Crazy world :?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting
The Jokela school shooting occurred on November 7, 2007, at the Jokela School Centre (Jokelan koulukeskus), a public secondary school in Tuusula, Finland.
http://www.yle.fi/news/
i was on my way to work today as i heard about this. and i work as a teacher too... (not is a public school but anyway).
maybe you can call me naïve but i just have really hard time believing something like this could have happened around here.
i'm really shocked about this.
jokela is not very far from helsinki, just half an hour by local train.
That is a terrible tradegy.
But, of the numerous school shootings, the US has had recently.
It's not that shocking that it can happen anywhere.
CNN SAIS THAT FINLAND HAS THE SECOND BIGGEST RATE OF GUNS POSSESION AMONG PEOPLE, ONLY USA HAS BIGGER...
IT'S DISTURBING THAT THE KID MADE A VIDEO FOR YOUTUBE, BUT IT'S KINDA POSITIVE THAT HE SAID THAT "not books, not computer games, not anything" WERE TO BLAME, AND THAT IT WAS ALL PLANNED "IN HIS OWN HEAD", WHICH BRINGS US BACK TO THAT CRIS ROCK VIDEO WHEN HE ASKED "WHAT ABOUT CRAZY?"
I ONCE FELT SORRY FOR ALL THOSE KIDS THAT DO THESE THINGS
THEY WERE OFTEN DEPRESSED, BULLIED, ABUSED BY PARENTS...
BUT NOW I THINK THEY ARE JUST CRAZY AND I FEEL NO SIMPATHY FOR THEM ANY MORE
:smth011
Quote from: Janko on November 07, 2007, 21:32:23
CNN SAIS THAT FINLAND HAS THE SECOND BIGGEST RATE OF GUNS POSSESION AMONG PEOPLE, ONLY USA HAS BIGGER...
I was shocked by the news, as our perception from Finland is like a very calm country, and I guess something like this must be really schoking in a place where you can't expect things like this coming.
And this what says Janko just confirm my theory that giving guns too easy to the people is extremely dangerous. Look how many crazies are around there...
Quote from: dsanchez on November 07, 2007, 21:42:06
...giving guns too easy to the people...
TO THE SCHOOL KID!
ALLEGEDLY, THE KID HAD THE GUN LEGALLY AND WAS REGULARLY VISITING SHOOTING RANGES!
WHAT KIND OF PARENTS AND/OR TEACHERS THINK THIS IS NORMAL?!
:smth011
Quote from: Janko on November 07, 2007, 21:49:56
ALLEGEDLY, THE KID HAD THE GUN LEGALLY AND WAS REGULARLY VISITING SHOOTING RANGES!
WHAT KIND OF PARENTS AND/OR TEACHERS THINK THIS IS NORMAL?!
Here in Peru you need to pass a psychologist test before getting permission to use guns.
Peru is already a crazy country and I can't imagine what would be if people could buy it so easy like by ebay.com, as this freak guy who killed the students in Virginia (US) some months ago did :?
Quote from: Janko on November 07, 2007, 21:49:56
Quote from: dsanchez on November 07, 2007, 21:42:06
...giving guns too easy to the people...
TO THE SCHOOL KID!
ALLEGEDLY, THE KID HAD THE GUN LEGALLY AND WAS REGULARLY VISITING SHOOTING RANGES!
WHAT KIND OF PARENTS AND/OR TEACHERS THINK THIS IS NORMAL?!
:smth011
Conseder the mom who purchased a firearm, for her teenage son, recently in the US.
:smth011
What parent, in their right mind, would think of helping their child perpetrate a school shooting.
THEN AGAIN, I THINK THINGS (LAWS) WILL CHANGE IN FINLAND AFTER THIS
FINLAND DOESNT HAVE THAT KIND OF CONSTITUTION (LIKE IN USA WHERE IT'S LIKE A PART OF HUMAN RIGHTS TO HAVE A GUN :?)
Quote from: Cure Freak on November 07, 2007, 21:58:58
Quote from: Janko on November 07, 2007, 21:49:56
Quote from: dsanchez on November 07, 2007, 21:42:06
...giving guns too easy to the people...
TO THE SCHOOL KID!
ALLEGEDLY, THE KID HAD THE GUN LEGALLY AND WAS REGULARLY VISITING SHOOTING RANGES!
WHAT KIND OF PARENTS AND/OR TEACHERS THINK THIS IS NORMAL?!
:smth011
Conseder the mom who purchased a firearm, for her teenage son, recently in the US.
:smth011
What parent, in their right mind, would think of helping their child perpetrate a school shooting.
Yeah, that happened in a school district in my area. Most of the guns confiscated were air guns that looked like real guns, but there were a couple rel ones mixed in. I can't imagine how that kid's mom thought it was proper for him to have any of that crap!
It's always hard to come to grips with a story like this school shooting. I just don't get it.. a parent allowing a child to have a gun! Maybe the parents must be held accountable too. But I know in some countries, it is thought as quite normal to own a gun. One can only imagine the sheer terror the students feel when someone crashes into their classrooms, shooting randomly. It happens all too often. My heart goes out to anyone touched by this latest tragedy. So very, very sad...young lives cut short. Why?
Quote from: Janko on November 07, 2007, 21:32:23
CNN SAIS THAT FINLAND HAS THE SECOND BIGGEST RATE OF GUNS POSSESION AMONG PEOPLE, ONLY USA HAS BIGGER...
yes it's certainly true. most are guns licenced for hunting/hunting societies though. as finland is a very sparesely populated country with lots of forest regions with practically no inhabintants. thus hunting is a very common tradition/pastime. so most guns registered here are hunting rifles. not that i am pro-hunting at all, but it's still a bit different than in the US where people just get handguns just because it's their "right to have a gun" or because they "want to protect themselves". it's completely impossible for a person just to go and buy a handgun here, like in america. that kind of thinking is pretty alien around us here, i think. there is practically no "handgun tradition" in finland.
anyway, all guns are guns, whatever the purpose was.
this is an ugly thing to say but this puts up my dislike towards americanism a lot today. something like this is so alien and so out of place, it's something that some disturbed people mimick from america, word to word.
Quote from: Cure Freak on November 07, 2007, 21:27:14
But, of the numerous school shootings, the US has had recently.
It's not that shocking that it can happen anywhere.
and sorry to say such a thing, it's nothing against anyone and i don't want to start "us vs. them" here or anything. but to say "it's happened in america so it was just a matter of time it happened here" - why should it happene here? why should we mimick anything as sick as that? and most of all, why is all that sickness spreading here from america??
it doesn't give it any reasons, to say "It's not that shocking that it can happen anywhere". because it shouldn't happen here - or more, it shouldn't happen anywhere. and it never happened here before, it never happened here until it happened repeatedly in america and then started spreading around because some sick people want to mimick everything american because they think it's somehow "cool". sorry if i find it somehow belittling to say that since it's happened in america, it is "not shocking" it can happen anywhere. maybe so, but it is STILL very shocking, wherever it happens! we cannot just say "oh well, just one more of these cases". it's always VERY shocking. we shouldn't belittle it like this but pay MORE attention to everything than before. because it's dangerous to say it's not shocking if we think like this, we stop caring for each other and we stop respecting each other like we should. sentiments like this only make it happen more and more because it means we somehow start accepting these things as part of something "normal". but just because something starts to happen more and more often it still doesn't mean it's "normal".
there's nothing to justify any single one of this kind of acts.
ok i'm sorry to say such things aloud but i am just angry towards this sick americanism today.
because the truth is that we mostly get bad things like this through it, it's just quite difficult to think anything positive that it brought us. :/
It's not a good thing no, but it can happen anywhere. It most certainly should not, but it will, and there isn't a lot we can do about it. It is very disgusting and obscene to think that it's normal, but what are we to think? It does happen sometimes, and it's going to happen somewhere other than America.
and have you read his YouTube account? He was "trying to start a revolution" not off of someone else's ideas, but from his own. This is not a word for word mimicking.
Quote from: AlluivialL on November 08, 2007, 06:53:05
and have you read his YouTube account? He was "trying to start a revolution" not off of someone else's ideas, but from his own. This is not a word for word mimicking.
come on, the shooter was clearly a very disturbed person. and yes i've read his words but i've read a psychiarist's comments who analyzed all of this shooter's messages and the psychiarists very clearly showed how it's very typical copy/pasted stuff from some other similar cases, how it displays completely fragmented thinking (if there's any "thinking" at all there!) and how it doesn't display an original way of thinking - thus people should be suspicious to believe this person's words and motives. what if he just copy/pasted stuff from other sources? so how well can we trust any word the shooter himself said about his motives? he was too disturbed to say anything clearly enough, like a normal person would.
so i'm bound to be more interested of the psychiarist's word there.
and so, yes it hink it's nothing but very clear mimicking from certain well-known american examples. everyone who looks at it should see it instantly! i mean, we could say he didn't mimick IF he invented something original - but he didn't! he just did what all those school killers in america did, exactly the same thing. so how can anyone say "he was not mimicking" and how can anyone believe this madman's own words about his own motives? i don't understand. he was clearly copying something that had happened before - and that's nothing but mimicking. he didn't come up with anything original there.
Regardless of whether he was mimicking or not, the bottom line is that he is the one responsible for it. One should have enough knowledge of right from wrong to not do such a thing. If he had such knowledge or self-control, this wouldn't have happened.
So he is the first to blame. Maybe he also had lousy parents who never taught him anything, I don't know.
I grew up around guns, played war with my friends, played violent video games, watched violent movies (even when I was quite young).
But somehow I turned out ok...
i just find it shocking that someone here can write that "it's not shocking that this happened" - just like things like this were something more or less normal that are bound to happen every once in a while. yeah, maybe they do happen every once in a while because there surely is a lot of fucked up people out there, everywhere. but we just cannot say something like this, we cannot start acceoting these things and just shrug them away with a "it's not shocking, it's not a surprise". whatever fucked up things happened, the starting point should be not to accept it and not to give these sort of things room in our everyday thinking as something "normal"/regular. so just like the shooter is responsible for his actions, we should be responsible for our reactions. because our reactions shape the world around us, make it what it is.
sorry but to me it seems that people who can say that just don't feel anything much. that's what annoys me here.
Quote from: japanesebaby on November 08, 2007, 08:15:20
i just find it shocking that someone here can write that "it's not shocking that this happened" - just like things like this were something more or less normal that are bound to happen every once in a while. yeah, maybe they do happen every once in a while because there surely is a lot of fucked up people out there, everywhere. but we just cannot say something like this, we cannot start acceoting these things and just shrug them away with a "it's not shocking, it's not a surprise". whatever fucked up things happened, the starting point should be not to accept it and not to give these sort of things room in our everyday thinking as something "normal"/regular. so just like the shooter is responsible for his actions, we should be responsible for our reactions. because our reactions shape the world around us, make it what it is.
sorry but to me it seems that people who can say that just don't feel anything much. that's what annoys me here.
"It's not that shocking that it can happen anywhere."
NOT "it's not that shocking that this happened"
Quote from: AlluivialL on November 08, 2007, 08:32:12
Quote from: japanesebaby on November 08, 2007, 08:15:20
i just find it shocking that someone here can write that "it's not shocking that this happened" - just like things like this were something more or less normal that are bound to happen every once in a while. yeah, maybe they do happen every once in a while because there surely is a lot of fucked up people out there, everywhere. but we just cannot say something like this, we cannot start acceoting these things and just shrug them away with a "it's not shocking, it's not a surprise". whatever fucked up things happened, the starting point should be not to accept it and not to give these sort of things room in our everyday thinking as something "normal"/regular. so just like the shooter is responsible for his actions, we should be responsible for our reactions. because our reactions shape the world around us, make it what it is.
sorry but to me it seems that people who can say that just don't feel anything much. that's what annoys me here.
"It's not that shocking that it can happen anywhere."
NOT "it's not that shocking that this happened"
yes i did recognize the difference between the two, but it's still the all the same anyway:
because it still displays the sad fact that people get so numb when they live around these things, when they happen more or less often in their own neighborhood (like these school shootings seem to happen in US). and so people start accepting them and start thinking it's all something more or less "normal" - moreover they think: " if it's normal round here, then it's normal/to be expected it's going to happen
everywhere". whereas it is simply NOT like that.
it's sad that people get so numb that they actually dont really care anymore but almost seem to accept some mindless school shootings as being part (although an unpleasant part) of the "modern day school world all around the world" - because that's screwed up, sorry.
Man, that makes me feel safe here in Aus but that doesn't mean that I am. WOW! Who would've thought that Finland has the 2nd moost ammount of guns.... WHY CANT EVERYONE IN THE WORLD JUST LEARN TO LIVE WITH EACHOTHER?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :smth011 :smth011 :smth011
Quote from: japanesebaby on November 08, 2007, 06:46:16
Quote from: Janko on November 07, 2007, 21:32:23
CNN SAIS THAT FINLAND HAS THE SECOND BIGGEST RATE OF GUNS POSSESION AMONG PEOPLE, ONLY USA HAS BIGGER...
yes it's certainly true. most are guns licenced for hunting/hunting societies though. as finland is a very sparesely populated country with lots of forest regions with practically no inhabintants. thus hunting is a very common tradition/pastime. so most guns registered here are hunting rifles. not that i am pro-hunting at all, but it's still a bit different than in the US where people just get handguns just because it's their "right to have a gun" or because they "want to protect themselves". it's completely impossible for a person just to go and buy a handgun here, like in america. that kind of thinking is pretty alien around us here, i think. there is practically no "handgun tradition" in finland.
anyway, all guns are guns, whatever the purpose was.
this is an ugly thing to say but this puts up my dislike towards americanism a lot today. something like this is so alien and so out of place, it's something that some disturbed people mimick from america, word to word.
Quote from: Cure Freak on November 07, 2007, 21:27:14
But, of the numerous school shootings, the US has had recently.
It's not that shocking that it can happen anywhere.
and sorry to say such a thing, it's nothing against anyone and i don't want to start "us vs. them" here or anything. but to say "it's happened in america so it was just a matter of time it happened here" - why should it happene here? why should we mimick anything as sick as that? and most of all, why is all that sickness spreading here from america??
it doesn't give it any reasons, to say "It's not that shocking that it can happen anywhere". because it shouldn't happen here - or more, it shouldn't happen anywhere. and it never happened here before, it never happened here until it happened repeatedly in america and then started spreading around because some sick people want to mimick everything american because they think it's somehow "cool". sorry if i find it somehow belittling to say that since it's happened in america, it is "not shocking" it can happen anywhere. maybe so, but it is STILL very shocking, wherever it happens! we cannot just say "oh well, just one more of these cases". it's always VERY shocking. we shouldn't belittle it like this but pay MORE attention to everything than before. because it's dangerous to say it's not shocking if we think like this, we stop caring for each other and we stop respecting each other like we should. sentiments like this only make it happen more and more because it means we somehow start accepting these things as part of something "normal". but just because something starts to happen more and more often it still doesn't mean it's "normal".
there's nothing to justify any single one of this kind of acts.
ok i'm sorry to say such things aloud but i am just angry towards this sick americanism today.
because the truth is that we mostly get bad things like this through it, it's just quite difficult to think anything positive that it brought us. :/
I apologize. I shouldn't of used the term shockind. Really, the only thing that came into my mind at the time. It's a terrible tradegy that something like this does happen, no matter where.
I'm sick of my country, as well. I'm ashame of it and I hate it. And, I intentionally, want to move out of it someday. But, just can't right now.
There should be more restrictions on gun control and laws, here. It sickens me that it seems anyone can get a firearm.
I'm agrein on you totally, M.
And again, I apologize for my use of vocabulary and thoughts on the matter.
When I saw what had happened.. the first person I thought of was japanesebaby... was she safe? did she know anyone there? and how I never would have associated anything like like with Finland. It has changed my happy thoughts about the country.
Iknow the U.S. has more guns than peaople.. but I was not aware besides the war-torn countries that guns were that readily available.
Here in Australia, every since the shootings by a madman (won't mention his name, cos it feeds these psychos) in Tasmania, at Port Arthur., Australia has banned all semi automatic rifles and handguns. There was a huge cash for guns trade in, to get rid of all illegally owned and those that realised that we did not want our society to end up like America.. we didn't want another massacre here.
It feels safe here, without the guns.. only crims really have them, or farmers in the bush, or those who do it as a hobby.
Licensing is strict.
But the problem that scares me the most here, is the emergence of knife/sword stabbings, as well as the 'kingpin' punches that can knock a man to the ground, like David Hookes.
There are crazy people out there.. and most of them are young males. It makes me scared for when my son gets older and starts to go out..
(And you know the most wierdest thing... only last night on T.V. I was watching a show about the Columbine High School massacre.. )
I feel sad and my thoughts are with the people and communities involved in Finland.
This is very bad reputation to our country. I find it hard to believe and am shocked.
About the killers internet writings. If they are authentic. I don't know how some nazist and nihilist
thoughts have influenced so much that put into terrorist action some of our youth that are recieving good education. Perhaps some of our youth misunderstand everything they
read in school and misunderstand things like evolution, environmental problems,
misunderstand other mankind influenced problems and philosphers like Nietzche. I think philophy and evolution should not be taught at all in schools. Those subjects are for "more advanced" people like the killer. Perhaps not.
bluewater
What makes me upset is that the killer said to all the world throught YouTube "I'm going to kill people in THAT school". The video was seen more than 200 000 times, yet, no-one did care about!?! :?
I mean, if I would have seen that probably I would have written to japanesebaby, and maybe she could have phone to the finnish police, not?. And probably, no-one would regret all what in the end happened.
Quote from: AlluivialL on November 08, 2007, 06:53:05
and there isn't a lot we can do about it.
I know in the US the authorities can do a lot. By disallowing the easy-access to guns, for start. But what surprises me a lot is that more US citizens support the idea of having guns. I mean, if this mentality does not change, those cases will happen again and again...
EVERY DAY ALL OF US MEET AT LEAST ONE DERANGED PERSON (ON THE STREET, IN THE BUS, IN THE SCHOOL, ...), THE FACT THAT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM CAN LEGALLY GET A GUN ANY DAY WOULD MAKE ME PRETTY AFRAID!
:-D
Quote from: dsanchez on November 08, 2007, 16:02:47
Quote from: AlluivialL on November 08, 2007, 06:53:05
and there isn't a lot we can do about it.
I know in the US the authorities can do a lot. By disallowing the easy-access to guns, for start. But what surprises me a lot is that more US citizens support the idea of having guns. I mean, if this mentality does not change, those cases will happen again and again...
I couldn't agree with you more. Something needs to be done.
Quote from: dsanchez on November 08, 2007, 16:02:47
Quote from: AlluivialL on November 08, 2007, 06:53:05
and there isn't a lot we can do about it.
I know in the US the authorities can do a lot. By disallowing the easy-access to guns, for start. But what surprises me a lot is that more US citizens support the idea of having guns. I mean, if this mentality does not change, those cases will happen again and again...
there is a lot that can be done.. It has happened in Australia.. WE made it change! Be vocal, write letters to members of parliament,government, if u are passionate, do it!!
Stamp your feet.. let your voices be heard!! :smth057
:rocker If we want peace for our generation and the next.. we must ask for boundaries.. safe living for our children.. not just to be anti-war.. but PRO PEACE!!
That is what I want.
what i find alarming is that one day after the shooting there was already these groups forming on internet that were supporting the shooter and admiring what he had done, considering him as some kind of a hero. i heard for instance facebook had one group like this. videos that admire this shooter are being uploaded on youtube all the time.
also, there were fake alarms in two other schools in finland today, as someone put some rumours on internet that this or that school was going to be the next target. a lot of students got scared and just walked out and left school in the middle of the school day because of this. it is really awful if children have to become afraid to go to school because they have to fear that someone might harm them. as a teacher myself, i see this as being something really awful development.
and to fake these kind of things as some kind of "homage" to the shooter - that's just really so irresponsible and displays such complete immaturity.
It is alarming.. I try not to watch news at it is!!
There will always be that copy-cat group, just ike the columbine, serial killers, etc... glorified "natural selection".. let them target this.. f**k off and kill yourselves.. not other people..
trauma will affect a lot of people in Finland in different ways, for a long time. It happened here. I just hope that the health services there are well adapted for this on-going situation.
I do wish the world would be calm. :smth084
We all want peace. Prayers to everyone. :smth083
I have through this site, been more aware of the rest of the world. Thank god. And, thanks to our common connection, music.
Quote from: japanesebaby on November 09, 2007, 14:16:35
and to fake these kind of things as some kind of "homage" to the shooter - that's just really so irresponsible and displays such complete immaturity.
A professor from Harvard University came last year to my University to talk about the "free culture" and all the pros and cos of the freedom in the Web. At the end he says that he's almost sure in the future everyone will have to identify himself when accesing a computer. Thought it goes against the "freedom in the Web" looks like the only way to stop such insane people.
Whilst we are still reeling from yet another tragedy sparked by one persons' actions, it was interesting to me, to hear my Mum ( in her 80th year) comment about "the world gone mad". I gently reminded her that infact, she, my Dad and all their brothers and sisters witnessed and were forced to become involved in one of the worlds greatest atrocities, the second world war.( They were all born in the U.K.) Millions of innocent people lost, thousands of them led to their death just because they were of a specific race. All started by one man.
unfortunately it's not even a joke:
http://www.westborobaptistchurch.com/fliers/nov2007/20071108_nine-dead-finns.pdf
these things always activate the fundamentalists, it's so freaking sad. and it's alwasy the same: remember how they started to accuse marilyn manosn after columbine massacre? now there's already rather heated discussion in finland about how the music that the shooter was listening to affected him - even the finnish national broadcasting company YLE has made such references through one of their programs/editors, how the fact that the shooter listeend to a black metal band called Impaled nazarrine had directly something to do with this. that's so childish. i can somehow understand (or "understand" - i don't really understand it but i have to accept it because it always happens anyway) some idiotic tabloids doing that, but i've really lost some of my respect towards YLE now. as a national broadcasting company they should know their responsibility a lot better.
japanesebaby was that link for real?? from what I could only glance at, because it was filled with such rubbish and I just can't believe it! Did that come from a church group? Am I mistaken? Please tell me I am.
yeah i'm afraid it's very real. these guys are pretty notorious i think - according to them, pretty much everything is god's punishment for gays. now they have unquestionable proof that finnish people are nothing but sodomites who are being punished for their filthy sins. ok...
http://www.westborobaptistchurch.com/
some of the links on that site could actually be taken as being just some bad jokes, if one didn't know any better. like www.godhatesmexico.com:
"WBC Thanks God For 900,000 People Made Homeless By Flooding In Mexico
Viva La Flooding- See This Article About The Flooding Done To Evil Mexico"
but since they are actually being serious with all that... :smth095
(i think especially their sign saying "god hates you" is pretty unreal - wow. i always thought jesus tried to teach us poor stubborn folks to love each other, but i guess i must have gotten it all wrong. i'm pretty sure he hates us all. just like his dad.)
Unfortunately, we dont' live in a world where the sun always shines or where the birds always sing. Or a world without violence, hatred or racism.
Bad news :smth011
Police Arrest 16-year-old for Threatening Internet Video (http://www.yle.fi/news/left/id74722.html)
Good news :smth001
Finland to toughen gun laws after school massacre (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Finland_to_toughen_gun_laws_after_school_massacre/articleshow/2530961.cms)
Quote from: dsanchez on November 11, 2007, 16:46:41
Bad news :smth011
Police Arrest 16-year-old for Threatening Internet Video (http://www.yle.fi/news/left/id74722.html)
it's a pretty serious crime. a person can face several years of imprisonment for doing such a thing, even if it was a joke like the boy says. :smth011
Quote from: dsanchez on November 11, 2007, 16:46:41
Good news :smth001
Finland to toughen gun laws after school massacre (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Finland_to_toughen_gun_laws_after_school_massacre/articleshow/2530961.cms)
i don't mind that at all.
although i have to add the information on this site is not exactly comprehensive and might give a bit distorted impression. because it says:
Finnish law currently allows 15-year-olds to own guns. this is true but it does NOT mean similar gun ownership rights as for instance in america. yes, 15 year-old can only own a license to handle a gun for instance on cases like being part of a hunting party or as taking part in a sport team (after all, various shooting events are part of olympics too as we know). but it is NOT possible here that a 15 year-old can go and just buy a hand gun just like that. one needs to apply for a license from the police.
i don't want to (and i don't need to) defend our laws because it's a fact that we still have too many guns. that's true. but i say this because people seem to think it's just as easy to get a gun here as in america and that any gun-crazy person can get a gun at will - because it's not quite like that. the finnish gunlaws have allowed 15 year-olds to handle guns mostly because there's been a very long tradition of hunting in finland. otherwise the gun laws have actually been pretty strict here, if one really compares it to other countries.
German Police Close School After Internet Alert (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,518422,00.html)
Germany is getting jumpy about school shootings. Police on Tuesday closed the second school in two days after receiving an Internet warning about a possible rampage being planned there. They have cautiously sounded the all clear.
:?
I haven't watched the news for a while, so I'm not sure what's going on in the U.S., but, I saw a news flash saying that the U.S. Supreme Court is going to revise the gun situation in their country. :smth023
Is this correct? Can anyone from the U.S. clarify what's going on? Has a recent or past event riggered this court action?
I know it is part of the constitution to bear arms..and have the right to defend themselves.. I hope that this can be changed.. to make a safer community and lay down arms, like here, to set an example.. we don't need to shoot one another!!
:rocker
Japanesebaby...you say that 15 year olds can apply for a gun license through the police. At what age are your young ones legally allowed to ..drive...vote...drink alcohol? I am just curious as to what age your government deems teenagers to be "adults". Here in South Oz, to drive they must be (I think) 16 and a half to start off with,and are on Learners license, where they must have a fully qualified driver with them at all times. After a period of time, they can apply for and have a test to gain the "Probationary" licence, where there is zero tolerance to alcohol whilst driving and they must be on the 'P's" for (I think!) a couple of years or close to it. Then, they can have another test to gain the full licence (.05 alcohol tolerance). To vote and legally drink alcohol, they must be 18..( of course the alcohol thing is always laughed at, but to BUY alcohol you must be 18) Fifteen seems so young to be able to handle a gun, in spite of a hunting tradition. I am not having a go at your country or traditions, not at all...just interested why the government deems a 15 year old mature enough to get their hands on a gun! And to all you 15 year olds out there swearing at me..."sticks and stones".. ;)
Quote from: japanesebaby on November 10, 2007, 16:37:28
yeah i'm afraid it's very real. these guys are pretty notorious i think - according to them, pretty much everything is god's punishment for gays. now they have unquestionable proof that finnish people are nothing but sodomites who are being punished for their filthy sins. ok...
http://www.westborobaptistchurch.com/
some of the links on that site could actually be taken as being just some bad jokes, if one didn't know any better. like www.godhatesmexico.com:
"WBC Thanks God For 900,000 People Made Homeless By Flooding In Mexico
Viva La Flooding- See This Article About The Flooding Done To Evil Mexico"
but since they are actually being serious with all that... :smth095
(i think especially their sign saying "god hates you" is pretty unreal - wow. i always thought jesus tried to teach us poor stubborn folks to love each other, but i guess i must have gotten it all wrong. i'm pretty sure he hates us all. just like his dad.)
Ugh, those people disgust me. I can't even read the garbage they spit out without cringing. :smth011
and again:
http://cbs5.com/national/finland.school.shooting.2.823381.html
:x
Quote from: japanesebaby on September 23, 2008, 14:28:12
and again:
http://cbs5.com/national/finland.school.shooting.2.823381.html
:x
Yes, I just received this info on my phone !!! :smth011
crazy world !!!
These are sad news :(
The world is really strange sometimes.
Poor family members and friends of the victims :(
My deepest sympathy.
video from the shooter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_m4TzHTDdQ
:?
news in the peruvian newspapper
http://peru21.pe/noticia/216991/al-menos-muertos-dejo-tiroteo-escuela-finlandia
how this can happen again? really something to worry about jb :(
Terrible news!
The guy managed to kill nine people!!!
:x
Quote from: dsanchez on September 23, 2008, 21:10:11
video from the shooter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
how this can happen again? really something to worry about jb :(
Again with the YouTube videos...
This might become the newest fad!
and now, after the second such event in just a year, the prime minister is going to review that country's gun laws.... kind of shutting the gate after the horse has bolted...more innocent people shot down by a young person with a gun.... let's hope this time there is action re the gun laws in this country..allowing 15 year olds to have a gun? what sort of madness is that?..... so, so sad....
This is truly horrible news...My heart goes out to all the families and friends who lost loved ones.
What more has to happen before something changes?
Bad news are always in bigger letters. Peruvian largest newspapper "El Comercio" about the shooting:
http://www.elcomercio.com.pe/EdicionImpresa/diarios/20080924/ecpr240908a1.jpg
"Serán los próximos en morir"... y mató a 10 = "You will die next"... and he killed 10.
In small letters its written that finnish police arrested him one day before and let him free :shock:s :?
jb, what mesures are going to take the politicians about this matter? It's so easy in Finland to get weapons like in the US? :(
.. my heart goes out to those involved and traumatised by this event.. of course, my initial thought was J.B. okay? , and was it related to her .. :shock:
I hope that guns will be banned and traded in, like we have here in OZ.. :!:
P.S. : David.. that picture of the gunman pointing straight at the screen is very, very threatening.. I hate anyone pointing, let alone, a gun towards me. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THIS CAN BE REMOVED.. ?
thanks in advance.
scatcat
Quote from: melly on September 24, 2008, 11:22:09
allowing 15 year olds to have a gun? what sort of madness is that?.....
Quote from: dsanchez on September 24, 2008, 14:49:35
It's so easy in Finland to get weapons like in the US? :(
no, it's not at all like in the US. yes, it's true that a 15-year old can get a license to use a gun here but only under parent's supervision/permission. 15-year olds that have gun licenses are for instance members of some hunting clubs, owning a right to use a hunting rifle under supervision. or members of some sport clubs (after all, shooting is an olympic sport too...).
so it's not at all like it the US: nobody here can just walk into a store and buy any gun he/she wants. can't happen. you
always do need to apply a license from the police and the police are obliged to personally meet and interview every person who is applying for a gun license.
but still, these things happen... so i suppose even if it's not so easy to get a gun, those who are really determined to get one will also find a way. how do you stop such people? by making laws? madmen don't respect the laws...
so it's not just about making tighter laws: i think we should start paying attention to why people feel such anger, what makes them do such things? what makes them feel so bad? what's wrong in our society? we need to start paying more attention to mental healthcare and stuff like this. just passing tighter gun laws won't do the same.
there's been a new gun law under works for quite some time, a tighter one. i think this will press it onwards now - and there is talk that it might now become completely illegal for a private individual person to own a hand gun her at all.
but what is really sad here is that the police actually did know about this guy and interviewed him just one day before the shooting. some people had reported the videos the guy put on youtube (which shows that the general public is alert - which is good). the kauhajoki police called for this guy for an interview - but they let him walk. why? was it a mistake? of course it was. but it's not entirely clear what happened there. the shooter himself removed some of the worst shooting videos from his youtube account before the police interview so the local police that interviewd(questioned him didn't necessarily realize all that was in there.
i'm not defending the police who let him walk because obviously they did a horrible mistake. but madmen are known to be clever and fool others - so perhaps he was clever and kept it cool and managed to act his way throughout the interview, without noone really noticing. i don't know. it's still quite unclear all that went on there, in those police interviews.
but it's ridiculous that there were SO many similarities between this guy and the jokela shooter, for instance in all those videos that this shooter made - and still the police let him walk.... the recent news (discovered after the shooting) show that this new shooter was very likely to have been in contact with the jokela shooter.
so of course the police should have been alarmed by this and acted and taken his gun license away from him right away!
I am glad that u are okay J.B. :smth002
thanks scatcat.
i'm fine, but i suppose it's been pretty depressing in general, such low spirits all around. shocked disbelief everywhere, especially among the students. and that's not good.
just imagining how it's there in kauhajoki: because it's a really small place, population just something like 15,000 or so...
it's really tough for such a small community to find a way to deal with such a bad thing.
Quote from: scatcat on September 24, 2008, 18:23:28
I hate anyone pointing, let alone, a gun towards me. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THIS CAN BE REMOVED.. ?
Not possible. At least 250 000 of this newspapper is circulating in Peru, not to mention the other thousands on the Internet (!!)
Now if you mean the particular image I inserted, I think the best thing to deal with these kind of freaks is facing them. Don't you?
I think publishing this murderous bastards' face here is so very wrong David. As you stated, it's in all the newspapers, on the TV and links are provided for those who want to have a look. To have the photograph of him, gun pointed, on a music based fan site is so wrong on so many levels. The lack of respect to the members here, who do NOT want to be confronted with such an image, but more importantly, it is a lack of respect for the many people who were slain by this deranged human being, their families and the community where this occured. He has gained notoriety through the press, his cruel image plastered everywhere. People may filter through this thread, to pass on condolences, to catch up on any news JB may have, or to discuss the tragedy of it all. To see that picture is gut wrenching and highly confrontational to anyone with a decorum of humanity.
Your flippant retort to scatcat blew me away. This is NOT about a fear of spiders, heights or escalators. This is a human tragedy, which affects people in many different ways.When I saw him there, the barrel of his gun pointed, it turned my stomach and made me shiver. Many, many people will be horrified and frightened by that image, and I, for one, request that you remove it immediately. Saying "the best way to deal with these freaks is to face them" is so out of context in this situation, and I am shocked to hear that coming from you.
A murderer has no place in this forum David, and you should not subject your members to the picture of this evil, deranged man. Let them go to the links everywhere if they really want to view that picture.
Sorry David, but this time, you are so very, very wrong.
Quote from: melly on September 26, 2008, 04:10:22
I think publishing this murderous bastards' face here is so very wrong David. As you stated, it's in all the newspapers, on the TV and links are provided for those who want to have a look. To have the photograph of him, gun pointed, on a music based fan site is so wrong on so many levels. The lack of respect to the members here, who do NOT want to be confronted with such an image, but more importantly, it is a lack of respect for the many people who were slain by this deranged human being, their families and the community where this occured.
actually i agree with david. the only way to deal with these things is to face them, in one way another. hiding from them and/or putting them away from our minds (to help ourselves to feel better) is not a solution.
and since it's in all newspapers already, it's all around - what difference does it make to post it here? the context is what matters, not the pic itself. and the context here is a healthy one. nobody glorifies this shooter here.
a psychiarist said on a tv last night something very true: she said that the worst thing to do is to remain silent, not to talk about and trying to shut it out of your mind. that is how fear starts growing, suspicion towards others. and the bad thing about fear is that it's contagious. it starts spreading. and once it's on the move, it's difficult to stop. so the most important thing now is not to remain silent.
i agree with that completely. for those people who actually had to go through that shooting experience themselves it must be the most painful thing, to go back to those memories and face them again - but it's also the only way to heal. for us who weren't even there it's also just as important to keep the images in our mind now, not to push them back. because we need to work for a better community where this sort of things would not have to happen. and therefore if we want to work for it, it is most important for everyone to face the incident, try to understand why it happened (if we can). that's part of the whole community's/society's healing process.
i don't agree posting a pic outright means showing lack of respect to the victims - it completely depends on what sort of context you post such a pic. and at least i see no no-respect/ill context here.
just my two cents. actually i don't want to promote this discussion since imo we should all rather talk about the incident and it's effects, not focus on sidetracks such as whether it's ok to post some (already widely published pic!) here or not. we must remember we were not the ones who suffered form this awful thing - other people did. what we can do is try to promote the awareness, so that it would not happen again. therefore discussion is necessary and it must be openly allowed. we not hide our heads in the bushes if something ugly comes our way - that's letting the ugly things win.
but whatever we all say or write here: everyone has the right and a reason to his/her thoughts and feelings. you and me.
at least let's not turn this into another just another quarrel. let's keep an open mind.
Quote from: melly on September 26, 2008, 04:10:22
A murderer has no place in this forum David, and you should not subject your members to the picture of this evil, deranged man. Let them go to the links everywhere if they really want to view that picture.
Sorry David, but this time, you are so very, very wrong.
This topic is about a masacre, which includes both the victims and the hitman. I wonder what's the difference between posting a newspapper frontpage (and by the way "El Comercio" is the most serious and respected newspapper in Peru) and placing a link to the youtube video of the hitman. No-one said nothing about that link.
If someone feels disturbed by a newspapper frontpage then scroll down the page or don't read this topic and problem solved. Sorry but I don't see why to make problems for this. We're talking about a masacre, so let's see who caused that.
People who feel affected for this picture maybe should edit the Wikipedia article were a photo of the hitman is shown as well :roll:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Saari_internet_video.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_shooting_incident
(and maybe complain about the thousands of blogs and websites who did the "terrible mistake" of publishing a murderer's pic)
I just would like to say a few very general things that might be related to this. Maybe they are too obvious, but I'll just say them anyway...
First: "evil" is in ALL of us. That power to destroy is born with us and remains with us until we die.
Second: "good" is also in all of us.
Third: in a healthy human being both these two features are balanced, so that neither is strong enough to completely destroy the other (yes, this means that a human being who is totally "good" - if such a thing is possible, anyway - is also a sick human being).
Fourth: the way our societies are organized does more to promote the "evil" in us than the "good".
It's no wonder that tragedies happen. They will continue to happen and most probably it will only get worse...
Quote from: dsanchez on September 26, 2008, 10:23:47
(and maybe complain about the thousands of blogs and websites who did the "terrible mistake" of publishing a murderer's pic)
that is my point...people can go to those sites and peer at him... and go to all the links provided here there and everywhere if they really, really need to see this guy and his gun, I have already said that..but, don't worry about it, you just don't get what I'm saying.
Yes,people do need to discuss and be so very aware of situations like this, it shreds my heart to think of the innocent lives lost.
Just because people do not want to see that picture, doesn't mean they don't care, deeply.
We at least can have the choice of looking or not looking at him, unlike his victims...
:smth009 .. the reason why I asked for the article's picture with the gunman pointing the gun directly, is personal. I have had a gun pointed at me. It is traumatic.
I can understand where both David & J.B. are coming from, about the links etc.. If I had wanted to see them, I would have CHOSEN to: I did not. I am not hiding, or being ignorant.. I am just asking for the image to be removed. I find it unnecessary. We all have heard what he has done.
i just went to see new model army. by coincidence, the last time they were here was almost exactly a year ago, right after the jokela shooting incident. justin sullivan made a note of this, how they unfortunately always seem to come here on a bad bad week. last year he made some genuinely grim and angry words about the cowardness of these shooters, followed by a pretty intense version of 'purity'.
this time he said something before 'high', something that i found really true, something very similar to what i myself have always found very solacing. he said:
"when bad stuff happens - i know this is a bad week in lots of different ways - and when bad stuff happens the best thing to do is to get high - by which i mean not smoking drugs and stuff which is the kind of an easy way. but actually - and it's difficult in this country cause it's flat - but you find somewhere high, a mountain or a top of a high building, and you look out over the whole land and you know it'll still be exactly the same long time after we're all dead - which is a good feeling.
this is called 'high'."
...The movers move, the shakers shake, the winners write their history
But from high on the high hills it all looks like nothing
All these things you fear so much depend on angles of vision
From down in the maze of walls you can't see what's coming
But from high on the high hills it all looks like nothing
But from high on the high hills it all looks like nothing, nothing...
Two die in German school shooting
At least two people have been killed in a shooting at a school in south-west Germany, police say
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7936817.stm
:?
Casualties rise to 10 15
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7936817.stm
Quote from: dsanchez on March 11, 2009, 12:10:42
Casualties rise to 10
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7936817.stm
What a cruel world we lived in :smth011
makes you so angry. :x
these shooter cowards. they could shoot themselves if they really have to but should let the others be. :roll:
Quote from: dsanchez on March 11, 2009, 11:17:02Two die in German school shooting
At least two people have been killed in a shooting at a school in south-west Germany, police say
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7936817.stm
:?
Not exactly school-related, but it must have been "international crazy day" or something:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-alabama-shooting_11mar11,0,2137741.story
:(
Quote from: lostflower4 on March 13, 2009, 22:59:45
Quote from: dsanchez on March 11, 2009, 11:17:02Two die in German school shooting
At least two people have been killed in a shooting at a school in south-west Germany, police say
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7936817.stm
:?
Not exactly school-related, but it must have been "international crazy day" or something:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-alabama-shooting_11mar11,0,2137741.story
:(
i read about that too. :( :(
April 3th 2009
"Twelve or 13 people were killed when a gunman opened fire in an immigration services center in Binghamton, N.Y., Gov. David A. Paterson said Friday."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/04/nyregion/04hostage.html?_r=1&hp
:?
:(
a highly disturbed man shoots his ex-girlfriend who he had been harassing for 10 years. the man went to the store where she worked, shot her and also shot her work colleagues (who had been known to give her help against that lunatic). everything happened in a busy mall on new year's eve.
if some people want to shoot themselves because they are disappointed with their own lives, by all means, they can go ahead, i won't object. but these wackos who need to prove something by taking other people with them - :roll: :evil:
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/12/six_dead_following_shooting_rampage_1331619.html (http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/12/six_dead_following_shooting_rampage_1331619.html)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8435857.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8435857.stm)
Today:
"On December 14, 2012, 28 people, including 20 children, were killed in a mass shooting in the Sandy Hook village of Newtown, Connecticut. Eighteen children and six adults were killed at Sandy Hook Elementary School, before the gunman, tentatively identified as Adam Lanza, 20, shot himself."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting)
I don't live in the US but is incredible that you can buy there guns like if you were buying chewing gums. I think until this is not changes, terrible things like this will likely happen again.