept Lol's friendship again when the olive branch was offered because he knew what a t**t he'd been to him in the past when he should really have helped him more. 

Mind your language! We had several forum members banned for using such words...

I do agree that Robert is probably happy to have renewed the friendship with Lol. In my opinion mainly because Lol had the greatness to apologise for what he did (e.g. the above mentioned legal action)!

I think it was Roger O'Donnell who later admitted that Lol wrote Homesick

Yes. Read about it in that topic for example (post #5):
http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=7896.0

it seems to me that everyone who was ever in that band followed Robert's lead or else.  Those who didn't, left or got pushed.

Robert often said he needed a "working band" (i.e. people who e.g. go crazy during a tour aren't really helpful). We all know it was mostly him who had a "vision" (creatively speaking) for the band and followed it.

Btw, apparently it was the others (band members) who threatened to leave the band in late '88 if Lol would go on tour with them! Thus Robert had to do something...

Lol, nowadays, sees himself as the cause:
"So as the years passed communications and friendship returned. Eventually all the nonsense and sadness and pain I had caused myself and the others dissolved ."
http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=7896.0

I think the way he was treated was truly vile.

I think both sides have made their mistakes. Lol was willing to forgive. Robert too.
All's good as far as I can tell.

Mojo Magazine.  2014.  Interview with Robert Smith.

 “Nothing came out in the court case,” he says. “I could have won if I’d been Lol’s lawyer. Just the f****** mental cruelty that went on towards him. He was so out of it for so much of time that he couldn’t remember.”

https://thecuretc.wordpress.com/tag/mojo-magazine/

Offline Ulrich

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2017, 10:55:49 »
Mojo Magazine.  2014.  Interview with Robert Smith.

Thanks. Wow, took you only a bit more than a month.  :smth023

Anything else you got to say? Did you read Lol's book in the meantime?
but memory's not life... and it's not love.

Offline piggymirror

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2017, 04:03:15 »
I think it was Roger O'Donnell who later admitted that Lol wrote Homesick even though Robert denied Lol had contributed anything at all, and that when he was trying his best not to drink, the others were trying their hardest to get him drunk.

Lol is credited as co-writer on each song and b-side of Disintegration, so he must be getting some royalties for that.
Even if his contribution was small, he must have made some money out of Disintegration, as that record sold a bit.

That said, none of us can tell the way royalty money is distributed within the band.
We only know Robert gets more money, for obvious reasons, but that's all.

Anyone having read the book will know that by 1989 Lol was suffering from delirium tremens.
God knows the amounts of booze he must have taken to lead him there.


Offline Ulrich

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2017, 15:31:31 »
Even if his contribution was small, he must have made some money out of Disintegration, as that record sold a bit.

Yes, we can only guess it was Robert's (or the band's) "generosity" to list him as a co-writer and instrumentalist for this album.

Apparently later Lol had to sell his publishing rights (or something like that) to be able to pay the costs for the court case.  :roll:
but memory's not life... and it's not love.

Offline piggymirror

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2017, 05:01:05 »
Yes, we can only guess it was Robert's (or the band's) "generosity" to list him as a co-writer and instrumentalist for this album.

I'm afraid we don't know wether he contributed anything or not.
Mind you, delirium tremens or not, it's not like Robert was in a much better state during The Top/Hyaena...

But Budgie also had delirium tremens, and we won't discuss his brilliance, will we?

Apparently later Lol had to sell his publishing rights (or something like that) to be able to pay the costs for the court case.  :roll:

Source?


Offline Ulrich

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2017, 09:42:22 »
I'm afraid we don't know wether he contributed anything or not.

Oh yes, we do...
http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=7896.msg760667#msg760667

(And btw I'd said "we can only guess"...)

it's not like Robert was in a much better state during The Top/Hyaena...

He played many concerts with 2 bands and performed on 2 albums at the same time, personally I would consider this a "much better state"!

But Budgie also had delirium tremens

Source?

Source?

Several interviews with the band back in the 90's. But it would take a long time to find them...
In his book Lol says:
"I had ... only about 25 per cent of my income to live on. The judge had ordered that I allocate 75 per cent to pay off my trial costs and legal fees".

(Possibly it was that what they meant in these interviews, sorry for any confusion on my side.)
but memory's not life... and it's not love.

Offline piggymirror

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2017, 21:21:43 »
I'm afraid we don't know wether he contributed anything or not.

Oh yes, we do...
http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=7896.msg760667#msg760667

(And btw I'd said "we can only guess"...)

Oh, yes. Sorry, I'd forgotten about it.

it's not like Robert was in a much better state during The Top/Hyaena...

He played many concerts with 2 bands and performed on 2 albums at the same time, personally I would consider this a "much better state"!

Lol also played live... while he could.

Robert played many concerts with both The Cure and the Banshees, yes.
However, it's no secret that the Banshees weren't very happy with his behaviour.
He didn't ruin a show like John McGeoch (who also had serious trouble with the bottle).
But there are many shows where he clearly is not in top form, both in The Cure and in the Banshees.
Ok, Concert, Nocturne and that TV show with the Banshees (the one with the fish guitar) seem to put a strong objection to that, but you listen to bootlegs from 1983 and 1984, and... well, he really wasn't in top form. Lyrics forgotten, guitar parts badly played... that was not uncommon between 1983 and 1984.
That didn't mean he didn't have his brilliant moments, of course he had them, he's Robert fvcking Smith!!

But Budgie also had delirium tremens

Source?

Himself in the Banshees official biography.
He didn't explicitly say he had it, but he described the symptoms.
Actually, Budgie's alcohol problem was the main reason that led to the break-up of the Banshees... and nearly The Creatures at the same time.
However, Sioux and Budgie managed to stay together for some ten more extra years.

That said, Budgie's problem seems to have been less grave than Lol's.

Offline Ulrich

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #73 on: November 22, 2017, 10:30:04 »
Lol also played live... while he could.

And...? Nobody doubted that.  :?

Himself in the Banshees official biography.

That said, Budgie's problem seems to have been less grave than Lol's.

Okay. Good to hear about the latter.

Btw, "delirium tremens" is a very specific part of the problem, not everyone who drinks too much suffers that:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/delirium-tremens
but memory's not life... and it's not love.

Offline MeltingMan

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Re: What do you think of Lol?
« Reply #74 on: November 22, 2017, 17:43:50 »
but you listen to bootlegs from 1983 and 1984, and... well, he really wasn't in top form. Lyrics forgotten, guitar parts badly played... that was not uncommon between 1983 and 1984.

Hmm. When I read this I hope Lol is able to put together a supplement for every chapter of Cured;
for volume 2 of course. The sound in that period is my favorite one, however.
Wenn das Spätjahr kommt, werf ich mich in einen
Wagen, ziehe die Decke des Wagenleders hoch zu
meinem Kopf, hülle mich in einen Mantel - so daß nur
meine Augen übrig bleiben, mit denen nach Euch ich
greife.
(Sören Kierkegaard)