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Who is your favourite The Cure drummer?

Author Topic: Jason Cooper - A study of his style  (Read 47384 times)

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Offline patitodark

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2008, 23:52:45 »
I was listening to WMS, Bloodflowers and The Cure randomizing the tracks but however much I try to find that special thing Cure songs used to have, I can't  :(

I'm sure you know that Burn was just composed & recorded just by Robert and Boris, and that Boris inspired Robert "to introduce each instrument singularly and in sequence" in Just Like heaven. (Wikipedia)

My point is that Jason is so uninspiring and musically limited that is contributing to the debacle of the band. (And I used to think that Larry Mullen Jr. was the worst rock/pop/alternative drummer...  :roll:)

Now I want to share something a friend of mine gave me recently:

45. Lol Tolhurst / Boris Williams

You could easily look at the switch between the Cure’s two definitive drummers as the fulcrum between the two phases of their career. Lol Tolhurst’s drumming was tight, economical, and unembellished, guiding the Cure through their post-punk and goth years with his crisp and dark playing, but by the mid-’80s, the band was moving on to bigger and better things, and brought on Boris Williams to fill in as Lol became increasingly unreliable. Williams’ drum work, pronounced, thundering and anthemic, was just what the band needed for the epic and commercially viable musical statements they’d make for the rest of the decade, through the early ‘90s. Then they brought on some other guy, and no one cared about the band again. Coincidence?

Source: http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/weekly_article/stylus-magazines-50-greatest-rock-drummers.htm

I really hope that:

1. Jason improves 1,000% for the next record or
2. Boris returns to the band or
3. Robert hires a new drummer


Offline strange_day

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2008, 07:19:45 »
(hey you should here how musicians talk about each other, on a regular basis.... and not just enemies, even when they respect each other(!) ;))

I might not agree with everything youve said but this just sums up everything (Im one too  ;)) and youre totally right! haha

I think if you take that viewpoint its a whole different thing. I know because i do it, taking your own personal taste as the be all end all. (Dont deny it, its what musicians do  :lol:)

I guess the point i was trying to make was not aimed at the people who have a problem with his style (i understand that) but more the attitude of people who think Boris should return.... y'know? (Theres a lot of that loaded behind these discussions of his style)
And its about letting that go and moving on.

Offline japanesebaby

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2008, 10:57:58 »
;)
I think if you take that viewpoint its a whole different thing. I know because i do it, taking your own personal taste as the be all end all. (Dont deny it, its what musicians do  :lol:)

actually i don't agree with this. i don't think you can generalize this quite as easily. 
that seems to mean that musicians were somehow "less flexible" with their tastes/opinions, that they were bound to have much more fixed attitudes. well to me the only difference is perhaps that musicians might sometimes (i mean, sometimes) be able to explain the reasons behind their tastes better than some (i mean, some - i hate this kind of generalizing, really) non-musicians. and perhaps that might make it look like they opinions were somehow more fixed or even "rigid". but i've met a lot of non-musicians who have a lot more fixed attitudes about something, up to the point that it's totally impossible to even try and discuss those things (whatever they were) with them. and they might even be more or lee unable to talk about the reasons behind their tastes and even uninterested to explore the whoel issue of "why is it that i actually feel/think this way? why i like this, why i dislike that?". i think that's a lot more problematic, actually. then again, i also do know musicians who are totally uninterested to explore those things too - so all i can say is that this really doesn't depend on whether you are a musician or not. it's some other kind of a question of personality or something.

yes, what comes to (talking about) their own art/artistic output, then you can say that musicans are probably "less flexible" in that way. but that's a necessity: you cannot be a creative artist if you don't believe in yourself and what you do 110%.
but what comes to artists' tastes on other people's art, i think it's not at all true. being a musician can give you an advantage to be able to pay attention to certain things better than others, but it doen's mean you had to have any more "fixed" attitudes/tastes than anyone else out there.


(by the way, i haven't said boris should come back. to be honest i don't think it's  reasonable to wish that, so dwelling in that is living in the past, i agree.
i've just said that the cure needs a decent drummer. a world of difference. :!:)
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Offline japanesebaby

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2008, 18:27:05 »
And its about letting that go and moving on.

i remember at the time when porl joined, some people got excited and wondered if even more of the classic cure line-up from the wish tour era might show up. but it's still not reasonable to say that all (or most) of the people who don't like jason's style just sit and wait and sit and wait and rant about "why doesn't boris come back?". at least i'm not one of those people. i really don't think boris will come back and i'm not saying jason is mediocre just because i wished he'd be fired and room made for boris. that would be totally silly. the only reason i say jason is mediocre and an unimaginative musician is because when i listen to his playing he simply sounds like that(!).
so some people (myself included) just wish that the cure simply had a better drummer, whoever that was. and that has nothing to do with boris, actually.
i find all these "jason vs, boris" sort of settings/polls just quite unfruitful and unconstructive. because if that is taken as a starting point then it'll just cause all these "yes!" "no!" "yes!!" "NO!!" kind of "conversations" where people don't really say much at all, just come to "defend their colors" or something and imo we're only missing the target there. i'd be much more interested to discuss how the cure's music would improve, if they finally decided to get themselves an imaginative drummer.


so about one thing i do agree and it's about moving on. perhaps people who still want boris back are stuck in the past. but actually i feel that it's the cure is also stuck into the past here (=keeping a mediocre talented artist in the payroll, year after year).
moving on would mean they'd finally do something for their drummer issue.
 
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Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

Offline strange_day

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2008, 18:50:31 »
And its about letting that go and moving on.
so about one thing i do agree and it's about moving on. perhaps people who still want boris back are stuck in the past. but actually i feel that it's the cure is also stuck into the past here (=keeping a mediocre talented artist in the payroll, year after year).
moving on would mean they'd finally do something for their drummer issue.
 

I think thats personal taste, to say theres an 'issue'.... you mean you have an issue, the guys playing in the band and writing music with this guy dont have an issue.

I think to call him mediocre is a bit harsh, you could say Robert cant sing and Simons not a very technical bass player.... but it still works and they make fantastic music. I mean, personally i like the drum fills he does, so whether hes a 'technically bad' musician makes no odds (though i think some people are really making him out to be worse than he is)

Like i recently saw My Bloody Valentine and they were probably the loudest and most amazing band ive ever seen (second only to The Cure of course  :-D) But their drummer messed up so many times, even dropped a stick at one point and they had to start the song again! But it was still fantastic, nobody complained and just showed how much things like that really dont matter so much when the band is fantastic.

I wasnt directing the 'bring back boris' thing at you, i just feel that a lot of people get very possessive and think they know whats best for the band, but its all subjective, whether something sounds good or not, it comes down to personal preference, but ultimately, hes the guy up there onstage playing...


Offline japanesebaby

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2008, 08:04:06 »
And its about letting that go and moving on.
so about one thing i do agree and it's about moving on. perhaps people who still want boris back are stuck in the past. but actually i feel that it's the cure is also stuck into the past here (=keeping a mediocre talented artist in the payroll, year after year).
moving on would mean they'd finally do something for their drummer issue.
 

I think thats personal taste, to say theres an 'issue'.... you mean you have an issue, the guys playing in the band and writing music with this guy dont have an issue.

yes but my comment is slightly taken out of its context now. perhaps i shouldn't have said the word 'issue' because it only makes people to look into some individual word.... but back to what the context was: what i originally said there was just one example of what I (and yes, now i'm being deliberately subjective) would rather discuss, instead of having these "JASON VS. BORIS, everybody choose your weapons and let's beat each other with just another series of futile i-am-right/you-are-wrong debates!" i mean that's what most cure forums all full of. i really can't even bother reading through all that anymore.

i'd find it a lot more interesting to try and discuss why we actually prefer the things we do (whetehr it was about cure drummers or something else). but sadly it's very difficult to do this because isntantly when you say something that is perhaps a bit strong people just get mad and think it's a call to arms or something. and i just find it frustrating that conversation (especially about certain topics) is sometimes difficult because people get so defensive.

for instance, if people want to "defend" jason then why not post some examples about his good drumming? examples of perhaps-not-so-good qulities has already been discussed here, i think. because the conversation doesn't go anywhere just as long as we just say "i like this and it's subjective, i can't explain it more, i just like it. period".
things are not THAT subjective.


(and yes i know some things ARE difficult to "explain" and some things can't/shouldn't be.
but sometimes we could try, that's all i mean. we can try to choose examples that can shed light on our likes/tastes.)
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Offline japanesebaby

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2008, 08:13:52 »
ps.

I wasnt directing the 'bring back boris' thing at you, i just feel that a lot of people get very possessive and think they know whats best for the band

i think people who prefer jason can also get just as possessive so i don't think we can point the finger on just one party here. :!:

about "what's best for the band?": it's not like people refuse to accept the reality, i think it's a bit wrong to say that. i think everyone who doesn't prefer jason are aware that they can't change the current line-up and they know that if bob is happy with jason then that's the end of that. but that doesn't mean they didn't have the right to speak up their different opinion in places like this(!). i mean, i really cannot see anything bad in people fantasizing "if i could have my say about the line-up" - you know just like people write their dream set lists all the time. it's really not any different than that(!).

so it's not the same as if some people totally refuse to accept the reality, that they are stuck in the past. the fact that people still keep on following the cure news and keep on buying the records & going to the concerts alone proves it, don't you think?
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

Online dsanchez

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2008, 18:20:49 »
This might be the most mean-spirited thread I've seen here -- in a while, at least.

The threat was started for a non-regular Curefans.com member who, by the way, have 2 karma points which means that most people actually support his opinion about Jason.

I have been reading the whole discussion and I don't find any single offensive comment towards Jason as a person. I think the point of the discussion are his skills as musician and I don't see nothing wrong on giving an opinion about that.

I have also noticed that about 8 to 10 people wrote their opinions about this matter, with 4 people in Jason's side, about 4 people in Jason's oposition, and 1 in the middle (me). So after all, the opinion of the fans seems divided 50/50.

Maybe is time to close this topic, unless someone else want to give another input about Jason's style.

Peace.
Strangers passing in the street, by chance two separate glances meet and I am you and what I see is me...

Offline splitmilk34

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2008, 19:38:54 »
I have to weigh in on this, finally...
After watching the video (which was completely annoying, by the way) I've come to the conclusion that Jason Cooper is not Boris Williams who is not Lol Tolhurst. 
Seriously folks, if Jason played the parts the EXACT same way as on record then we'd probably be having a discussion about Jason's lack of individuality, originality and creativity. 
Realistically he may not be a better drummer than Boris (or maybe he is) - but he certainly is a better drummer than Lol (or maybe he's not).  If you listen to the way Boris played drums on the Faith & Pornography stuff, it certainly wasn't a hit for hit recreation of Lol's parts.  And, sure, maybe Jason's drumming is "busier" than needs be, but I do know this - when I've seen them live he's pounded the shit of his kit and it's certainly added a heavier edge to songs like "Push" and "FTEOTDGS" which is important, given that the band is only using guitars.

I've said it about 1,017,987 times on this thread now, but, here it goes again: the Disintegration/Wish-era lineup ain't coming back... ever... not happening.  I'm just happy the band is still making music! 
(music of which the drums are the least of my worries)

Also... who is to say that the video isn't fake????
"... sleeping less every night"

Offline Carnage Visor

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2008, 01:37:16 »
I personally am more partial towards a drum machine for "100 Years", and all of those songs that originally used keyboards and drum machine, rather than using a real drum and guitars.

I have nothing against the drummers themselves, never have. It's the way they play it, and how the band sounds as a whole that means something to me. I never go, "Oh great, there's Boris on drums!" or "Oh no, it's LOL!". Instead, I often say, "Oh no, they aren't using a synth in an originally synth-heavy song!"

So he's cool with me. I wish he'd dress a bit darker or something to match Robert and Simon's usually punk/alternative look they have.  :P

Offline revolt

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2008, 12:43:55 »
Yawn..... This topic never goes away.  :roll:

If anything that video just really annoyed me, its inaccurate, unfair and made by someone who clearly has waaayyy too much time on their hands.
I could argue it for hours and hours. I understand why people prefer Boris, thats easy, he was there in the 'good old days' and thats fair enough. But i get really sick of the black and white comparisons between the two, that one is perfect and the other always messes up - untrue. They both have different styles and thats what makes it interesting. Yes, Jason uses click tracks and samples, i dont see whats wrong with that, since nearly every drummer in a band that size plays to a click track live. I really like all the little samples of beats in there, it makes for a different version, more contemporary etc. Thats the reason they are there, not because the guy cant play. Look at Underneath The Stars, i think thats done really well.

But this isnt 1989 anymore, let it go, or get up there and do a better job yourself...

I'm totally with you there. Especially the last sentence.
 :smth023


Are you people thinking of applying for a job as the new Cure drummer?  :-D


Offline revolt

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2008, 12:52:23 »
(And I used to think that Larry Mullen Jr. was the worst rock/pop/alternative drummer...  :roll:)



What? How come!!??  :smth011

Actually, the poorer standards for drumming tham seem to rule pop/rock nowadays started, I think, with all that baggy/madchester thing... That repetitive rollicking (its this a word?) pattern pretty much got adopted by every new pop/rock band then and it seems to have sticked.

Offline revolt

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2008, 12:56:39 »
.i'd be much more interested to discuss how the cure's music would improve, if they finally decided to get themselves an imaginative drummer.


Budgie seems to be kind of unemployed these days... What if?

Offline revolt

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2008, 13:04:30 »
i mean, i really cannot see anything bad in people fantasizing "if i could have my say about the line-up" -

Good idea.

Now, let's see...


Let's have Budgie replace Jason.


And Severin replace Simon.


Call John Carruthers for the place of Porl.


And, let's see... Siouxsie instead of Rob.... No, wait.  :-D


Offline revolt

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Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2008, 12:30:46 »
Lot of people complains about Jason drumming. For hardcore fans, he will always be the "NEW" drummer and kind of a "special guest" of the band.

Never before a band member's been so unpopular. Never before a band member's style didn't match with The Cure.

Some guys say that a good indicator of a bad drummer for The Cure, is when the guy uses a pre-recorded track for 100 years (Lol used it and so Jason).

Well, for you all, my serious study of Jason drumming. Probably I will be releasing a couple more in the long term. If you liked it, then subscribe to my videos.

I won't answer to your messages. Sorry. I've done it because I don't have the chance to talk to Robert and tell him what the real fans think about his drummer. And better yet, what is wrong with him. Why his style doesn't fit The Cure and such.

BTW, the music and the "study" begins at 00:23 but read/watch it all!

HERE IS THE LINK TO THE VIDEO. THANKS:


OK, I finally took the opportunity to watch and listen attentively to this video and I confess it made me laugh... Those triplets and cymbal bashing parts truly sound out of place. But I also think this video is a bit too nasty and maybe not well subatantiated, too? Because the thing you do is play the drums in Jason's style (so you say) over studio versions of well known Cure songs... To be really fair you would have to post live recordings of those songs showing Jason really playing the way you claim he does.


 

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