Jason Cooper - A study of his style

[patitodark]

Robert asking Jason to play louder in 00:18 and 00:26

http://youtu.be/i6C-4dyEQfQ
(Lovecats RAH 2011)


And in this video Robert can't hear Jason (or is it that he is telling his drummer what to play?) and asks for more volume:

http://youtu.be/WcoKxvfQl3c
(Prayers for rain Charlotte 2008)

[Matti]

I can't imagine that in the second video Robert can't hear Jason - he's standing right in front of the drum set. No idea what this gesturing means, perhaps it's just "Yeah, play it like that - like you did in the rehearsal."

I have no doubts about the Lovecats clip, though. In this case, You are totally wrong. Robert isn't asking anything from Jason. He is telling the guy responsible for the on stage sound to raise the drums volume on his monitors, as the rhythm section is really important in a song with a lot of swing in it. This, btw, is common behaviour for a lot of bands while they play live - interacting with their roadies to get the sound right. If Robert told Jason to play louder, that would cause a lot of trouble around the PA desk.

[Ulrich]

He is telling the guy responsible for the on stage sound to raise the drums volume on his monitors, as the rhythm section is really important in a song with a lot of swing in it. This, btw, is common behaviour for a lot of bands while they play live - interacting with their roadies to get the sound right.

You hit the nail on the head here. Anyone can see the same thing happen in older Cure videos (with or without Jason)!
On stage, hardly anybody would tell a drummer to play louder when they're hearing the drums over the monitors...

Well I guess, sadly, such assumptions are what happens when you view yt-vids only with one single thing (drums) in mind. "Obsessive", as someone already pointed out.  :roll:

[patitodark]

He is telling the guy responsible for the on stage sound to raise the drums volume on his monitors, as the rhythm section is really important in a song with a lot of swing in it. This, btw, is common behaviour for a lot of bands while they play live - interacting with their roadies to get the sound right.

You hit the nail on the head here. Anyone can see the same thing happen in older Cure videos (with or without Jason)!

Please show me an older video where Robert complains about his drummer's (Lol, Andy or Boris) sound or sound level on stage, please as I've watched lots and lots of videos and never stumble upon one of those. Of course I haven't seen all of the video bootlegs around, so that would be new to me.

On stage, hardly anybody would tell a drummer to play louder when they're hearing the drums over the monitors...

You've made me remind that back in 1992, I purchased a Guitar Player or Guitar World magazine where Robert was interviewed and he revealed that the sound level on stage was dictated by the volume of the acoustic drumset (mic'd of course!).
So, back in the golden years, the drums were first volume-wise and then the other instruments' levels were adjusted.

But nowadays it doesn't happen, as we all know that Jason's drums are kinda buried in the mix (studio and live) and all we can hear are his famous tiny cardboard box drum sound. On top of that let's add that Jason is not a natural hard hitting drummer and even on top of that, he plays less deeper drums than Boris or Andy.

With these facts, it's understandable that Robert can request the sound tech or the drummer, to rise their levels.

Well I guess, sadly, such assumptions are what happens when you view yt-vids only with one single thing (drums) in mind. "Obsessive", as someone already pointed out.  :roll:

But it happens too that when you just watch yt videos just staring at Robert's face and just hearing his voice, you don't notice anything else. And most of the time those missed things can spice up your overall fan experience too.

[Ulrich]

interacting with their roadies to get the sound right.

Please show me an older video where Robert complains about his drummer's

Please re-read the post by Matti I've replied to. I wasn't talking about drummers at all...
You obviously watch enough videos to find one yourself in which Robert (or other musicians) wave (or point or nod) at their sound (wo)men to fix something...

You've made me remind that back in 1992, I purchased a Guitar Player or Guitar World magazine where Robert was interviewed and he revealed that the sound level on stage was dictated by the volume of the acoustic drumset (mic'd of course!).

I made you remind. Aha.
Yes, drums are pretty loud (depending on the room etc), so yes the sound level onstage will be dictated by them. Always been like this, you do know a little bit about music, don't you? I knew this and wouldn't need a Robert interview to learn about this. Go out a bit and watch bands play, then you'll know how things work.

Please bear in mind that the sound outside (audience) is always different to the sound for the musicians (on stage). Which is why bands often have two people mixing the sound (one for the PA, one for the monitors on stage)!

With these facts, it's understandable that Robert can request the sound tech or the drummer, to rise their levels.

Pure speculation, we don't know exactly what Robert requested there.

[Matti]

(...) back in 1992, I purchased a Guitar Player or Guitar World magazine where Robert was interviewed and he revealed that the sound level on stage was dictated by the volume of the acoustic drumset (mic'd of course!).

You mean this one, right? "The Cure's stage volume has always been based on the acoustic volume of the drum kit."

[dsanchez]

So the beautiful "Cut Here" is played for the first time in twelve years and cymbals are added to the intro...

The Cure - Cut Here

"Cut Here" in Denver

https://vimeo.com/106743643

[dmscheuer]

The cymbals/toms in the beginning of songs are entirely because of the use of backing tracks. For some reason Robert decided he wanted to use backing tracks over the last dunno how many years for the live shows.

Jason has a click count-off in his monitors, he then counts the band in and plays during usually drum-free intros and middles of songs to keep the rest of the crew in sync with the backing tracks. It's unfortunate because it means every performance is cookie-cutter, it allows for no spontaneity or creativity.

But I don't know that we can pin this on Jason 

[dsanchez]

The cymbals/toms in the beginning of songs are entirely because of the use of backing tracks. For some reason Robert decided he wanted to use backing tracks over the last dunno how many years for the live shows.

hmmm maybe I am missing something but I don't hear any backing tracks here

THE CURE - secrets - London - Reflections / seventeen seconds - 15.11.2011

however, cymbals are added at the beginning of the song. and don't get my wrong, aside of that I like Jason's drumming on this particular song.

[dmscheuer]

Well, maybe it's just for consistancy? There may not be backing tracks on some songs, but there is no doubt Jason is playing along to a click track, which is why he 'needs' to play during what are traditionally non-drum parts of songs - to keep the rest of the band in sync.

This may have nearly alway been the case since BF was done with drum loops ( sometimes with, sometimes without acoustic drums). But I ask you to show me the same song played any differently over the last (?) 15 years... but I don't think there has been one 'A Forest' 1992 type song since Jason has been playing the drums. At least not captured on video, and that says a lot since the advances in smart phones making recording live performances much much easier.


Every single performance is note for note the same. And again - this is NOT a dig on Jason. I'm 99.99% sure he does not call the shots whether the songs should be played to a click track or they shouldn't. I guess we are moving beyond the 'Jason' issue and further into the issue as to why RS decided to 'call it in' on these festival shows.

However, back to the Jason question - as a person who has played the drums for 36 years, I still don't "understand" and cannot "explain" what Jason plays during many recordings. The fills, in laymans terms, do not make sense.

With live performances, he has an obnoxious love affair with hitting crash cymbals where it is not appropriate. His interpretations of his predecessors patterns are poor. And these drum patterns have a big part of what made these songs loveable. 

I used to argue that perhaps it was the songwriting that was suffering, and the drum parts were secondary. However there are certain 'recent' songs that are stand out. Underneath The Stars, Anniversary. The Scream, A Perfect Blue Sky (yes this was just an RS vocal as opposed to a 'The Cure' recording, but it shows he is still capable of writing amazing songs) ... I only wonder what a certain other drummer might have played on some of those, as well as others....

*and yes I know that UTS was and expounded Uyea Sound - Jason even copped [redacted]'s original drum pattern.

Edit - I have been playing drums for 36 years, not 26

[cheyler]

On the Charlotte video RS is adjusting the tempo very slightly.  Jason would have control of the click track.  It happens a LOT during Pictures Of You even now.  That song is fairly delicate, some songs are like that, the tempo has to be spot-on or it's just a chore to play it.  Frank Zappa used to criticize drummers by suggesting they'd spent too long in the 'Petrified Forest of Boom-Boom-Bap'.  Funny.  Not implying anything about Jason there.  I like him just fine.  (but would still like to sink that crash cymbal down the Marianas Trench)

[Josefyne]

Every single performance is note for note the same. And again - this is NOT a dig on Jason. I'm 99.99% sure he does not call the shots whether the songs should be played to a click track or they shouldn't. I guess we are moving beyond the 'Jason' issue and further into the issue as to why RS decided to 'call it in' on these festival shows.

Sorry but to me it's indeed Jason's fault. As a pro musician ( and I guess he listens back to his performances) he must notice that many of the things he plays is totally WRONG! and he must make the necessary adjustments! ( like not overplaying the cymbals, playing the right drum patterns and specially the bass drum, not playing the SAME fu..king dah---dah-dah-bum fill in every fu...king song!

As most of us know by now, Jason has performed in studio for the last Marina and the Diamonds' album. So that lead me to think that

1) In his mind he is doing a great job with The Cure so he doesn't need to improve his playing with the band.

2) Definitely Jason threw in the towel and realized that he can't reach the musicianship level of Boris, Andy or even Lol ( who played with more vibe and passion than him ) and decided to look for side projects.

However, back to the Jason question - as a person who has played the drums for 36 years, I still don't "understand" and cannot "explain" what Jason plays during many recordings. The fills, in laymans terms, do not make sense.
With live performances, he has an obnoxious love affair with hitting crash cymbals where it is not appropriate. His interpretations of his predecessors patterns are poor. And these drum patterns have a big part of what made these songs loveable.

The way Jason plays (tempo & feel) on those important and distinctive parts of a song are 99.9% of the time performed like only an amateur or a guy who didn't hear the song before, would play!

The Cure with Jason on the drum chair is a sad ending for a once great band.

[dsanchez]

2) Definitely Jason threw in the towel and realized that he can't reach the musicianship level of Boris, Andy or even Lol ( who played with more vibe and passion than him ) and decided to look for side projects

I have to disagree in part with this. I think Jason is better musician than Lol. I do think, however, that he is lacking of the passion expected in a drummer (or any other musician). I think this is the main problem (I wish I wouldn't write this because at the same time I think he is currently the most sympathetic Cure member, together with Reeves)

Anyway, as I said in another topic, I went to London to see The Cure but the two nights before I saw Slowdive and I saw how great his drummer (Simon Scott) was. He is probably one of the reasons why the band sounds so great live. He took a Slowdive song, "Golden Hair", to another level making it sound way more powerful than the original version, and you could see in his facial expression how he enjoyed what he was doing (see a video here). Sometimes I have the impression that Jason seems stressed/nervous.

Having said this, I don't see Jason leaving the band on his own, unless Robert would fire him (as he did a few years ago with Roger and Perry).  And I don't think this is going to happen.

[Josefyne]

Hi Dsanchez and thank you for the welcome in the other thread!

2) Definitely Jason threw in the towel and realized that he can't reach the musicianship level of Boris, Andy or even Lol ( who played with more vibe and passion than him ) and decided to look for side projects

I have to disagree in part with this. I think Jason is better musician than Lol. I do think, however, that he is lacking of the passion expected in a drummer (or any other musician). I think this is the main problem (I wish I wouldn't write this because at the same time I think he is currently the most sympathetic Cure member, together with Reeves)

Lol rocks playing All cats are grey in live. Also Primary ,Play for Today (Jason still can't get the flow of this song and throws some of the most disgusting drum fills in) and most -not all- of the songs from his era. On the other hand, yes... Jason can keep up with the metronome in his ears and play more "in the pocket" -maybe- but fails whenever he plays drum fills or cymbals! (that means, whenever he tries to do his thing). His 'contribution' in that regard is 99% of the time disgusting, out of place and out of musical style.

So if we compare musicianship, skills, commitment, attitude, overplaying, timing, musical taste, use of backing tracks, mistakes in live, live & studio sound, stamina, speed, passion, vibe, at the end -to me- the winner is... Lawrence Tolhurst.

Anyway, as I said in another topic, I went to London to see The Cure but the two nights before I saw Slowdive and I saw how great his drummer (Simon Scott) was. He is probably one of the reasons why the band sounds so great live. He took a Slowdive song, "Golden Hair", to another level making it sound way more powerful than the original version, and you could see in his facial expression how he enjoyed what he was doing (see a video here). Sometimes I have the impression that Jason looks stressed/nervous.

Wow, thanks for the video. Wonderful performance.

Having said this, I don't see Jason leaving the band on his own, unless Robert would fire him (as he did a few years ago with Roger and Perry).  And I don't think this is going to happen.

Unfortunately and sadly...

Let's pray he stays with Marina, forever.

[Ulrich]

As most of us know by now, Jason has performed in studio for the last Marina and the Diamonds' album. So that lead me to think that

1) In his mind he is doing a great job with The Cure so he doesn't need to improve his playing with the band.

2) Definitely Jason threw in the towel and realized that he can't reach the musicianship level of Boris, Andy or even Lol ( who played with more vibe and passion than him ) and decided to look for side projects.

1) Maybe he does, but this has nothing to do with him performing on the Marina & the Diamonds' album! The latter has more to do with Marina & the Diamonds thinking that his drumming would fit for their album...

2) Probably not. Many musicians in bands do "side projects". (Reeves has many projects of his own and collaborations, as has Roger!)
For me, it's what mucisians do: making music. No matter what, when or with whom. Music is what it should be about for them.
The Cure should do a bit more in the recording studio, maybe then those members wouldn't have time for many side projects...  :roll:

He took a Slowdive song, "Golden Hair", to another level making it sound way more powerful than the original version

Tut tut, that is a Syd Barrett (founder of Pink Floyd) song, only covered by Slowdive.

Having said this, I don't see Jason leaving the band on his own, unless Robert would fire him (as he did a few years ago with Roger and Perry).  And I don't think this is going to happen.

You never know. When anything like that happened (e.g. Porl & Boris leaving, Roger & Perry sacked) in the past, it always was totally unexpected to me.