the cure wins loudness war 2008

[mahood]

having heard the last 2 singles, one on vinyl and the other one on my computer (i still need to buy freakshow), i have to say the production is IMHO the ugliest one the cure has ever done.
any part is upfront, no matter which one, and i suffocate each time i try to listen to any track : no breathing, no space, no depth --- this loudness-radio-itunes-friendly mix is becoming not only ridiculous, but painful to hear, even on vinyl!
worse : it gets even more painful with the b-sides, mud mud mud.
i really don't understand how one can bash the last self-titled LP and like this new non-production : lost, labyrinth, fake (yes, i love fake), this morning, to name my favorite ones, could not have had a better sound --- no space, no depth (well, there is, actually) here neither maybe, but because it fits some tension, because it is an aesthetical point of audition, so it works : lost is just a great compressed version of forever, and for this reason needs some musical compression. tight & speed & breathtaking, i'm exhausted before the song ends.
new songs ? just fat. the small piano part in the only one, which is the best thing this track has to offer, sounds just swallowed and split up.
i'm really afraid of what will, or probably already has, happen(ed) to underneath the stars & sleep when i'm dead, these 2 great songs, and the other ones.
i like concerts recordings, but for the first time i might just listen to them, forgetting about the studio tracks --- hoping some other ones will be played, in case the whole album is produced this way.

[lostflower4]

Yes, I've noticed this on the singles so far. It's the worst they've ever done (although the previous recent stuff was still troubling).

So you're saying that the vinyl versions aren't any better?  I know there are two ways that vinyl is made these days:

1) mastered properly for dynamics with attention to quality

2) they just use the hammered CD master source and lower the volume to make it fit on vinyl


So I guess it's #2?  That's really sad to hear.  :(

You know, I was just about to order the vinyl singles and transfer them to digital, but I guess it's pointless now. If you could confirm this, I'd really appreciate it.

i like concerts recordings, but for the first time i might just listen to them, forgetting about the studio tracks --- hoping some other ones will be played, in case the whole album is produced this way.

Yeah, it's funny how The Cure's recent live shows have tons of dynamic range. I know some bands compress their live sound to a certain degree just like studio recordings, but The Cure in 2008 don't seem to be doing it at all. It's really refreshing.

So I totally agree - even though audience recordings may not have perfect fidelity, I still find them more pleasant to listen to than modern studio recordings. They actually breathe and have life to them!

[japanesebaby]

this loudness-radio-itunes-friendly mix is becoming not only ridiculous, but painful to hear, even on vinyl!
worse : it gets even more painful with the b-sides, mud mud mud.

just listening to 'all kinds of stuff' from the cd single right now and this is by far the WORST cure studio sound i've EVER heard. one can't even focus on the song, to start listening to it whether it's a good or bad piece of music - it doesn't matter because the sounds is just SO utterly awfully bad anyway.

:(

[lostflower4]

this loudness-radio-itunes-friendly mix is becoming not only ridiculous, but painful to hear, even on vinyl!
worse : it gets even more painful with the b-sides, mud mud mud.

just listening to 'all kinds of stuff' from the cd single right now and this is by far the WORST cure studio sound i've EVER heard. one can't even focus on the song, to start listening to it whether it's a good or bad piece of music - it doesn't matter because the sounds is just SO utterly awfully bad anyway.

:(

I thought NY Trip had the worst sound of all the new stuff. I mean, I like the song - but it just sounds terrible. Very shrill treble and weak bass.

I've honestly wondered if there's a trend toward taking more bass out of recordings so they can pump up the volume even more? 

Again, I'll say it's "funny" how all the pre-WMS albums sounded superior to anything after that, even though the equipment and technology they were made with might be considered ancient by today's standards.

Even Three Imaginary Boys blows away what they're putting out now. Yeah, it sounds kind of "cheap" - but at least there's warmth and dynamics!

[revolt]

It's nice to see that people here also care about such matters. I haven't yet listened to the new Cure singles in adequate conditions so that I can judge them fairly, but this 'loudness war' thing is something that has become really ugly...

I know the example I'm going to give should mean nothing to most or even any of you, but my standard for 'ugly loud production' is the album 'The Antichrist', by German thrash-metallers Destruction. The sound has no depth, the riffs are not only weak but come with a guitar tone/mix that is completely POWERLESS, but at the same time the whole thing is so damn loud that after 2 or 3 songs I'm starting to get a headache. And I do like heavy and loud music!

Anyway, I guess this "louder-than-thou" nonsense started in the 80's, no? I remember that songs like "Lovesong" and "Pictures of You" sounded way more loud in their maxi-single (12") versions than in the albums...

[RSPJ08]

Still not possible to get freakshow here in HK  But I agree the only one/nytrip is flat

[japanesebaby]

this loudness-radio-itunes-friendly mix is becoming not only ridiculous, but painful to hear, even on vinyl!
worse : it gets even more painful with the b-sides, mud mud mud.

just listening to 'all kinds of stuff' from the cd single right now and this is by far the WORST cure studio sound i've EVER heard. one can't even focus on the song, to start listening to it whether it's a good or bad piece of music - it doesn't matter because the sounds is just SO utterly awfully bad anyway.

:(

I thought NY Trip had the worst sound of all the new stuff. I mean, I like the song - but it just sounds terrible. Very shrill treble and weak bass.

seriously, this one's the worst. i listened to it once and that's it - i can't bother to listen to it for a second time (even though i'd like to since i'd like to learn the song), since it's too painful, complete crap production.
i almost can't believe it the cure is screwing it all up like this! :x :x :x

I've honestly wondered if there's a trend toward taking more bass out of recordings so they can pump up the volume even more? 

that's been a silly trend for far too many live unofficial recordings and i always comforted myself that at least the studio stuff still includes the concept of bass - now it seems like it's going to be gone too.

i'm really pissed about this today! :x

[lostflower4]

I've honestly wondered if there's a trend toward taking more bass out of recordings so they can pump up the volume even more? 

that's been a silly trend for far too many live unofficial recordings and i always comforted myself that at least the studio stuff still includes the concept of bass - now it seems like it's going to be gone too.

i'm really pissed about this today! :x
[/quote]

I can't say I'm sure this is the case, but I have noticed that a lot of recordings from the last few years don't have a strong bass presence.

There was a big trend in the mid-late '90s / early 2000s where recordings were extra bassy, but it doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Yet recordings continue to get louder and louder, so that's just a conclusion I had.

[firecrasher]

I thought NY Trip had the worst sound of all the new stuff. I mean, I like the song - but it just sounds terrible. Very shrill treble and weak bass.

I've honestly wondered if there's a trend toward taking more bass out of recordings so they can pump up the volume even more? 

Again, I'll say it's "funny" how all the pre-WMS albums sounded superior to anything after that, even though the equipment and technology they were made with might be considered ancient by today's standards.

Even Three Imaginary Boys blows away what they're putting out now. Yeah, it sounds kind of "cheap" - but at least there's warmth and dynamics!

What do you think of the dynamics of the remasters? I don't have all of the originals to compare them with, or the new vinyls.

(hmm -- apparently the new vinyls on Vinyl Lovers stink: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/76/761294.html)

It seems the bass tone is overall quite different - things like 39 and most of the new album are very growly in tone (Thunderbird?) but don't fill out the bottom end quite as much :(

[lostflower4]

What do you think of the dynamics of the remasters? I don't have all of the originals to compare them with, or the new vinyls.

It seems the bass tone is overall quite different - things like 39 and most of the new album are very growly in tone (Thunderbird?) but don't fill out the bottom end quite as much :(

I've found the remasters to be varied in how they were processed. I noticed the first batch (1979-1981) was pumped up quite a bit in places, but still not nearly as bad as the new stuff.

The second batch of remasters (1983-1987) was more conservative. Those all have really full dynamics - basically just like the originals, only a few decibels louder, and a bit "stronger" sound with more bass, for example.

Join the Dots has some compression going on, but it's not horrible on the earlier stuff. Yes, you can see the levels are pushed - but there's still dynamic range in there, so I can live with it. Really, if the record companies would just stick with something more reasonable like that, I think everyone could be generally happy.

On a side note, I think a good happy medium (albeit a bit on the "loud" side) - is the original version of Burn from the Crow soundtrack. That was just right before the loudness war really took off, but labels were concious of getting stuff a bit louder than it used to be. And it was a good tradeoff between keeping the dynamics and getting the volume up. But then it just got crazy a couple years after that.

Back to Join the Dots, the newer stuff (especially 1995 and beyond) is the same old loudness war crap. I never really compared the "remasters" against the originals, but they seem about the same.

Of course, stuff like Galore and Greatest Hits was all crushed to crap just like everything else. I'm really happy they pretty much spared the more fan-oriented stuff like the remasters, bonus discs, and Join the Dots. That would have been a tragedy if that stuff got completely mangled too.

But a remastered 39?  I guess you're talking about the German "remastered" Bloodflowers?  Never heard that one...

[mahood]

There was a big trend in the mid-late '90s / early 2000s where recordings were extra bassy, but it doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Yet recordings continue to get louder and louder, so that's just a conclusion I had.ause

to answer the question in your first post, lf4 : possibility #2, unfortunately --- the vinyl just sounds as if they tried to apply the same treatment to the songs, very low quality here. if you already have the CDs, there is no need to have them on this format, i would say. except for the artwork, maybe.
i really don't understand this pissing contest, especially since the production has been so important & so great on cure records ; i mean, RS is not the newcomer here, how could he butcher his own songs like this ?
i had hopes about mike hedges rejoining them, after the 2004 re-recordings known as 4play, which have a sound i totally enjoy : simple, sparse, and so breathing. and i thought it was a "natural" direction to follow, because why would you reduce the number of players & instruments in the band, if you don't want a more direct, more simple sound (& of course simplicity is always the most difficult thing to obtain) ? strangely enough, this is what we hear live, hence the fact i prefer listening to "unprofessional" audience recordings.

anyway, i have also noticed this tendency to produce/master with less bass these days (after very bassy 90s indeed, this came from the electronic field mainly). but i think this has to do with the references too : new bands clearly are indebted to late 70s - early 80s post punk & "punk funk" or whatever, and so use a similar production. back then, you wouldn't hear so much bass, or only the bass would sound, well, bassy.

[japanesebaby]

i had hopes about mike hedges rejoining them, after the 2004 re-recordings known as 4play, which have a sound i totally enjoy : simple, sparse, and so breathing. and i thought it was a "natural" direction to follow, because why would you reduce the number of players & instruments in the band, if you don't want a more direct, more simple sound (& of course simplicity is always the most difficult thing to obtain) ? strangely enough, this is what we hear live, hence the fact i prefer listening to "unprofessional" audience recordings.

this is exactly what i've been thinking: why on earth this unnatural, artificial sound when the band is actually pretty bare and simple. why leave out the keyboards is they are going to add some artificial crap synth sounds over everything in the studio?
i don't get it at all.
unless this is proof that robert has lost much of his hearing and is going deaf, literally. :/

if you already have the CDs, there is no need to have them on this format, i would say. except for the artwork, maybe.

again, you steal my lines mahood!
because i was just about to post on the other thread (the threa about the realese of the new singles): "very nice artwork from porl (i really do think so) but unfortunately this record is a lot better when only watched and not listened to - and that's pretty alarming for any musical release..."

[lostflower4]

anyway, i have also noticed this tendency to produce/master with less bass these days (after very bassy 90s indeed, this came from the electronic field mainly). but i think this has to do with the references too : new bands clearly are indebted to late 70s - early 80s post punk & "punk funk" or whatever, and so use a similar production. back then, you wouldn't hear so much bass, or only the bass would sound, well, bassy.

I can understand that, and I know that mega-bass was never big in the '80s and before.

But if these bands want to be more '70s/'80s-like, then why all this loudness war crap???

Well, the sad truth is that most of this is beyond the bands' and even the producers' control.

Record labels will basically demand that a record meet a certain loudness level. And if the producer/engineer doesn't follow the orders, they'll simply be replaced or fired - and possibly even blacklisted as a bad person to work with.  :(

Even though Robert has always maintained a high degree of control over the band's work, he may not have any control over this aspect. It seems to be the same in terms of the double album idea failing once again.

Really, I think we need to come up with some massive protest here - DOWN WITH THE LOUDNESS WAR!  :twisted:

[japanesebaby]

Really, I think we need to come up with some massive protest here - DOWN WITH THE LOUDNESS WAR!  :twisted:

yes we certainly do, i've no doubt about that. but how?
should we put together an petition, trying to get it through to the band - sounds hopeless... or does it?
then again, this IS a serious thing: because we are forced to watch while they are ruining our most beloved music here! that's outrageous and calls for action, for sure.

[lostflower4]

Really, I think we need to come up with some massive protest here - DOWN WITH THE LOUDNESS WAR!  :twisted:

yes we certainly do, i've no doubt about that. but how?
should we put together an petition, trying to get it through to the band - sounds hopeless... or does it?
then again, this IS a serious thing: because we are forced to watch while they are ruining our most beloved music here! that's outrageous and calls for action, for sure.

I know that Smashing Pumpkins fans were able to get the attention of Billy Corgan over this issue on their last album. I don't think it was successful, but they actually got him to say something about it.

Well, Cure fans have certainly got Robert to publicly respond to certain issues in the past (the cancellation of the 2007 U.S. tour, certain rumors, etc.)

I think we have the ability to garner the attention if we put our minds to it.