gothic cure?

[japanesebaby]

if you're simply saying that teaching natural sciences in school is more important than teaching the kids the history of popular music since late 70s, then i'm very likely to agree we you - well who really wouldn't? so i'm not sure what sort of point you're trying to make there. because look: the reasons behind my copernicus metaphor were only to demonstrate that sticking to something that was invented first doesn't mean it's the best and most fit anyway after time passes.  (and yes i actually could have chosen mama cass too or pretty much anything else under the sun -that has nothing to do whether or not they are fit for school curriculums or not. because that's completely irrelevant anyway.)
when we talk about history (as we do here!) we have to consider the passing of time and the changing of opinions that takes place because more information is being gathered/found. and yes, terms and genrenames are certainly difficult to change like you said. names can stick hard. yet sometimes they also do change naturally over time, because people naturally start describing things more in detail. so all i was saying was that we shouldn't stick to something just because it exists/it was somehow "decided already" that these things are called like this or that. if we personally feel a term is not very fit anymore then why stick to it? it doesn't mean we have to go scrusading against the whole world for it. i only mean we can change it within our own perception/our own way to discuss things.
and this is not the same as calling sun the moon or earth to mercurius. it's not just a simple "hey let's vhange this word to something else!". if you think about it i think you're bound to notice what the difference between these two actions is.

and let me explain myself a bit, what comes to starting this whole conversation:

i started this conversation because i thought that "what do we mean by 'gothic' TODAY?" is worth a discussion. not because i wanted to say "this is right, this is wrong" to anybody.
because yes, surely the cure fit under the gothic lable IF we use the term vaguely. and yes i also agree we can change the terms to daisy pop or whatever we wish and yes i agree it's really difficult to change some well-established terms more or less globally. of course it is.
but isn't discussing the nuances where its really at? i mean, that's how we can actually can fully grasp our own thoughts...

so let's change the angle a bit and let me present the question anew:
if the early cure is indeed labeled under 'gothic rock', what exactly is it in them/in the music that makes them so?

so far, i've understood that devoblue's argument was that in the early days of the gothic days, in the early 80s, the whole term was used more vaguely and broadly and thus the cure's output (from those those) can be put under it.
again, please note that i actually never even argued this. yes i'm totally and thoroughly well aware why people still use this term. i was only suggesting that using it and stopping there ("early cure is gothic rock. period.") serves no purpose if we're discussing things and not just labeling them for a encyclopedia index.
and i don't think anyone here even intended to stop there, by the way. but if i've been promoting a "let's use terms a little less vaguely", then there's a reason behind it.

i just feel that the initial question "why does the cure sound gothic/what in them makes (or made) them 'gothic'? still remains unanswered. if we only say "they are gothic because in the early days of the gothic "movement" the term was used vaguely". because it still doesn't describe anything that's really oroginal for the cure's music much at all. we remain in the level where bands like depeche mode could be described the same way - so let's not stop at this level and or we don't find out much anything about these bands. that is a completely anonymous level where even big differences in style can go ignored. if we really ant to answer the question we have to move into the area where things are more detailed and original features can be perceived. so THAT is why i've been talking about subgenres and the incapability of the term 'gothic rock' as an umbrella term. 

so, there could be two questions maybe:

how would you really describe the early cure, either in terms of detailed genres or in your own words?

and/or

if you really do agree that 'gothic rock' is a good label for them (talking about their early 80s output only here too), them why do YOU personally perceive see them as such? what exactly in them makes their music gothic enough to call them 'gothic'?


i think devoblue was already turning a bit into that direction at the end of his last post anyway.

(and yes. i'm aware that "dark wave" can be misleading too, that some people only use it as a synonym for gothic. but i still think it's much better because it's not as established as a term as gothic is - because 'gothic' simply is heavily associated with gothic subculture itself and it comes with such a heavy load of pre-conceptions and connotations (even prejudices!) that it's actually very very difficult to use in it's vague sense anymore! but even as a combination of words alone, "dark wave" is much more broad and imho thus much more capable of serving the purpose of an umbrella term. so if i was suggesting that some term would be better if it was truly changed, it's because why knowingly and consciously keep using a term that we already know is going to cause misunderstandings because we already know it's meaning has indeed changed quite a bit over the years? that's all.)

devoblue is my hero.

good luck with that. the life of a hero is not often envied, when it really comes down to it. just ask jesus & co.

[japanesebaby]

devoblue is my hero.

good luck with that. the life of a hero is not often envied, when it really comes down to it. just ask jesus & co.

i'm joking of course. and may  i say actually quite like this conversation so far?  :smth001

[japanesebaby]

i've split this topic since it mostly didn't have anything much to do with WMS anymore.

@devoblue: there's one post from you above that includes extensive comments regarding WMS.

maybe you could copy paster those and re-post it to the WMS thread? you had some good points there that would be good to have on the WMS thread.

[devoblue]

devoblue is my hero.

good luck with that. the life of a hero is not often envied, when it really comes down to it. just ask jesus & co.

i'm joking of course. and may  i say actually quite like this conversation so far?  :smth001

As have I, but my next 48 hours are sleep, work, plane, concert, sleep, plane, work, and I'm too tired to give a worthwhile response right now. Hopefully after that.

[Carnage Visor]

They might have never been goth, and I know you were referring to a comment that I made earlier about me preferring their more goth-style stuff...but I have to throw in my own few for you guys to either ignore, toss off, or call me out on (because it seems nobody can ever accept my views, they always have to argue)

The Cure might have never been considered "Goth", I like to think of their style of music in the early 80s as gothic rock or new wave. The word "POP" for me is not something I want to associate with The Cure. For me, pop is like Christina Aguilera and Fergie, and Backstreet Boys and all that crap.
What's all-of-a sudden wrong with being "goth"? I'd consider that a compliment, starting a craze that huge! I mean, Siouxsie, the Bauhaus, and The Cure shaped what goth is today, whether or not they really were a goth band to begin with.

[Janko]

THE CURE ARE GOTHIC BECAUSE MOST GOTHS LISTEN TO THE CURE
THE END OF DISCUSSION.

[Bloodflower]

Leave it to Janko....

[japanesebaby]

THE CURE ARE GOTHIC BECAUSE MOST GOTHS LISTEN TO THE CURE
THE END OF DISCUSSION.

let me see... ok:
the cure are not gothic because if they were i really don't think i would bother listening to them on such a regular basis, but instead i actually do spend quite a lot of time listening to them and also hanging around here - so, in the end all that must mean that the cure are definitely not gothic after all.
the end of discussion (or the end of my forum-life? hmm).
but hell yeah, you're right: discussions suck anyway. so let's just try to avoid that in the future. should i lock this topic now?

[Janko]

THE CURE ARE GOTHIC BECAUSE MOST GOTHS LISTEN TO THE CURE
THE END OF DISCUSSION.

let me see... ok:
the cure are not gothic because if they were i really don't think i would bother listening to them on such a regular basis, but instead i actually do spend quite a lot of time listening to them and also hanging around here - so, in the end all that must mean that the cure are definitely not gothic after all.
the end of discussion (or the end of my forum-life? hmm).
but hell yeah, you're right: discussions suck anyway. so let's just try to avoid that in the future. should i lock this topic now?

DONT
SOONER OR LATER SOMEBODY WILL START THIS ISSUE ALL OVER AGAIN

[japanesebaby]

THE CURE ARE GOTHIC BECAUSE MOST GOTHS LISTEN TO THE CURE
THE END OF DISCUSSION.

let me see... ok:
the cure are not gothic because if they were i really don't think i would bother listening to them on such a regular basis, but instead i actually do spend quite a lot of time listening to them and also hanging around here - so, in the end all that must mean that the cure are definitely not gothic after all.
the end of discussion (or the end of my forum-life? hmm).
but hell yeah, you're right: discussions suck anyway. so let's just try to avoid that in the future. should i lock this topic now?

DONT
SOONER OR LATER SOMEBODY WILL START THIS ISSUE ALL OVER AGAIN

hmm well, doesn't that sort of mean that it's not such a simple and clear issue then after all? 

what is actually sort of interesting imo is that people are so keen on defending the "gothic-ness" of the cure. i mean, what does it matter, if they were gothic or not? or maybe it's because otherwise the goths wouldn't be permitted to listen to the band, if it wasn't labeled "officially gothic" or something...
oh it must be hard, to be a goth... all the marvellous things out there that you have to deny from yourself - because they are not "gothic enough"...?

[Janko]

TO MANY - DEPECHE MODE ARE GOTH!

[japanesebaby]

TO MANY - DEPECHE MODE ARE GOTH!

yep. as gothic as it can possibly be:

[Carnage Visor]

I had no idea this topic was so controversial! They're every genre for heavens sake! They've touched on just about every style and genre there is... so yeah, one of those styles was gothic. That's not to say they aregoth, because they are also alternative, pop, rock, techno...everything!!!

I apologize if my comments seemed stereotypical or misdirected...I LOVE THE CURE!!!

[rjl]

The Cure are mariachi-rock. I mean, they recorded "The 13th".

[Bloodflower]

Nah! They're Flamenco. Haven't you heard The Blood?