Future remasters...

Started by rjl, August 04, 2007, 23:03:33

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japanesebaby

Quote from: Bloodflower on September 05, 2007, 03:11:58
And I really want to see Entreat expanded to a composite of the three shows. One version of every song played at Wembley in 1989. Though, ideally, I'd like all three concerts.....

if it happens, i'd really hope entreat would be just one of the wembley songs in its entirety. i know i'd be pretty disappointedif they made a composite of three nights, some "imaginary super-wembley concert" that never took place. imo the concept of a composite  works ok on the original entreat because it was originally aimed at and offering just some glimpses from the shows, nothing more.
i'd really prefer a complete soundboard (at last!) from one prayer tour gig than any cutandpaste work.
i've also grown tired of the trilogy and the show for the same reasons, as much as i've enjoyed them in the past (especially the latter one). if i watch/listen to them nowadays i get so irritated by the fact that it's not a real concert anyway, it never did take place like that.
so even if there were screw ups/some inferior versions had to be included (because surely the best versions of all the songs are not likely to be found on the same night's set), i'd still prefer a complete third night (or the second - or the first) of wembley over anything else there.
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

Steve

@JB
3rd night, 3rd night......pleeeeeeaaaase :D

Best of the 3 IMHO.

& I thought Entreat was a bit "thin" sounding, so I hope they give it a bit more body on the re-master.
Cheers
Steve
I know tomorrow's going to taste like cake
http://www.balatonfured.hu/en_index.php

rjl

A complete Wembley show would indeed be awesome, but how often is it that a band (excepting the Grateful Dead and their "Dick's Picks" series) releases an entire live set - or if it's a full set, a live disc comprising only one night/source?

I never quite got the reason. Maybe it's so that traders don't trade them amongst themselves... But that never made any sense, as traders are such a small niche segment of the listening/purchasing audience. And the "no official releases" mantra pretty much prevents that, at least in a self-policing way. And these days, it's not the live-stuff traders that you need to worry about when it comes to unauthorized re-distribution of commercially-available material (rather, anyone with an internet connection, an MP3 encoder and a P2P client).

But I digress... A complete Wembley set would be awesome. A complete 3-night Wembley box-set would be a DREAM.

Although I cannot imagine an industry person viewing so many repeated songs in one release as terribly commercially viable, regardless as to whether or not it's true.

I wonder how much "pull" the Cure have, now that they aren't with a "major".

(I forget... is SureTone an imprint of a "major"? I thought it may be Geffen, but RS mentioned in a recent post that they were not on Geffen / Geffen had no sway over their decisions)

dsanchez

Quote from: japanesebaby on September 05, 2007, 07:21:26
i've also grown tired of the trilogy and the show for the same reasons, as much as i've enjoyed them in the past (especially the latter one). if i watch/listen to them nowadays i get so irritated by the fact that it's not a real concert anyway, it never did take place like that.

This is another reason why I still think "In Orange" was the best Cure concert ever. Everything we see in the video was shooted in a single day. No mixes, no cut/paste.
2023.11.22 Lima
2023.11.27 Montevideo

rjl

Quote from: dsanchez on September 05, 2007, 17:34:34
This is another reason why I still think "In Orange" was the best Cure concert ever. Everything we see in the video was shooted in a single day. No mixes, no cut/paste.

Everything was shot in two days, for that one. They had another day of shooting... I think the day before the show, without the crowd... for some close-ups, etc.

If you watch closely, there are some instrument changes, mid-song.

dsanchez

Quote from: rjl on September 05, 2007, 17:53:46
Quote from: dsanchez on September 05, 2007, 17:34:34
This is another reason why I still think "In Orange" was the best Cure concert ever. Everything we see in the video was shooted in a single day. No mixes, no cut/paste.

Everything was shot in two days, for that one. They had another day of shooting... I think the day before the show, without the crowd... for some close-ups, etc.

If you watch closely, there are some instrument changes, mid-song.

Yes, but all the live filming from Orange was done in a single day. The Trilogy for instance, is a combination of two concerts, Show too, etc.
2023.11.22 Lima
2023.11.27 Montevideo

japanesebaby

Quote from: dsanchez on September 05, 2007, 18:17:00
Quote from: rjl on September 05, 2007, 17:53:46
Quote from: dsanchez on September 05, 2007, 17:34:34
This is another reason why I still think "In Orange" was the best Cure concert ever. Everything we see in the video was shooted in a single day. No mixes, no cut/paste.

Everything was shot in two days, for that one. They had another day of shooting... I think the day before the show, without the crowd... for some close-ups, etc.

If you watch closely, there are some instrument changes, mid-song.

Yes, but all the live filming from Orange was done in a single day.

no it's still video footage from two days - they are just faking it/making everyone to believe that it all was filmed in one day... ;)
the audio supposed to come from one night, but i'm not 100% convinced that they didn't clean up some screw-ups from the audio too in the process...
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

dsanchez

Quote from: japanesebaby on September 05, 2007, 21:09:52
no it's still video footage from two days - they are just faking it/making everyone to believe that it all was filmed in one day... ;)

You're kidding, right? :D

Quote from: japanesebaby on September 05, 2007, 21:09:52
the audio supposed to come from one night, but i'm not 100% convinced that they didn't clean up some screw-ups from the audio too in the process...

But that's not normal? An edition, arrangement of the audio it's normal before it comes out as an "official release", not?
2023.11.22 Lima
2023.11.27 Montevideo

japanesebaby

Quote from: dsanchez on September 05, 2007, 21:27:35
Quote from: japanesebaby on September 05, 2007, 21:09:52
no it's still video footage from two days - they are just faking it/making everyone to believe that it all was filmed in one day... ;)

You're kidding, right? :D

no i'm not kidding, it's true. it's like rjl wrote earlier in this thread: they had another night for shooting additional video footage, yet they did that without audience. so there were no two concerts - but there surely were two nights of shooting.
you can really notice this when you watch the video very closely.

Quote from: dsanchez on September 05, 2007, 21:27:35
Quote from: japanesebaby on September 05, 2007, 21:09:52
the audio supposed to come from one night, but i'm not 100% convinced that they didn't clean up some screw-ups from the audio too in the process...

But that's not normal? An edition, arrangement of the audio it's normal before it comes out as an "official release", not?

hmmm well, it could be somewhat common but i'm not sure it's something that should be necessary done.
so maybe it's not exactly "normal". i somehow dislike the idea that they fixed some wrong notes they played/solos they maybe screwed-up - that's why i like live bootlegs: no fixing, no editing, no nothing like this. just as it is.
then again, wrong notes on official releases can also drive you mad (because you can't get rid of it, they'll always be there). so on the other hand....
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

dsanchez

Quote from: japanesebaby on September 05, 2007, 21:36:00
no i'm not kidding, it's true. it's like rjl wrote earlier in this thread: they had another night for shooting additional video footage, yet they did that without audience. so there were no two concerts - but there surely were two nights of shooting.
you can really notice this when you watch the video very closely.

But this is also what I wrote to rjl. The important point here is that the boys made it the LIVE show in a single day. I mean, they didn't play twice in Orange and then picked up the best from every show (like in "Show" for instance).

Quote from: japanesebaby on September 05, 2007, 21:09:52
the audio supposed to come from one night, but i'm not 100% convinced that they didn't clean up some screw-ups from the audio too in the process...
hmmm well, it could be somewhat common but i'm not sure it's something that should be necessary done.
so maybe it's not exactly "normal". i somehow dislike the idea that they fixed some wrong notes they played/solos they maybe screwed-up - that's why i like live bootlegs: no fixing, no editing, no nothing like this. just as it is.
then again, wrong notes on official releases can also drive you mad (because you can't get rid of it, they'll always be there). so on the other hand....
I have to disagree here. I think is perfectly normal if they fix something for an official release. As you said, for the rest we've got the boots  :P

2023.11.22 Lima
2023.11.27 Montevideo

japanesebaby

#25
Quote from: japanesebaby on September 05, 2007, 21:36:00
i'm not saying one shouldn't fix/edit anything. but where's the limit, where to stop? i just mean that i sort of hate the idea (or let's say the possibility of it) that what if too much got fixed there - because how can we tell how much they fixed or didn't fix?

We will never know. Artist is the only who will know this :roll:
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

rjl

Quote from: dsanchez on September 05, 2007, 21:40:51
But this is also what I wrote to rjl. The important point here is that the boys made it the LIVE show in a single day. I mean, they didn't play twice in Orange and then picked up the best from every show (like in "Show" for instance).

I didn't say anything to the contrary, far as I know. There was one night of live "concert" filming, and another one without the audience. Anyhow, I don't really see a noteworthy distinction between that and something like Trilogy. In both cases, you have a product representing one show, which just happens to use extra footage to smooth things out, etc. (e.g. Get some close-ups without disrupting an actual live show).

Whether or not an audience was there for some of the footage that was mixed in isn't terribly relevant, the way I see it.

Unless I am missing/misunderstanding something...

Bloodflower

I can't understand preferring one night of Wembley as opposed to the best of three nights. To me, it seems like recording an album using only the first (or second, or third, etc.) take. Why would you do that for an official release? It doesn't make any sense.

I'd MUCH rather have one massive three-disc set consisting of every song played at Wembley in 1989 than, in the best-case scenario, the third night at Wembley in its entirety.

The composite would give us 42 song, something like 03:50:00 of the Prayer Tour, with the best versions getting airplay.

The third night at Wembley would give us 35 songs at something like 03:15:00, with the following not making it on the set:

Cold
The Figurehead
A Strange Day
The Holy Hour
Hot Hot Hot!!!
Kyoto Song (your favourite, M!)
Play For Today

That's criminal, at best. My favourite tracks off the Wembley shows are The Figurehead and The Holy Hour (along with that awesome version of One Hundred Years and the glory of those two awesome versions of Faith).

And what do you do if the second night was chosen, and you have no 'Faith' on the set? It would be, in as non-hyperbolic terms as I am able to put it into, the end of the f*cking world.

Just my thoughts....

(I still think we'll get all of Disintegration, and probably nothing else.)
Another Curefan for The Dark Christmas album.

japanesebaby

Quote from: Bloodflower on September 06, 2007, 08:02:40
I can't understand preferring one night of Wembley as opposed to the best of three nights. To me, it seems like recording an album using only the first (or second, or third, etc.) take. Why would you do that for an official release? It doesn't make any sense.

I'd MUCH rather have one massive three-disc set consisting of every song played at Wembley in 1989 than, in the best-case scenario, the third night at Wembley in its entirety.

The composite would give us 42 song, something like 03:50:00 of the Prayer Tour, with the best versions getting airplay.

The third night at Wembley would give us 35 songs at something like 03:15:00, with the following not making it on the set:

Cold
The Figurehead
A Strange Day
The Holy Hour
Hot Hot Hot!!!
Kyoto Song (your favourite, M!)
Play For Today

That's criminal, at best. My favourite tracks off the Wembley shows are The Figurehead and The Holy Hour (along with that awesome version of One Hundred Years and the glory of those two awesome versions of Faith).

And what do you do if the second night was chosen, and you have no 'Faith' on the set? It would be, in as non-hyperbolic terms as I am able to put it into, the end of the f*cking world.

Just my thoughts....

(I still think we'll get all of Disintegration, and probably nothing else.)

it doesn't make any sense? geez.... well if it doesn't... but to me preferring some kind of "ok so this gig never existed but we're sort of faking that it sort of took place" composite doesn't make any more sense either.
so yes, if i could choose i'd take a soandboard for one full gig a thousand times before than any sort of composite: we already have one composite (entreat) so please, not again!
some points...:
simply, the dynamics of one single show, from beginning to an end.
if they'd just put all the songs played on those three nights together, there wouldn't be one. the dynamics would fall apart, it would be just one single song after another. no real continuity between adjacent tracks, no real structure. that alone is enough for me to vote for a non-composite anytime.
so i guess that'll remain my only point at this time. ;)

and ok so the composite would maybe give us 42 songs. but i'm way past my "more is the best!" days - i'd rather have something structured, something with a real feeling of a real performance, something where the songs follow each other naturally as they did in that night. i'd much rather sit down and let myself be engulfed by the flow of one single great concert, its arch from beginning to and end.
for me that would be more precious experience than having every song they played there.

second night: even if they did what i hope they'd do (=give us one single night and not some butchered cut-and-paste thing again) i'd doubt it they'd choose the second. anyway, wouldn't be the end of the world for me if there was no 'faith'. it's a good gig anyway. if i had to choose from a composite vs. second night complete i'd still take second night. the gig as a whole, the gig itself means more than one single song in it. it's as simpleas that. i mean, i don't like the sort of "jukebox mentality", where the individual songs are the only thing that counts. the more i listen to live shows, the more i listen to the whole of it, not the separate songs. about more: some gigs are not better than other because they have more songs in the set. knowing that i'll have more of something alone doesn't make me happier.

and besides, prayer tour gigs had beautiful arches, beautiful set structures. :!: if you start doing cut-and-paste and this gets lost.
it's not just a bunch songs played after one another in some half-random order... just listen through some of those sets and it shines through. for me a good gig doesn't mean a nice string of great songs well played, but composing out a concert, structuring the time by playing the right amount of songs (not too little but not too much!) in a well thought-of order.

so criminal... so yes, i'd say the composite would be criminal. the wembley gigs are too good to be maimed that way.

(@steve: yes let's hope for the third...)
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

Bloodflower

One thing, M, that bothers me about your post is the assumption that the listing of such a composite would be so half-arsed as to be just a bunch of random songs in random order. If there's one thing I think Robert's good at, it's music; if there are two things, it's tracklisting. I think he often leaves off some of his best stuff, but I think the flow of the albums he's put out (and the setlists he's made) have a good continuity to them. Yes (because someone WILL mention Jupiter Crash > Round & Round & Round and If Only Tonight We Could Sleep > Why Can't I Be You?), even if that set/tracklist means that there is a total shift in mood.

I think Robert's good enough at what he does to manage to make the whole thing flow. I think he knows better than to take a composite and not bother with structuring it. I think you suffer from being an über fan, because I don't think most people would notice anything wrong in the setlist of such a composite (assuming he did it with care -- and I very much believe he would) if they didn't know how the three nights were structured to begin with.

I don't know the reasons for your opinions beyond superficial terms; maybe you have higher-quality versions of the Wembley shows than I do, and thus don't really mind if certain songs aren't available as a soundboard-recording. I probably wouldn't hunger so badly for an awesome soundboard version of The Holy Hour or The Figurehead if I had them already from a high-quality audience recording. But then, maybe your reasons are simply as you've stated, in which case I don't understand this of you at all.

I need to go back to the comments about structure, because they really greatly bother me. Do you honestly believe that the songs couldn't be structured to fit the concert? Are you one of the people who actually CARED that Plainsong was made into an encore song on Festival 2005, when originally it had been the opener?

Obviously, we have seen that Robert is perfectly willing to rearrange the ordering of the setlist. He did so with Festival, he could do so now.

I really, passionately disagree with you, Marika, be this the internet or not. I think your whole argument shows a pretty high level of disregard for Robert's abilities at writing a decent setlist. It probably shouldn't bother me so much, but it does, and it is what it is.

And that, as they say, is that.
Another Curefan for The Dark Christmas album.