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The Cure => General The Cure Discussion => Topic started by: DrumStudy on August 08, 2008, 05:16:32

Poll
Question: Who is your favourite The Cure drummer?
Option 1: Jason Cooper votes: 162
Option 2: Boris Williams votes: 406
Option 3: Andy Anderson votes: 27
Option 4: Lol Tolhurst votes: 42
Title: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: DrumStudy on August 08, 2008, 05:16:32
Lot of people complains about Jason drumming. For hardcore fans, he will always be the "NEW" drummer and kind of a "special guest" of the band.

Never before a band member's been so unpopular. Never before a band member's style didn't match with The Cure.

Some guys say that a good indicator of a bad drummer for The Cure, is when the guy uses a pre-recorded track for 100 years (Lol used it and so Jason).

Well, for you all, my serious study of Jason drumming. Probably I will be releasing a couple more in the long term. If you liked it, then subscribe to my videos.

I won't answer to your messages. Sorry. I've done it because I don't have the chance to talk to Robert and tell him what the real fans think about his drummer. And better yet, what is wrong with him. Why his style doesn't fit The Cure and such.

BTW, the music and the "study" begins at 00:23 but read/watch it all!

HERE IS THE LINK TO THE VIDEO. THANKS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LuXyX-KtVU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LuXyX-KtVU)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: japanesebaby on August 08, 2008, 10:48:24
wonderful - i mean, awful. :P

you know in a mordib way this really cheers me up on a day that i learned that old bob is collaborating with jared leto, fall out boy & the rest. it reminds me that the downfall of the band started well over ten years ago anyway.
soundtrack for today: 'funeral party'...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: lostflower4 on August 08, 2008, 11:53:51
Oh man, that's just way too funny.

But all too truew. I'm glad someone finally made some sort of evidence/comparisons, because a lot of people obviously don't notice the difference between Jason, Boris, and the drummers before that (all who were better than Jason).

Yes, I think even Lol played with more passion and grace that Jason.

Good job, and thanks for the laugh.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Janko on August 08, 2008, 15:31:05
Well, no doubt this is funny to watch...

But accusing Jason for the bad state and lousy form the band is in - is a load of BS! Its solely Robert who's to blame, Jason is just a tiny bit more than a session drummer and he has absolutely "no say" in creating music...

1) If the Robert's songs were good - no one would dare to point out Jason's drumming!

and


2) It's Robert who compromised The Cure's status in recent years! There's no drummer so great that could save the band from the ditch they're in!

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: revolt on August 08, 2008, 15:52:20
Quote from: Janko on August 08, 2008, 15:31:05
Well, no doubt this is funny to watch...

But accusing Jason for the bad state and lousy form the band is in - is a load of BS! Its solely Robert who's to blame, Jason is just a tiny bit more than a session drummer and he has absolutely "no say" in creating music...

1) If the Robert's songs were good - no one would dare to point out Jason's drumming!

and


2) It's Robert who compromised The Cure's status in recent years! There's no drummer so great that could save the band from the ditch they're in!



I kind of agree with you here. Jason might have his problems in the drumming department, but blaming him for the mistakes in the Cure's carer in recent years is unfair... Even though he sometimes gets to write a song or two: that 'Never' thing from the self-titled album is from him, I think...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: japanesebaby on August 08, 2008, 16:41:08
Quote from: Janko on August 08, 2008, 15:31:05
1) If the Robert's songs were good - no one would dare to point out Jason's drumming!

i have to disagree with some of this. i think the new songs wouldn't be all so bad if the production/remastering just wasn't so utterly horrible. it's simply annoying to listen to any of the new stuff because the production literally (i really mean literally, and not metaphorically) gives you a headache within 10 seconds so you sort of miss the opportunity to try and focus on the songs itself, to even decide if they are good or bad. and that really annoys me most.
and even if the production was ok, i 'm afraid i would still be just as much annoyed by jason's drumming (so yes, i would dare to point it out!). his playing is full of such tiring mannerism that it's almost impossible not to pay attention to it. he is a "mechanical musician" imo, lacks creativity. 

i don't think nobody here accuses jason ALONE for the state of current affairs. but he's one piece in the puzzle and a rather big piece. robert surely is to blame for a lot of silly things recently, up to the point that i feel no urge to defend him at all here. but it's not fair to blame everything on him either: if jason simply took some drumming lessons and learned to do his job better, it wouldn't actually hurt(!).
robert can't drum for him... 
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: revolt on August 08, 2008, 16:48:55
Quote from: japanesebaby on August 08, 2008, 16:41:08

robert can't drum for him... 

Actually, I think he can... At least, he is supposed to have helped Tolhurst sometime when Lol was having some trouble in getting it right...  ;)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Cure Freak on August 08, 2008, 17:52:52
Quote from: revolt on August 08, 2008, 15:52:20
Quote from: Janko on August 08, 2008, 15:31:05
Well, no doubt this is funny to watch...

But accusing Jason for the bad state and lousy form the band is in - is a load of BS! Its solely Robert who's to blame, Jason is just a tiny bit more than a session drummer and he has absolutely "no say" in creating music...

1) If the Robert's songs were good - no one would dare to point out Jason's drumming!

and


2) It's Robert who compromised The Cure's status in recent years! There's no drummer so great that could save the band from the ditch they're in!



I kind of agree with you here. Jason might have his problems in the drumming department, but blaming him for the mistakes in the Cure's carer in recent years is unfair... Even though he sometimes gets to write a song or two: that 'Never' thing from the self-titled album is from him, I think...

And I have to agree with you,both.
To soley put the blame on one musician for the band's mistakes, is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: japanesebaby on August 08, 2008, 17:58:20
Quote from: Cure Freak on August 08, 2008, 17:52:52
To soley put the blame on one musician for the band's mistakes, is ridiculous.

well i think you guys might get it a bit wrong(?).
i don't think saying "this is one of the big problems with the cure today" is the same as saying "the cure sucks because of this guy and this guy alone".
there's a difference there...
the video simply points out what's wrong with jason's drumming, as far as i understand it's not intended to point out THE one and only problem with the band (because unfortunately, there are more than this one).
now people want to defend jason by saying "hey but he's not responsible for everything!" - of course he isn't. but that doesn't mean his drumming isn't without problems either.

 
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on August 09, 2008, 05:14:08
WOW! Excellent job. It must be the first time someone points exactly what is wrong with Jason.

I believe this new album has better songs than WMS, Bloodflowers and The Cure, mainly because Porl is by far a better guitarist than Perry (who is great playing keyboard parts that other past member have done!) and enhances the songs, but there is a big problem with the mix of the songs and a big problem with Jason drumming of course.

All that´s been said in the video it´s truth about the "Jason Style" but the guy forgot to play the cymbals during the intro in Lullaby Wink because this is exactly what Jason does in ALL OF THE SONGS that don´t have drums! Have you noticed that nowadays in all the songs -new and past- the drums never stop? If it´s not the real drums, it´s that click track or some electronic pre-recorded parts behind the song! ANNOYING really.

I understand that when the first complains about Jason began back in 1996, Robert -as a good human being I think he is- wanted to backup him, give him confidence in himself by keeping him in the drumchair, but enough is enough! Robert must look for another drummer now, a real one if Boris can´t play anymore as I´ve heard he has some health problems and I´ve also noticed that he has some problems with one or both of his eyes. Just watch photos and posters from 1992 and in some of them you will notice his eyes are kind of inflamed, then he began using sunglasses. Also watch the acoustic sessions for Greatest Hits, where Boris seems has lost one eye! Do you know something about this?

The Cure is still a good band and of course I will buy their new album hoping for a song as touching as Pictures of you, or Catch or Last dance to name a few...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: lostflower4 on August 09, 2008, 05:35:59
Quote from: patitodark on August 09, 2008, 05:14:08All that´s been said in the video it´s truth about the "Jason Style" but the guy forgot to play the cymbals during the intro in Lullaby Wink because this is exactly what Jason does in ALL OF THE SONGS that don´t have drums! Have you noticed that nowadays in all the songs -new and past- the drums never stop? If it´s not the real drums, it´s that click track or some electronic pre-recorded parts behind the song! ANNOYING really.

Yes - and it's EVERY single song, even the ones that shouldn't have percussion during the beginning. It totally kills the dynamic of everything. I think this just proves that Jason is basically a drum machine inside a human body.

But to everyone else:  I don't recall saying that Jason is responsible for current state of The Cure today.

Aside from the bad production on the recent official releases, which is tragic, I actually like most of the new material. Thanks goodness for the live stuff!

The point of the matter is that Jason will always be the wink link in the chain, as his level of musicianship is nowhere near anyone else in the band - and that has always been the case since the day he joined.

I used to see Perry as the other weak link when he took over Porl's live duties, but fortunately this is no longer an issue - so I won't dwell on it.

Please note that I'm NOT saying Jason is a weak songwriter. I never implied this. I'm simply talking about the ability to play instruments. Robert and Porl are amazing guitarists, each in their own way, and Simon is a rock-solid bass player. Jason is, well...

No matter how great or how bad The Cure's songs are (which is all a matter of opinion), there will always be that substandard, mediocre, and sometimes plain bad drumming to go along with it.

I think DrumStudy really proved it, because Jason can't even keep the beat half the time (which is a matter of mathematics, not of personal taste).

"Of course, all errors and displaced beats are there for one purpose: To play like Jason."

:lol:

Maybe I shouldn't be laughing, but after 14 years I think it helps to have a sense of humor about it.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on August 09, 2008, 07:54:39
This is part of an extense interview to Boris Williams in 1990, that I´ve typed for you because I think it will -maybe- enhance this debate:

Boris Williams might be all but hidden at Cure concerts due to the band´s ever-present smoke machines, but his presence live and on record during the past five years has been considerably felt nonetheless.
Boris´s first album with The Cure, The Head on the door (recorded in 1985), was a turning point for the band. The album provided them with their first hit in America, "In between days", and started a string of increasingly sophisticated, creative, and popular records, including 1987`s Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me and last year`s Disintegration. Their last tour of America saw the band headlining stadium and arena shows across the country, a somewhat ironic turn of events, since Disintegration features the most somber and "non-pop" collection of songs the grupo has recorded since 1982´s Pornography.

Though Boris describes himself as not being a very technical player, that description is a bit misleading. All he means is that he never displays his chops as a means to an end. That kind of playing wouldn´t work in The Cure anyway. What is apparent from his recordings is that he is very adept at coming up with the right percussion part for the song.Boris´s background playing fusion bands in London clubs has provided him with the facility to play the parts he thinks up; one never gets the impression he´s playing the part because that´s all he can play. Every part has a meaning; every part is played that way for a reason.

If we flash back a little farther into Williams´s career we´ll see him gigging around London with fusion bands -a far cry from groups like the Thompson Twins, or specially The Cure, whom Robert Smith still speaks about in the terms of the punk movement. "That was a long time ago", Williams admits. "I actually had a group with Roger O´Donnell, who´s playing keyboards with us now in The Cure. We did a lot of pubgigs and stuff like that. He was into Herbie Hancock, and I really liked Weather Report. I went down that road for a while, but I got fed up with it. I decided I didn´t want to just work on my technique all the time. I´m lazy anyway [laughs] But I decided you can just carry on doing that type of thing. I mean, a lot of drummers really concerned with technique feel they need to sort of use it up in the context of the group or whatever gig they´re doing. And I think most of the time it gets in the way. I´d rather play something that fits in with the meaning of the song. Though I really used to like the Mahavishnu Orchestra. And I still enjoy listening to Weather Report; they´re a brilliant group and they´ve done some good albums that stand out. But most of that kind of music ended up sounding completely bland to me."

"One day I was listening to Steve Gadd or some other drummer who I really liked and then I stopped listening to the drums and started listening to the music, and I thought, ´This is absolute shit!´ It was like ´I might as well be in an elevator´. As a listener, you only get involved in the technique and saying ´Oh, he´s brilliant´. You actually lose touch with the fact that it´s supposed to be something that is trying to communicate with people".

Anyone familiar with either the Thompson Twins or The Cure might wonder if and how Boris´s fusion chops would eventually play a part in his playing with either of those groups. "I suppose most of the time I´m playing underneath my technique", Williams ponders. "It´s not that I think everybody should; I do think it´s good to stretch yourself. The only time I really stretch myself is if we´re doing a soundcheck. But I am glad I played that sort of music, because it´s all come in handy. Everthing you learn is a bonus, even if you don´t actually use it directly".

"The Thompson Twins´ attitude in a sense was so completely opposite to mine. I mean, they cheated, if you like, so much," he laughs, "by using sequencers and drum machines on stage. I used a click track because I used a hell of a lot of tapes on stage. That was a really good discipline for me in a way, though.
"The worst time, we were playing in London, and it was right at the end, during "Hold me now", which was a big single then. So it was at the peak of the show, and the tape started slowing down more and more and more; and of course everything that we were actually playing -the actual live parts- were completely out of tune with what was on tape, and I was thinking, ´Please turn the tape machine off´. They did eventually".

The interview continues with Boris talking about how he joined The Cure, how Porl asked him to play with them his first show, his drum setup, how Disintegration was recorded, anecdotes, etc. and a study of Boris drumming in Close to me, Last Dance and Fascination Street.

I´ve read opinions of young fans who say that Jason has better technique than Boris, but all I´d like to say is that if what Jason has is called "good technique" then The Cure doesn´t need it! and thanks to the interviewer and by Boris´s words we can understand why he came up with such wonderful drum patterns for all of us to enjoy  :smth023

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on August 09, 2008, 19:14:43
Boris was the best Cure drummer. He's a highly skilled musician, in my opinion.

However, I wouldn't say Jason is bad, but I would just be happy if the old Cure songs were played like before. I don't know who had the "great" idea to add sequences to Push, for instance, but it might be Jason's idea? Also, have anyone noticed the beginning of "Boys don't cry"? If you let the drums alone, I wouldn't know that the 2008 version of Boys don't cry is indeed Boys don't cry (see attached for a comparison between the 1992 version and the strange 2008 version) :?

(2008 sample is from jb's recording)

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on August 09, 2008, 19:52:39
Quote from: dsanchez on August 09, 2008, 19:14:43
Boris have been the best Cure drummer. He's a highly skilled musician, indeed.

I wouldn't say Jason is bad. I'm not a musician myself. But I would just be happy if the old Cure songs were played like always. I don't know who had the "great" idea to add sequences to Push, but it may be Jason's idea? Also, have anyone noticed the beginning of "Boys don't cry"? If you let the drumms alone, I wouldn't know that the 2008 version of Boys don't cry is indeed Boys don't cry (see attach for a comparison between 1992 version and the strange 2008 version) :?

(2008 sample is from jb's recording)

Hahaha! Jason´s version of BDC sounds EXACTLY as DrumStudy says is the "Jason Style"! EXACTLY THE SAME! Incredible!  :D   :smth023
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: japanesebaby on August 10, 2008, 11:32:09
Quote from: patitodark on August 09, 2008, 19:52:39
Quote from: dsanchez on August 09, 2008, 19:14:43
Boris have been the best Cure drummer. He's a highly skilled musician, indeed.

I wouldn't say Jason is bad. I'm not a musician myself. But I would just be happy if the old Cure songs were played like always. I don't know who had the "great" idea to add sequences to Push, but it may be Jason's idea? Also, have anyone noticed the beginning of "Boys don't cry"? If you let the drumms alone, I wouldn't know that the 2008 version of Boys don't cry is indeed Boys don't cry (see attach for a comparison between 1992 version and the strange 2008 version) :?

(2008 sample is from jb's recording)


Hahaha! Jason´s version of BDC sounds EXACTLY as DrumStudy says is the "Jason Style"! EXACTLY THE SAME! Incredible!  :D   :smth023


yeah it's incredible indeed. i'd kind of want to roll with laughter too - unless it was so tragic.

@patitodark:
thanks for the interview with boris. good reading and not so easy to find interviews with him. where was this interviewprinted+ (i wonder if you would be able to scan the complete article, perhaps?)
by the way i sometimes noticed the eye thing too, that his eyes looked watery/red-ish. but i never even got to think it might have had something to do with his health or his departure.  too bad if that's really true, that he's been having some health issues.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: japanesebaby on August 10, 2008, 11:40:44
sorry if i veer off but just trying to find some humorous aspects in this.
the cowbell part in 'lullaby' got me rolling, also reminded me about this classic piece of "cowbell solos".
now, all you have to do is to imagine the cure playing 'lullaby' instead of BOC and will ferrell playing jason:  :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhSkRHXTKlw


"i've got a fever, and the only prescrption (or, should i say the cure ;)) is more cowbell!"

:smth043
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on August 10, 2008, 20:34:17
Quote from: japanesebaby on August 10, 2008, 11:32:09
Quote from: patitodark on August 09, 2008, 19:52:39
Quote from: dsanchez on August 09, 2008, 19:14:43
Boris have been the best Cure drummer. He's a highly skilled musician, indeed.

I wouldn't say Jason is bad. I'm not a musician myself. But I would just be happy if the old Cure songs were played like always. I don't know who had the "great" idea to add sequences to Push, but it may be Jason's idea? Also, have anyone noticed the beginning of "Boys don't cry"? If you let the drumms alone, I wouldn't know that the 2008 version of Boys don't cry is indeed Boys don't cry (see attach for a comparison between 1992 version and the strange 2008 version) :?

(2008 sample is from jb's recording)


Hahaha! Jason´s version of BDC sounds EXACTLY as DrumStudy says is the "Jason Style"! EXACTLY THE SAME! Incredible!  :D   :smth023


yeah it's incredible indeed. i'd kind of want to roll with laughter too - unless it was so tragic.

@patitodark:
thanks for the interview with boris. good reading and not so easy to find interviews with him. where was this interviewprinted+ (i wonder if you would be able to scan the complete article, perhaps?)
by the way i sometimes noticed the eye thing too, that his eyes looked watery/red-ish. but i never even got to think it might have had something to do with his health or his departure.  too bad if that's really true, that he's been having some health issues.

Hi Japanesebaby. About the interview: Boris was interviewed by Modern Drummer magazine in 1990 and most of it can be read here:

http://www.picturesofyou.us/90/boris-interview.htm
(Thanks to the people at picturesofyou.com!)

The Cowbell video was extremely funny! thanks!  :lol:  It seems that that phrase is very popular as I´ve found many parodies about it. I really hate that sound and Jason doesn´t even bother to play it live! Who recommended it? Bruce Dickinson?  :-D

Regarding Boris´s health issue, have you seen the Greatest Hits video where he appears playing percussions while Jason plays the drums? that´s when/where I noticed the issue with one of his eyes.


***Robert keeps Jason on a whim because he doesn´t want to accept that hiring him was a bad decision.***
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Bloodflower on August 11, 2008, 06:12:30
This might be the most mean-spirited thread I've seen here -- in a while, at least.

Jason is THE Cure drummer; you might prefer Boris, but his first recording was in 1985, his last in 1993. That's eight years, and they were a great eight years, but they're gone now. Jason's first recording was released in 1995, his latest in 2008.

13 > 8. Jason is THE Cure drummer. Yay maths....
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on August 11, 2008, 06:58:32
Quote from: Bloodflower on August 11, 2008, 06:12:30
This might be the most mean-spirited thread I've seen here -- in a while, at least.

Jason is THE Cure drummer; you might prefer Boris, but his first recording was in 1985, his last in 1993. That's eight years, and they were a great eight years, but they're gone now. Jason's first recording was released in 1995, his latest in 2008.

13 > 8. Jason is THE Cure drummer. Yay maths....

Hi Bloodflower. Just to clarify that my critics to Jason are targeted to his musical style and contribution to the band, which I think is null. I have nothing against him as a person. I know of many fans that hate him because he is blond and hate his Californian look. I don't.

And I don't see the relation between the amount of years a band member is in The Cure with the quality of his contribution to the band. Lol was 11 years...

Talking about maths and numbers...
During the 8 years Boris was in, the band released 4 masterpieces. Robert was so excited about the great level The Cure reached that released 4 studio albums, and live albums, and great videos too (Orange, Picture Show, Show, etc.)

During the 'Jason-era' -13 years- the band's released just 3 studio albums up to date and a couple of videos.

Anyway, I want to stress that I dont' criticize him because of how he looks but for what he brings to the band.

P.S. I've just heard The Perfect Boy completely and Jason plays EXACTLY as DrumStudy "parodies" him: same beats in the drums, etc. Doesn't it mean something for goodness sake?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Bloodflower on August 11, 2008, 10:25:13
Quote from: patitodark on August 11, 2008, 06:58:32

Hi Bloodflower. Just to clarify that my critics to Jason are targeted to his musical style and contribution to the band, which I think is null. I have nothing against him as a person. I know of many fans that hate him because he is blond and hate his Californian look. I don't.

Anyway, I want to stress that I don't criticize him because of how he looks but for what he brings to the band.


Which is good and fine -- I don't think anyone but Robert [and then, probably only ostensibly] contests that Boris is the most talented drummer The Cure ever had. It just feels like this thread is less about criticism than mockery. It seems mean-spirited. And I guess that just doesn't sit well with me.

HOWEVER!

Carry on....
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: japanesebaby on August 11, 2008, 12:40:32
Quote from: Bloodflower on August 11, 2008, 06:12:30
This might be the most mean-spirited thread I've seen here -- in a while, at least.

maybe i see things differently because i'm a musician myself. but i don't think it's mean-spirited. people seem to think it's about laughing to jason cooper the person - it's not. nobody's lauhging at his personality, him as a human being or something. it's just an analysis of his style.
(i have a feeling that people confuse the two also elsewhere on this forum recently...)

when youre' a musician (or other kind of performing artist) you put yourself out there as an artist. it's totally normal in the world of musicians to pay attention to this sort of things, even sarcastically. if people lose their nerve about getting bashed a bit like this, then they might just have a poor sense of humour. of course there's a limit, after which the thing goes over the top... but as long as it's based on facts (like here) then there're grounds for it. now, i'm NOT saying it's perfectly ok to laugh at people or something. if someone made a similar video where he/she paid attention to how jason looks like and made fun of that, then that would be mean-spirited. but to analyze his playing style is not analyzing his personality. two different things.
the video here grew out of frustration of some artists mannerism. what's so wrong in pointing it out? (hey you should here how musicians talk about each other, on a regular basis.... and not just enemies, even when they respect each other(!) ;))

just my opinion, of course.   


by the way, i've sometimes thought about making a youtube video by collecting together all the various places in the live shows where robert screws up a guitar solo/a riff. have you ever noticed how when he screws up, he has the tendency to try and "fake" it was an intentional improvisation? once you notice it it's actually really annoying.*)
so even though robert is one of the best guitarists i know i would not think i was mean-spirited if i made such a video/collection. it wouldn't be my intention to make everyone point and laugh at him, just to make people to pay attention into something. yet i'm sure if i made the video there would be a lot of people saying i'm being mean and evil. hmm?

*) i think i originally started paying attention to it because lol pointed it out somewhere during the famous court cases lol vs. the cure. and lol was just absolutely right in that, i think!
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Cure Freak on August 11, 2008, 13:47:04
Quote from: japanesebaby on August 08, 2008, 17:58:20
Quote from: Cure Freak on August 08, 2008, 17:52:52
To soley put the blame on one musician for the band's mistakes, is ridiculous.

well i think you guys might get it a bit wrong(?).
i don't think saying "this is one of the big problems with the cure today" is the same as saying "the cure sucks because of this guy and this guy alone".
there's a difference there...
the video simply points out what's wrong with jason's drumming, as far as i understand it's not intended to point out THE one and only problem with the band (because unfortunately, there are more than this one).
now people want to defend jason by saying "hey but he's not responsible for everything!" - of course he isn't. but that doesn't mean his drumming isn't without problems either.

 
You are still targeting one musican, instead of the whole.
Jason only represents a small part.And,of course, he has made mistakes. But, they the rest of the band has to. And I can understand the criticsizing of his playing. Being an arttist, I deeply accept, it. It helps me to improve and to do better. But, will Jason ever see this video?  And why not do the same for the other members.

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on August 11, 2008, 18:18:54
Of course any member can make mistakes but the main thing with Jason aren't his mistakes but his way of playing the drums, where his fills and arrangements are ALWAYS THE SAME for each song he plays in! he makes new and old songs sound the same and I hate how he can make the good things Boris made, disappear. Good example of this are Push with the annoying electronic sounds which kills the feeling of the song, same thing with Prayers for Rain, Lullaby, Open (with lots of cymbals in the intro part), Strange day which he's turned almost into a disco beat!, and many many others. Dsanchez gave a great example of Jason's repetitive style too.

In conclusion, I believe his mistakes are not the point here but his boring repetitive drum fills and arrangements for the songs...

About making a video with Robert's mistakes, that is a great idea! a very interesting one which fans will appreciate and will just make us appreciate Robert's charm and naivety in live :smth023
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: japanesebaby on August 11, 2008, 19:00:38
Quote from: Cure Freak on August 11, 2008, 13:47:04
You are still targeting one musican, instead of the whole.
Jason only represents a small part.And,of course, he has made mistakes. But, they the rest of the band has to. And I can understand the criticsizing of his playing. Being an arttist, I deeply accept, it. It helps me to improve and to do better. But, will Jason ever see this video?  And why not do the same for the other members.

i'm not sure what you mean i should not "target one person". because look, it's already been said that i (or anyone else here either) never said jason is the ONLY problem. he isn't. there are other things that i find problematic about the current line-up's sound, for instance robert's tendency to use nothing else than those dull-sounding shechter guitars.  but this thread is about jason so that kind of defines what i wrote about here. if the video was about "the cure - a study of their style", then it would be different.
i don't know why we should "target the whole" if i am able to point out at least one of the main problems more detailedly?

so why not do the same about other members? well, if there is any reason to be found, then why not. for instance, i could well imagine a similar video that would reveal how awful those shechter guitars sound like - that would be really easy to demonstrate, really! but much more difficult to make such a video about simon, though. for obvious reasons.
so it's not like "ok let's be fair and make similar video from all members then, if we make such from one member". because isn't it pretty clear that if all members only were completely and thoroughly at the top of their game then there would be no reason to make any videos form any of them, not even from jason, right?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: strange_day on August 13, 2008, 18:14:22
Yawn..... This topic never goes away.  :roll:

If anything that video just really annoyed me, its inaccurate, unfair and made by someone who clearly has waaayyy too much time on their hands.
I could argue it for hours and hours. I understand why people prefer Boris, thats easy, he was there in the 'good old days' and thats fair enough. But i get really sick of the black and white comparisons between the two, that one is perfect and the other always messes up - untrue. They both have different styles and thats what makes it interesting. Yes, Jason uses click tracks and samples, i dont see whats wrong with that, since nearly every drummer in a band that size plays to a click track live. I really like all the little samples of beats in there, it makes for a different version, more contemporary etc. Thats the reason they are there, not because the guy cant play. Look at Underneath The Stars, i think thats done really well.

But this isnt 1989 anymore, let it go, or get up there and do a better job yourself...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: japanesebaby on August 13, 2008, 21:46:32
Quote from: strange_day on August 13, 2008, 18:14:22
Yawn..... This topic never goes away.  :roll:

some other topics that never go away (whatever the cure forum you go to, any one of them):

'robert's hair'
'disintegration is great'
'WMS sucks'
'robert's shoes'
'simon is cool - and hot'
'we love trilogy!'
'robert's hair, part 2'
'porl sucks'
'porl rules'
'robert's lipstick'
'porl sucks (part II)'
'WMS sucks (again)'
'"the cure" sucks (of course)'
'robert & mary - sweeeeeethearts forever  :smth055'
'disintegraton is the best album ever made, really'
'keyboards vs. no keyboards'
'robert's hair, part3'
'more about keyboards vs. no keyboards'
'robert's... socks?'
'simon is hot'
'simon is cool'
'don't you think that 'it used to be me' should have been an album-track!'
'robert's shoes part 2'
'porl sucks - or rules? whatever'
'robert's hair part... 4000'
etc. etc.


i think i agree, i guess all of the cure boards are pretty boring. let's all take a biiig yawnnnnnnnn and go to sleep....  :smth015  :-D

(we should also stop sharing concerts because most of them have been shared a zillion times already so it's getting kind of repetitive, don't you think?
thus, another yawn....? ;))

my opinion: here on curefans anyone can write what they want to write, however "yawn-ish" the topic was.  :)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on August 13, 2008, 21:47:31
:smth044
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Cure Freak on August 13, 2008, 22:23:14
Quote from: strange_day on August 13, 2008, 18:14:22
Yawn..... This topic never goes away.  :roll:

If anything that video just really annoyed me, its inaccurate, unfair and made by someone who clearly has waaayyy too much time on their hands.
I could argue it for hours and hours. I understand why people prefer Boris, thats easy, he was there in the 'good old days' and thats fair enough. But i get really sick of the black and white comparisons between the two, that one is perfect and the other always messes up - untrue. They both have different styles and thats what makes it interesting. Yes, Jason uses click tracks and samples, i dont see whats wrong with that, since nearly every drummer in a band that size plays to a click track live. I really like all the little samples of beats in there, it makes for a different version, more contemporary etc. Thats the reason they are there, not because the guy cant play. Look at Underneath The Stars, i think thats done really well.

But this isnt 1989 anymore, let it go, or get up there and do a better job yourself...

I'm totally with you there. Especially the last sentence.
:smth023
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: strange_day on August 13, 2008, 22:51:06
Quote from: japanesebaby on August 13, 2008, 21:46:32
Quote from: strange_day on August 13, 2008, 18:14:22
Yawn..... This topic never goes away.  :roll:

i think i agree, i guess all of the cure boards are pretty boring. let's all take a biiig yawnnnnnnnn and go to sleep....  :smth015  :-D

(we should also stop sharing concerts because most of them have been shared a zillion times already so it's getting kind of repetitive, don't you think?
thus, another yawn....? ;))

my opinion: here on curefans anyone can write what they want to write, however "yawn-ish" the topic was.  :)

I knew id get severe bashing for that, oh well, i dont care, were all entitled to opinions like you say.

I dont think the boards are boring at all, or i wouldnt be here ;) Im very greatful for places like this, You know that anyway.... the yawn was care of the sanctimonius one way Jason-bashing that goes on.  :smth021

I still stand by what i say anyhow   :smth045 :smth023
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: japanesebaby on August 13, 2008, 23:34:16
Quote from: strange_day on August 13, 2008, 22:51:06
I knew id get severe bashing for that, oh well, i dont care, were all entitled to opinions like you say.
what bashing? :? seriously people, did we all somehow misplace our sense of humor lately or what? ;)
(by that i don't mean you have to find that video humorous or even like it - if you don't like it then that's fine, that's your response to it. i just mean let's not be so sensitive towards each other... ok? because my list of all those "other yawn-ish" things was supposed to be humorous, in a way...)

i don't think the boards are boring either. i just wanted to say that there are SO many things that people keep talking about (and on all cure forums, not just here!) over and over and over again... so many things that we can renounce with a "yawn" because they've been discussed a zillion times. but still, people keep talking about them - and there's nothing wrong with that.
i mean, you find jason bashing boring - fine. i find praising jason boring - fine.
but which one of these opinions is "less boring" or "more boring"?

please correct me if i'm wrong but i almost feel like you were already prepared to "get bashed" because for some reason you thought "on this forum you need to bash jason" or seomthing. i mean, what is all that? that's not at all what this place is about. we don't need to shout "WE think like this and we all agree here wow aren't we so cool! (+a smiley of your choice)" here. i'd be more than happy to leave all that to some other forums.


Quote from: strange_day on August 13, 2008, 22:51:06
I still stand by what i say anyhow   :smth045 :smth023

and why wouldn't you? i'm not talking to just you, but people seem to be so sensitive (these days?), like every disagreeing comment was a challenge to a duel or something, a sign to put up your guards and get ready to defend the fortress!  :smth066
i mean, what happened to people's will to just discuss, exchange ideas, compare impressions and especially try to describe why they feel so and so about something?
let's not get so pissed about everything in five secs. we can be committed and we can be sincere without being defensive at the same time.

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on August 13, 2008, 23:52:45
I was listening to WMS, Bloodflowers and The Cure randomizing the tracks but however much I try to find that special thing Cure songs used to have, I can't  :(

I'm sure you know that Burn was just composed & recorded just by Robert and Boris, and that Boris inspired Robert "to introduce each instrument singularly and in sequence" in Just Like heaven. (Wikipedia)

My point is that Jason is so uninspiring and musically limited that is contributing to the debacle of the band. (And I used to think that Larry Mullen Jr. was the worst rock/pop/alternative drummer...  :roll:)

Now I want to share something a friend of mine gave me recently:

45. Lol Tolhurst / Boris Williams

You could easily look at the switch between the Cure's two definitive drummers as the fulcrum between the two phases of their career. Lol Tolhurst's drumming was tight, economical, and unembellished, guiding the Cure through their post-punk and goth years with his crisp and dark playing, but by the mid-'80s, the band was moving on to bigger and better things, and brought on Boris Williams to fill in as Lol became increasingly unreliable. Williams' drum work, pronounced, thundering and anthemic, was just what the band needed for the epic and commercially viable musical statements they'd make for the rest of the decade, through the early '90s. Then they brought on some other guy, and no one cared about the band again. Coincidence?

Source: http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/weekly_article/stylus-magazines-50-greatest-rock-drummers.htm

I really hope that:

1. Jason improves 1,000% for the next record or
2. Boris returns to the band or
3. Robert hires a new drummer
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: strange_day on August 14, 2008, 07:19:45
Quote from: japanesebaby on August 11, 2008, 12:40:32
(hey you should here how musicians talk about each other, on a regular basis.... and not just enemies, even when they respect each other(!) ;))

I might not agree with everything youve said but this just sums up everything (Im one too  ;)) and youre totally right! haha

I think if you take that viewpoint its a whole different thing. I know because i do it, taking your own personal taste as the be all end all. (Dont deny it, its what musicians do  :lol:)

I guess the point i was trying to make was not aimed at the people who have a problem with his style (i understand that) but more the attitude of people who think Boris should return.... y'know? (Theres a lot of that loaded behind these discussions of his style)
And its about letting that go and moving on.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: japanesebaby on August 14, 2008, 10:57:58
;)
Quote from: strange_day on August 14, 2008, 07:19:45
I think if you take that viewpoint its a whole different thing. I know because i do it, taking your own personal taste as the be all end all. (Dont deny it, its what musicians do  :lol:)

actually i don't agree with this. i don't think you can generalize this quite as easily. 
that seems to mean that musicians were somehow "less flexible" with their tastes/opinions, that they were bound to have much more fixed attitudes. well to me the only difference is perhaps that musicians might sometimes (i mean, sometimes) be able to explain the reasons behind their tastes better than some (i mean, some - i hate this kind of generalizing, really) non-musicians. and perhaps that might make it look like they opinions were somehow more fixed or even "rigid". but i've met a lot of non-musicians who have a lot more fixed attitudes about something, up to the point that it's totally impossible to even try and discuss those things (whatever they were) with them. and they might even be more or lee unable to talk about the reasons behind their tastes and even uninterested to explore the whoel issue of "why is it that i actually feel/think this way? why i like this, why i dislike that?". i think that's a lot more problematic, actually. then again, i also do know musicians who are totally uninterested to explore those things too - so all i can say is that this really doesn't depend on whether you are a musician or not. it's some other kind of a question of personality or something.

yes, what comes to (talking about) their own art/artistic output, then you can say that musicans are probably "less flexible" in that way. but that's a necessity: you cannot be a creative artist if you don't believe in yourself and what you do 110%.
but what comes to artists' tastes on other people's art, i think it's not at all true. being a musician can give you an advantage to be able to pay attention to certain things better than others, but it doen's mean you had to have any more "fixed" attitudes/tastes than anyone else out there.


(by the way, i haven't said boris should come back. to be honest i don't think it's  reasonable to wish that, so dwelling in that is living in the past, i agree.
i've just said that the cure needs a decent drummer. a world of difference. :!:)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: japanesebaby on August 14, 2008, 18:27:05
Quote from: strange_day on August 14, 2008, 07:19:45
And its about letting that go and moving on.

i remember at the time when porl joined, some people got excited and wondered if even more of the classic cure line-up from the wish tour era might show up. but it's still not reasonable to say that all (or most) of the people who don't like jason's style just sit and wait and sit and wait and rant about "why doesn't boris come back?". at least i'm not one of those people. i really don't think boris will come back and i'm not saying jason is mediocre just because i wished he'd be fired and room made for boris. that would be totally silly. the only reason i say jason is mediocre and an unimaginative musician is because when i listen to his playing he simply sounds like that(!).
so some people (myself included) just wish that the cure simply had a better drummer, whoever that was. and that has nothing to do with boris, actually.
i find all these "jason vs, boris" sort of settings/polls just quite unfruitful and unconstructive. because if that is taken as a starting point then it'll just cause all these "yes!" "no!" "yes!!" "NO!!" kind of "conversations" where people don't really say much at all, just come to "defend their colors" or something and imo we're only missing the target there. i'd be much more interested to discuss how the cure's music would improve, if they finally decided to get themselves an imaginative drummer.


so about one thing i do agree and it's about moving on. perhaps people who still want boris back are stuck in the past. but actually i feel that it's the cure is also stuck into the past here (=keeping a mediocre talented artist in the payroll, year after year).
moving on would mean they'd finally do something for their drummer issue.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: strange_day on August 14, 2008, 18:50:31
Quote from: japanesebaby on August 14, 2008, 18:27:05
Quote from: strange_day on August 14, 2008, 07:19:45
And its about letting that go and moving on.
so about one thing i do agree and it's about moving on. perhaps people who still want boris back are stuck in the past. but actually i feel that it's the cure is also stuck into the past here (=keeping a mediocre talented artist in the payroll, year after year).
moving on would mean they'd finally do something for their drummer issue.


I think thats personal taste, to say theres an 'issue'.... you mean you have an issue, the guys playing in the band and writing music with this guy dont have an issue.

I think to call him mediocre is a bit harsh, you could say Robert cant sing and Simons not a very technical bass player.... but it still works and they make fantastic music. I mean, personally i like the drum fills he does, so whether hes a 'technically bad' musician makes no odds (though i think some people are really making him out to be worse than he is)

Like i recently saw My Bloody Valentine and they were probably the loudest and most amazing band ive ever seen (second only to The Cure of course  :-D) But their drummer messed up so many times, even dropped a stick at one point and they had to start the song again! But it was still fantastic, nobody complained and just showed how much things like that really dont matter so much when the band is fantastic.

I wasnt directing the 'bring back boris' thing at you, i just feel that a lot of people get very possessive and think they know whats best for the band, but its all subjective, whether something sounds good or not, it comes down to personal preference, but ultimately, hes the guy up there onstage playing...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: japanesebaby on August 15, 2008, 08:04:06
Quote from: strange_day on August 14, 2008, 18:50:31
Quote from: japanesebaby on August 14, 2008, 18:27:05
Quote from: strange_day on August 14, 2008, 07:19:45
And its about letting that go and moving on.
so about one thing i do agree and it's about moving on. perhaps people who still want boris back are stuck in the past. but actually i feel that it's the cure is also stuck into the past here (=keeping a mediocre talented artist in the payroll, year after year).
moving on would mean they'd finally do something for their drummer issue.


I think thats personal taste, to say theres an 'issue'.... you mean you have an issue, the guys playing in the band and writing music with this guy dont have an issue.

yes but my comment is slightly taken out of its context now. perhaps i shouldn't have said the word 'issue' because it only makes people to look into some individual word.... but back to what the context was: what i originally said there was just one example of what I (and yes, now i'm being deliberately subjective) would rather discuss, instead of having these "JASON VS. BORIS, everybody choose your weapons and let's beat each other with just another series of futile i-am-right/you-are-wrong debates!" i mean that's what most cure forums all full of. i really can't even bother reading through all that anymore.

i'd find it a lot more interesting to try and discuss why we actually prefer the things we do (whetehr it was about cure drummers or something else). but sadly it's very difficult to do this because isntantly when you say something that is perhaps a bit strong people just get mad and think it's a call to arms or something. and i just find it frustrating that conversation (especially about certain topics) is sometimes difficult because people get so defensive.

for instance, if people want to "defend" jason then why not post some examples about his good drumming? examples of perhaps-not-so-good qulities has already been discussed here, i think. because the conversation doesn't go anywhere just as long as we just say "i like this and it's subjective, i can't explain it more, i just like it. period".
things are not THAT subjective.


(and yes i know some things ARE difficult to "explain" and some things can't/shouldn't be.
but sometimes we could try, that's all i mean. we can try to choose examples that can shed light on our likes/tastes.)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: japanesebaby on August 15, 2008, 08:13:52
ps.

Quote from: strange_day on August 14, 2008, 18:50:31
I wasnt directing the 'bring back boris' thing at you, i just feel that a lot of people get very possessive and think they know whats best for the band

i think people who prefer jason can also get just as possessive so i don't think we can point the finger on just one party here. :!:

about "what's best for the band?": it's not like people refuse to accept the reality, i think it's a bit wrong to say that. i think everyone who doesn't prefer jason are aware that they can't change the current line-up and they know that if bob is happy with jason then that's the end of that. but that doesn't mean they didn't have the right to speak up their different opinion in places like this(!). i mean, i really cannot see anything bad in people fantasizing "if i could have my say about the line-up" - you know just like people write their dream set lists all the time. it's really not any different than that(!).

so it's not the same as if some people totally refuse to accept the reality, that they are stuck in the past. the fact that people still keep on following the cure news and keep on buying the records & going to the concerts alone proves it, don't you think?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on August 19, 2008, 18:20:49
Quote from: Bloodflower on August 11, 2008, 06:12:30
This might be the most mean-spirited thread I've seen here -- in a while, at least.

The threat was started for a non-regular Curefans.com member who, by the way, have 2 karma points which means that most people actually support his opinion about Jason.

I have been reading the whole discussion and I don't find any single offensive comment towards Jason as a person. I think the point of the discussion are his skills as musician and I don't see nothing wrong on giving an opinion about that.

I have also noticed that about 8 to 10 people wrote their opinions about this matter, with 4 people in Jason's side, about 4 people in Jason's oposition, and 1 in the middle (me). So after all, the opinion of the fans seems divided 50/50.

Maybe is time to close this topic, unless someone else want to give another input about Jason's style.

Peace.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: splitmilk34 on August 20, 2008, 19:38:54
I have to weigh in on this, finally...
After watching the video (which was completely annoying, by the way) I've come to the conclusion that Jason Cooper is not Boris Williams who is not Lol Tolhurst. 
Seriously folks, if Jason played the parts the EXACT same way as on record then we'd probably be having a discussion about Jason's lack of individuality, originality and creativity. 
Realistically he may not be a better drummer than Boris (or maybe he is) - but he certainly is a better drummer than Lol (or maybe he's not).  If you listen to the way Boris played drums on the Faith & Pornography stuff, it certainly wasn't a hit for hit recreation of Lol's parts.  And, sure, maybe Jason's drumming is "busier" than needs be, but I do know this - when I've seen them live he's pounded the shit of his kit and it's certainly added a heavier edge to songs like "Push" and "FTEOTDGS" which is important, given that the band is only using guitars.

I've said it about 1,017,987 times on this thread now, but, here it goes again: the Disintegration/Wish-era lineup ain't coming back... ever... not happening.  I'm just happy the band is still making music! 
(music of which the drums are the least of my worries)

Also... who is to say that the video isn't fake????
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Carnage Visor on August 31, 2008, 01:37:16
I personally am more partial towards a drum machine for "100 Years", and all of those songs that originally used keyboards and drum machine, rather than using a real drum and guitars.

I have nothing against the drummers themselves, never have. It's the way they play it, and how the band sounds as a whole that means something to me. I never go, "Oh great, there's Boris on drums!" or "Oh no, it's LOL!". Instead, I often say, "Oh no, they aren't using a synth in an originally synth-heavy song!"

So he's cool with me. I wish he'd dress a bit darker or something to match Robert and Simon's usually punk/alternative look they have.  :P
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: revolt on September 01, 2008, 12:43:55
Quote from: Cure Freak on August 13, 2008, 22:23:14
Quote from: strange_day on August 13, 2008, 18:14:22
Yawn..... This topic never goes away.  :roll:

If anything that video just really annoyed me, its inaccurate, unfair and made by someone who clearly has waaayyy too much time on their hands.
I could argue it for hours and hours. I understand why people prefer Boris, thats easy, he was there in the 'good old days' and thats fair enough. But i get really sick of the black and white comparisons between the two, that one is perfect and the other always messes up - untrue. They both have different styles and thats what makes it interesting. Yes, Jason uses click tracks and samples, i dont see whats wrong with that, since nearly every drummer in a band that size plays to a click track live. I really like all the little samples of beats in there, it makes for a different version, more contemporary etc. Thats the reason they are there, not because the guy cant play. Look at Underneath The Stars, i think thats done really well.

But this isnt 1989 anymore, let it go, or get up there and do a better job yourself...

I'm totally with you there. Especially the last sentence.
:smth023


Are you people thinking of applying for a job as the new Cure drummer?  :-D
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: revolt on September 01, 2008, 12:52:23
Quote from: patitodark on August 13, 2008, 23:52:45
(And I used to think that Larry Mullen Jr. was the worst rock/pop/alternative drummer...  :roll:)



What? How come!!??  :smth011

Actually, the poorer standards for drumming tham seem to rule pop/rock nowadays started, I think, with all that baggy/madchester thing... That repetitive rollicking (its this a word?) pattern pretty much got adopted by every new pop/rock band then and it seems to have sticked.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: revolt on September 01, 2008, 12:56:39
Quote from: japanesebaby on August 14, 2008, 18:27:05
.i'd be much more interested to discuss how the cure's music would improve, if they finally decided to get themselves an imaginative drummer.


Budgie seems to be kind of unemployed these days... What if?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: revolt on September 01, 2008, 13:04:30
Quote from: japanesebaby on August 15, 2008, 08:13:52
i mean, i really cannot see anything bad in people fantasizing "if i could have my say about the line-up" -

Good idea.

Now, let's see...


Let's have Budgie replace Jason.


And Severin replace Simon.


Call John Carruthers for the place of Porl.


And, let's see... Siouxsie instead of Rob.... No, wait.  :-D

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: revolt on September 02, 2008, 12:30:46
Quote from: DrumStudy on August 08, 2008, 05:16:32
Lot of people complains about Jason drumming. For hardcore fans, he will always be the "NEW" drummer and kind of a "special guest" of the band.

Never before a band member's been so unpopular. Never before a band member's style didn't match with The Cure.

Some guys say that a good indicator of a bad drummer for The Cure, is when the guy uses a pre-recorded track for 100 years (Lol used it and so Jason).

Well, for you all, my serious study of Jason drumming. Probably I will be releasing a couple more in the long term. If you liked it, then subscribe to my videos.

I won't answer to your messages. Sorry. I've done it because I don't have the chance to talk to Robert and tell him what the real fans think about his drummer. And better yet, what is wrong with him. Why his style doesn't fit The Cure and such.

BTW, the music and the "study" begins at 00:23 but read/watch it all!

HERE IS THE LINK TO THE VIDEO. THANKS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LuXyX-KtVU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LuXyX-KtVU)


OK, I finally took the opportunity to watch and listen attentively to this video and I confess it made me laugh... Those triplets and cymbal bashing parts truly sound out of place. But I also think this video is a bit too nasty and maybe not well subatantiated, too? Because the thing you do is play the drums in Jason's style (so you say) over studio versions of well known Cure songs... To be really fair you would have to post live recordings of those songs showing Jason really playing the way you claim he does.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: ~*CherryRed*~ on September 06, 2008, 02:03:44
Oh God, I've never really sat down and picked apart the finer details of how these guys play the music... I guess that may be due to the fact that I'm not musical enough? Or I just don't care enough more likely! :roll:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: ~*CherryRed*~ on September 06, 2008, 02:05:02
Quote from: revolt on September 01, 2008, 13:04:30
Quote from: japanesebaby on August 15, 2008, 08:13:52
i mean, i really cannot see anything bad in people fantasizing "if i could have my say about the line-up" -

Good idea.

Now, let's see...


Let's have Budgie replace Jason.


And Severin replace Simon.


Call John Carruthers for the place of Porl.


And, let's see... Siouxsie instead of Rob.... No, wait.  :-D





Hahahahahahahahaha.... laugh! Did I laugh! I laughed!
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 06, 2008, 09:42:40
Quote from: revolt on September 01, 2008, 13:04:30
Quote from: japanesebaby on August 15, 2008, 08:13:52
i mean, i really cannot see anything bad in people fantasizing "if i could have my say about the line-up" -

Good idea.

Now, let's see...

Let's have Budgie replace Jason.

And Severin replace Simon.

Call John Carruthers for the place of Porl.

And, let's see... Siouxsie instead of Rob.... No, wait.  :-D

If Boris is not available then I´d suggest Mark Price, who is the guy that played the drums in Mint Car, Trap and Treasure in Wild Mood Swings.

Compare the drum/percussion sounds & volume of the songs recorded by Jason vs. the songs recorded by the other drummers. Jason is not using drumsticks but those called "Hot Rods" that minimize the volume, except probably for Strange Attraction which I believe was made using a drum machine and Want, where the toms are barely heard anyway.

I remember the first time I finished listening to the whole WMS album, I liked Jupiter Crash (it has that Cure style, sound & lyrics we all love, and the drums have a defined pattern. Demoed by Boris?), then Trap because it had a shiny sound  and the drums were really present and pushing the groove of the song. It was clear for me that something was missing...  but what really annoyed me was the sound of the mix. I felt it strange. Kind of "cheap" compared to previous albums.

Anyway, there is some info about Mark Price in Wikipedia: He born in 1959, same as Robert!, he is not only a drummer but also a percussionist (like Boris!).

Watch Mark here with All About Eve: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-wErcRYpVY
and watch Boris with Thompson Twins here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzStNNN4Ln8  :smth023


P.S. Who else thinks that Uyea Sound turned into Underneath the Stars?...

Any resemblance with the drumming in Uyea and what Jason plays in UTS is pure coincidence  ;)

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: revolt on September 08, 2008, 12:11:16
Quote from: patitodark on September 06, 2008, 09:42:40

P.S. Who else thinks that Uyea Sound turned into Underneath the Stars?...

Any resemblance with the drumming in Uyea and what Jason plays in UTS is pure coincidence  ;)



More people, as you can read here:

http://curefans.com/index.php/topic,5413.0.html


Anyway, I wasn't the first to notice that, since I didn´t even know 'Uyea Sound' until very recently, but the "resemblance" is really there...  (that is, if you can call it simply that, since the songs are, too my ears, clearly one and the same).
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 08, 2008, 21:48:54
Quote from: revolt on September 08, 2008, 12:11:16
Quote from: patitodark on September 06, 2008, 09:42:40

P.S. Who else thinks that Uyea Sound turned into Underneath the Stars?...

Any resemblance with the drumming in Uyea and what Jason plays in UTS is pure coincidence  ;)



More people, as you can read here:

http://curefans.com/index.php/topic,5413.0.html


Anyway, I wasn't the first to notice that, since I didn´t even know 'Uyea Sound' until very recently, but the "resemblance" is really there...  (that is, if you can call it simply that, since the songs are, too my ears, clearly one and the same).

Hey! Thanks for the info. So I wasn´t that wrong to think it then...
So, it´s clear Bob wanted to bring the old Cure back... but without the protagonism of the drums. Interesting.

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Splintered in his head on September 18, 2010, 23:01:19
My personal favourite drummer clearly is Andy Anderson. Just listen to some of the 84 concerts, especially the official recording "Concert".
I`m surprised he doesn´t get a mention here. Maybe it´s because he was a short time member in the band.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Whiskers on May 26, 2011, 01:12:47
Andy was my 2nd favorite drummer of The Cure. Of course Boris is going to be the favorite, but Andy made his drums roar. It's a shame that he wasn't with the band longer than he was.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on October 15, 2011, 11:38:43
Quote from: DrumStudy on August 08, 2008, 05:16:32
BTW, the music and the "study" begins at 00:23 but read/watch it all!

HERE IS THE LINK TO THE VIDEO. THANKS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LuXyX-KtVU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LuXyX-KtVU)
just noticed The Cure themselves asked YouTube to take down this video :P
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: lostflower4 on October 16, 2011, 04:02:49
Quote from: dsanchez on October 15, 2011, 11:38:43
Quote from: DrumStudy on August 08, 2008, 05:16:32
BTW, the music and the "study" begins at 00:23 but read/watch it all!

HERE IS THE LINK TO THE VIDEO. THANKS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LuXyX-KtVU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LuXyX-KtVU)
just noticed The Cure themselves asked YouTube to take down this video :P
That's such crap... I don't remember all the details, but I'm pretty sure there was nothing in the video that violated Fair Use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use).

However, if Robert or Jason really did see it...

:lol:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on November 08, 2011, 21:30:53
Hey I have just noticed that all the videos dedicated to Jason (his errors and bad sound) were deleted. Sure Robert and Co. watched the videos and asked YouTube to take them down.

http://i.imgur.com/BaQWm.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/BaQWm.jpg)

But the one about Boris is still alive...  :evil:

Edit: There are some of those videos in Metacafe  :twisted:

Jason Cooper Can't Stop Playing the Cymbals - Video (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4160158/)

CHANNEL: http://www.metacafe.com/channels/Cure4AllandMe/ (http://www.metacafe.com/channels/Cure4AllandMe/)

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: ruthydurantula on March 21, 2012, 17:08:26
Well, I really love the cure!that's it!
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on July 24, 2012, 09:35:33
Quote from: dsanchez on August 09, 2008, 19:14:43
Also, have anyone noticed the beginning of "Boys don't cry"? If you let the drums alone, I wouldn't know that the 2008 version of Boys don't cry is indeed Boys don't cry (see attached for a comparison between the 1992 version and the strange 2008 version)

I wrote this about 4 years ago. Since 2002, I have seen The Cure 7 times. One show in 2002, two shows in 2008, one show in 2011, and three this year, 2012. I really didn't like how Jason sounded during the 4Tour (way too much cymbals and unnecessary additions IMO). But this has nothing to do with how he sounded (and played) on the shows I saw in 2011 and later. If you go to any of the upcoming festivals this year, then you will notice a huge difference. Almost flawless (and BDC sounds as usual ;)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on July 24, 2012, 16:45:10
I'm glad to notice that Jason's drum sound has improved. He is using bigger drums now and has moved from DW to Natal drums.

Shake dog is now played with both hands on the hi-hats and a slower tempo, just like in Andy or Boris times. Doing the unstuck is faster and sounds good thanks to Reeves too. The backing tape is at a lower volume and doesn't bother as much as before.

I was surprised to hear that Jason was playing Push with many of the fills played by Boris in studio but sadly it was only in the first two shows because I in the last shows he returned to play as usual repeating his same old fills again and again and again  :roll:

Anyway, he is not bashing cymbals and his sound has improved. I'm not hating the drums that much this time and that makes me feel good  :twisted:

----

Quote from: dsanchez on July 24, 2012, 09:35:33
Quote from: dsanchez on August 09, 2008, 19:14:43
Also, have anyone noticed the beginning of "Boys don't cry"? If you let the drums alone, I wouldn't know that the 2008 version of Boys don't cry is indeed Boys don't cry (see attached for a comparison between the 1992 version and the strange 2008 version)

I wrote this about 4 years ago. Since 2002, I have seen The Cure 7 times. One show in 2002, two shows in 2008, one show in 2011, and three this year, 2012. I really didn't like how Jason sounded during the 4Tour (way too much cymbals and unnecessary additions IMO). But this has nothing to do with how he sounded (and played) on the shows I saw in 2011 and later. If you go to any of the upcoming festivals this year, then you will notice a huge difference. Almost flawless (and BDC sounds as usual ;)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dmscheuer on August 09, 2012, 04:24:51
I agree 100% that Boris is/was much better than J@ason, and that the 'sound' of the kit is getting better. I hate the added cymbal/hi hats where there ought not to be any, however the reason is because Robert for some reason decided to play with backing tracks lately. J@son has to play along with a click track and cue the rest of the band during what should be drum-free parts of songs so that they don't lose their place and have whatever they are using as backing tracks fall out of time.

Along with this, playing with backing tracks restricts any sort of improvisation/jamming that we used to see ( read 1992 "A Forest", etc.) because of the same reason....

On another note, watching today's FB link from The Cure to their VIEILLES CHARRUES FESTIVAL video - notice J@son on FTEOTDGS. For all of the people who claim J@son isn't guilty of playing the same fill over and over again, this is all the proof against your argument anyone needs. And just 2 crashes and along with the china cymbal?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on August 09, 2012, 05:30:39
I watched the video early today and I noticed that there were lots of shots for Jason.
It seems that Robert was in a good mood and smiling at him. That made Jason happy and began to play that hip-hop beat that we all hate in the snare drum.

Visit: http://liveweb.arte.tv/fr/video/The_Cure_Vieilles_Charrues/ (http://liveweb.arte.tv/fr/video/The_Cure_Vieilles_Charrues/)

Listen in:
00:22 the drum fill intro (that includes the snare drum and the original doesn't) that makes Bob smile at Jason.
00:40 / 00:54 the hi-hop snare drum beat with a horrible (ab)use of the china cymbal
02:28 the same drum fill as in 00:22 that makes Bob and Simon smile...
02:40 / 02:53 the hip-hop beat with (ab) use of the china cymbal
03:04 drum fill he will repeat in other songs... (like IBD)
03:17 again the same fill
03:25 same fill
03:30 same fill
03:43 same fill
03:50 same fill
03:57 same fill
05:01 THE SAME FILL IN INBETWEEN DAYS!
05:33 same fill...
05:54 / 06:47/ 07:06 / 07:20 same fill!!!!!!!!!!
07:57 THE SAME DRUM FILL IN JUST LIKE HEAVEN!!!!!!!!!! 
09:53 missed the two hits in the china cymbal
10:48 same fill
12:31 this fill using the toms and cymbals is his 'new' drumfill and uses it in songs like Shake dog Shake, Want and others too.

dmscheuer is right: the SAME drumfills are repeated again and again during FTEOTDGS! and is disgusting!

Jason has changed the drum pattern of The Hungry Ghost and has added A LOT of hits in the snare drum. Almost the same hip-hop drum pattern at 00:40 & 02:40. Why does he like to play that busy? doesn't he notice that it makes the song sound bad?

25:02 the hip-hop things begins...
OK, it's his song but why repeat the same pattern again and again and again????
It's obvious that the guy has no more resources and with The Cure has played all that he can.


Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 06, 2012, 16:10:32
I saw this in another forum early this morning  :-D

THE HEAD ON THE DOOR WITH JASON AS DRUMMER (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xsrvav)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on September 06, 2012, 16:33:17
Quote from: patitodark on September 06, 2012, 16:10:32
I saw this in another forum early this morning  :-D

I think you're obsessed with Jason :lol:

I saw the band twice in 2008, and 5 times in 2011/2012. In 2008 Jason was using way too much cymbals, but in 2011/2012 he sounds really good (as good as he did when he started on The Cure)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 06, 2012, 17:22:53
Quote from: dsanchez on September 06, 2012, 16:33:17
Quote from: patitodark on September 06, 2012, 16:10:32
I saw this in another forum early this morning  :-D

I think you're obsessed with Jason :lol:

I saw the band twice in 2008, and 5 times in 2011/2012. In 2008 Jason was using way too much cymbals, but in 2011/2012 he sounds really good (as good as he did when he started on The Cure)

I was looking for the latest new on The Cure and the video jumped immediately and wanted to share it here ;)

As I said before, I'm glad Jason has improved a little and is not bashing the cymbals now.. anyway the video is very good and had a good laugh.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on July 19, 2013, 02:17:07
I've been reading nothing but criticism, on the sites I visit, of Jason's drumming throughout his tenure with The Cure.  Not sure why.  Boris was Boris, excellent, possibly knew what 'not to play' (something the Indians consider as important as what IS played) a little better than Jason but not by much if at all.  Some of the criticism was of the use of a 'metronome' if that's what it's called when used under live circumstances and of the use of pre-recorded drum parts triggered electronically.  The pre-recorded drum parts are not used because Jason is unable to play all the parts during any given song.  No one could, there isn't enough time and that's a fact.  The use of a timer/timing device/whatever is necessary for the electronic triggering of keyboard parts and drum parts because the various parts have to sync up to something or the time would be COMPLETELY fucked up (pardon my English).  You can't seriously think that RS would bring in a drummer that can't keep time!  He and Simon lock in beautifully, it's a treat to watch actually.  Why does Simon continually prevent himself from smiling?  Happens in every song.  Let it happen and get it over with.  Anyway...  It's funny as hell to see Simon looking at Jason and hopping around (especially during slow songs) as if he wants Jason to crank up the tempo.  Integral part of any Cure set.  I was really heartened to read RS's comments when Jason was for whatever reason left out of the band's lineup in whatever that award was a couple months ago, I forget.  Seventeen years.  Wait...  RS is incredibly loyal to his bandmates and rarely if ever says a bad word about any of them, even changing the real story to be more...tactful I suppose.  Nice to see, not sure it's ever happened before in pop music.  Love the site.  I see the first four letters of my 'verification code' are 'CTUN'...very funny.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on July 20, 2013, 15:18:16
Quote from: cheyler on July 19, 2013, 02:17:07
I've been reading nothing but criticism, on the sites I visit, of Jason's drumming throughout his tenure with The Cure. 

yes merging your comment with a previous, similar topic.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on July 20, 2013, 16:35:33
Quote from: cheyler on July 19, 2013, 02:17:07You can't seriously think that RS would bring in a drummer that can't keep time!  He and Simon lock in beautifully, it's a treat to watch actually.

I can't help but agreeing with you here! I thought the same thing(s) when reading some comments here in this thread and elsewhere!  :)

Quote from: cheyler on July 19, 2013, 02:17:07I was really heartened to read RS's comments when Jason was for whatever reason left out of the band's lineup in whatever that award was a couple months ago, I forget. 

You mean this:
http://curefans.com/curenews/robert-on-jason-cooper/ (http://curefans.com/curenews/robert-on-jason-cooper/)

Even in that "news thread" followed a very unnecessary discussion...  :roll:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on July 20, 2013, 17:05:51
Hi cheyler! and welcome to the forum!

Quote from: cheyler on July 19, 2013, 02:17:07
I've been reading nothing but criticism, on the sites I visit, of Jason's drumming throughout his tenure with The Cure.  Not sure why.

Carefully read the comments, listen to his drumming and you may know why. But among other things are his bad sound in live and in the studio, and the lack of distinctive drum parts (drum patterns, intros, etc.)


Quote from: cheyler on July 19, 2013, 02:17:07
Boris was Boris, excellent, possibly knew what 'not to play' (something the Indians consider as important as what IS played)

THAT is a very important fact and something that Jason critics hate about him: His playing is TOO busy filling notes with snare drum hits, cymbals and toms!


Quote from: cheyler on July 19, 2013, 02:17:07
Some of the criticism was of the use of a 'metronome' if that's what it's called when used under live circumstances and of the use of pre-recorded drum parts triggered electronically.  The pre-recorded drum parts are not used because Jason is unable to play all the parts during any given song.  No one could, there isn't enough time and that's a fact.

You MUST watch The Cure Show DVD and specially "To Wish Impossible Things". Listen to all of the percussion sounds and watch Boris playing all of them (even the big gong sound).
Also, listen to bootlegs or look in YouTube for "Lament" in Glastombury. All of the percussion sounds are played live by Boris.


Quote from: cheyler on July 19, 2013, 02:17:07
You can't seriously think that RS would bring in a drummer that can't keep time!

As you may know, Jason wasn't Robert choice in the first place... WMS producer recommended him for the job and Robert obliged to hire him.


Quote from: cheyler on July 19, 2013, 02:17:07
He and Simon lock in beautifully

Boris and Simon locked more than beautifully  ;)


Quote from: cheyler on July 19, 2013, 02:17:07
I was really heartened to read RS's comments when Jason was for whatever reason left out of the band's lineup in whatever that award was a couple months ago, I forget.

It was for the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.
(http://www.slicingupeyeballs.com/2011/09/28/robert-smith-cure-drummer-jason-cooper/ (http://www.slicingupeyeballs.com/2011/09/28/robert-smith-cure-drummer-jason-cooper/))

Quote from: cheyler on July 19, 2013, 02:17:07
Nice to see, not sure it's ever happened before in pop music.

Lennon on Ringo


Anyway, this year I've been in a couple of concerts and Jason has improved his drum sound a little (he's changed of drum brand. Again!).  He is also playing the percussion sounds on Plainsong too.

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on July 20, 2013, 17:52:41
Quote from: patitodark on July 20, 2013, 17:05:51
You MUST watch The Cure Show DVD and specially "To Wish Impossible Things". Listen to all of the percussion sounds and watch Boris playing all of them (even the big gong sound).

I totally agree that Boris was (is!) a very good drummer and his drum parts on "KM KM KM" and beyond are very well composed and performed!!
But, as far as I know, he left the band by his own choice (as did Porl a bit before him). So I see not much reason to moan about (as many others do). It's VERY obvious that Robert wouldn't bury The Cure because the drummer left. (Otherwise he'd have done so long before...)

Quote from: patitodark on July 20, 2013, 17:05:51
As you may know, Jason wasn't Robert choice in the first place... WMS producer recommended him for the job and Robert obliged to hire him.

Ok, someone recommended him. Still, in the end, I suppose it was Robert's decision to keep him as the drummer?
How did Boris become the drummer, btw? As far as I know, Phil Thornally recommended him (then bassist and producer of "Pornography"). He was hired after Vince Ely couldn't play all the shows on a US tour (after Andy Anderson had been fired). Why was he offered to stay in The Cure then? Because of his style? I guess so, but more importantly, as Robert said in "Ten Imaginary Years" (official bio), because Boris "had a Cure sense of humour".
Which makes me think: maybe there are other reasons (apart from drum style) which made RS keep Jason in the band? He probably brings something in as a personality, not just as a time-keeper. (Which, I think, was the case with most people who ever joined The Cure.) And this (important) thing has been forgotten by nearly all of the above-mentioned "critics".   :(
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on July 20, 2013, 19:07:54
Hi Ulrich!

Quote from: Ulrich on July 20, 2013, 17:52:41
Ok, someone recommended him. Still, in the end, I suppose it was Robert's decision to keep him as the drummer?
How did Boris become the drummer, btw? As far as I know, Phil Thornally recommended him (then bassist and producer of "Pornography"). He was hired after Vince Ely couldn't play all the shows on a US tour (after Andy Anderson had been fired).

A very good recommendation from a guy who KNEW the band very well, he knew what kind of musician Robert needed, and because he was also a band member at that time too!
An important thing to remember is that Boris had a long career as a musician than Jason, having played with known artists as Strawberry Switchblade and the Thompson Twins (also Kim Wilde which I don't like much, and with the first incarnation of Queen!). He also did the hippie trail :)  where I'm sure is where he got those musical influences displayed in The Snakepit, Like Cockatoos, If only tonight we could sleep, etc
On the other hand, Jason came from My Life Story. He claims to be a Cure fan since 17 Seconds but still he can't get to feel the vibe of Play for Today's bass drum pattern, right. And plays strange fills that cut -again- the vibe of the songs.


Quote from: Ulrich on July 20, 2013, 17:52:41
Why was he offered to stay in The Cure then? Because of his style? I guess so, but more importantly, as Robert said in "Ten Imaginary Years" (official bio), because Boris "had a Cure sense of humour".

Yes, I remember that line... and we can watch Boris joking in CURE BORIS FUNNY.flv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_rAFd4D9lE#) and a couple of other videos too (sad there are no more videos of Boris around).
But I've never ever watched a video of Jason joking or having a "Cure sense of humor"... "Which makes me think: maybe there are other reasons (apart from drum style) which made RS keep Jason in the band?"

I also remember that Simon said he was "dead nervous" when Boris joined the band, as he knew Boris was a great drummer :)


I don't moan about Jason's playing anymore, at least not as I did in 1996-2008 :D 
BTW, in 2000 during the Bloodflowers tour I heard Jason doing some cool stuff in the hi-hat cymbals during the soundcheck.
Also, I've watched him, in a YouTube video, playing a nice short drum solo in Peru this year.
Jason might be a good drummer but his style is not for The Cure. IMO.


Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on July 20, 2013, 20:10:38
Quote from: patitodark on July 20, 2013, 19:07:54
A very good recommendation from a guy who KNEW the band very well, he knew what kind of musician Robert needed, and because he was also a band member at that time too!

And they were in desperate need of a drummer for the tour, as Andy had been sacked in Japan and they arrived on the West Coast with no drummer. First person who was asked was Vince, not Boris, don't forget this! I'm sure Boris was asked cause Phil knew him and he was available for a few weeks tour!

Quote from: patitodark on July 20, 2013, 19:07:54
But I've never ever watched a video of Jason joking or having a "Cure sense of humor"...

Jason might be a good drummer but his style is not for The Cure. IMO.

Tell it to RS. ;)
I wasn't implying that JC had a "Cure sense of humour", this was just an example that the members of The Cure don't get their job for technical perfectionism, but more for their personality. (We'd have to ask RS what exactly he likes about Jason.)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on July 20, 2013, 20:46:52
Quote from: Ulrich on July 20, 2013, 20:10:38
And they were in desperate need of a drummer for the tour, as Andy had been sacked in Japan and they arrived on the West Coast with no drummer. First person who was asked was Vince, not Boris, don't forget this! I'm sure Boris was asked cause Phil knew him and he was available for a few weeks tour!

Yes, they were desperate but a disco or funk drummer wasn't called for the job. Phil knew the band and maybe Vince was recommended because of his work with The Psychedelic furs. So let's say he wasn't that far musically from The Cure... they are both from the 80s, etc.

When Vince started feeling uncomfortable playing certain songs (At that time Vince was more a music producer than a drummer), then Phil thought about Boris.

Have you heard Jason playing with My Life Story? if not, I invite you to hear his playing (patterns and drum fills) there  :roll:


Quote from: Ulrich on July 20, 2013, 20:10:38
(We'd have to ask RS what exactly he likes about Jason.)

I remember some guy (who supposedly worked with the band) wrote in a forum that Robert knew Jason wasn't that good but it was his decision to keep him in the band because if not, people would say he made a mistake that ruined The Cure and blah, blah.. so RS was keeping J on a whim. I don't know if it's truth but it kinda makes sense to me.

Anyway, at this moment I'm listening and enjoying KMX3 and Wish on my new Pioneer stereo system! ;)   Really, the drums were an important part of the band during the Boris era.

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on July 21, 2013, 10:14:07
Quote from: patitodark on July 20, 2013, 20:46:52
Yes, they were desperate but a disco or funk drummer wasn't called for the job. Phil knew the band and maybe Vince was recommended because of his work with The Psychedelic furs. So let's say he wasn't that far musically from The Cure... they are both from the 80s, etc.

When Vince started feeling uncomfortable playing certain songs (At that time Vince was more a music producer than a drummer), then Phil thought about Boris.

The way I heard it, Vince had some other commitment and no time for all the gigs. Thus Boris was asked, like Vince he was a "stand-in" for this tour, then later was asked to stay in the band because he fit. (It might've ended differently, they might've found another drummer months later...)

Quote from: patitodark on July 20, 2013, 20:46:52
I remember some guy (who supposedly worked with the band) wrote in a forum that Robert knew Jason wasn't that good but it was his decision to keep him in the band because if not, people would say he made a mistake that ruined The Cure and blah, blah.. so RS was keeping J on a whim. I don't know if it's truth but it kinda makes sense to me.

Really? Does make absolutely no sense to me. The Cure has seen so many band members. Roger for example left in 1990, came back in 1995 and was sacked in 2005, only to return in 2011... (Yet I heard no-one say his exit ruined the band in 2005.... Btw, Roger told some "not-so-nice" stories in 2005/6 about Robert & the Cure, yet not the above mentioned rumour...)
RS could've sacked JC in 2005 too and not many would've complained or wondered... Also allegedly he nearly disbanded the group in 1997 (when he made "Wrong Number"). I don't think a change of drummer back then would have received much notice by fans or press...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on July 21, 2013, 17:18:04
Quote from: Ulrich on July 21, 2013, 10:14:07
The way I heard it, Vince had some other commitment and no time for all the gigs. Thus Boris was asked...

I don't know what your source is, but my source for telling that Vince was more a producer than a drummer, etc., is a magazine where Boris was interviewed. He also gives a little more details about how he joined the band.



Quote from: Ulrich on July 21, 2013, 10:14:07
Quote from: patitodark on July 20, 2013, 20:46:52
I remember some guy (who supposedly worked with the band) wrote in a forum that Robert knew Jason wasn't that good but it was his decision to keep him in the band because if not, people would say he made a mistake that ruined The Cure and blah, blah.. so RS was keeping J on a whim. I don't know if it's truth but it kinda makes sense to me.

Really? Does make absolutely no sense to me. The Cure has seen so many band members. Roger for example left in 1990, came back in 1995 and was sacked in 2005, only to return in 2011... (Yet I heard no-one say his exit ruined the band in 2005.... Btw, Roger told some "not-so-nice" stories in 2005/6 about Robert & the Cure, yet not the above mentioned rumour...)
RS could've sacked JC in 2005 too and not many would've complained or wondered... Also allegedly he nearly disbanded the group in 1997 (when he made "Wrong Number"). I don't think a change of drummer back then would have received much notice by fans or press...

This is what you and me think... only Robert knows the truth.


Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on July 21, 2013, 17:43:24
Quote from: patitodark on July 20, 2013, 17:05:51As you may know, Jason wasn't Robert choice in the first place... WMS producer recommended him for the job and Robert obliged to hire him.
The Cure published an ad in a newspaper looking for a drummer. That is how Jason was found.

http://curefans.com/gallery/index.php/publications/the-cure-con-nuevo-baterista-el-comercio-peru-1996 (http://curefans.com/gallery/index.php/publications/the-cure-con-nuevo-baterista-el-comercio-peru-1996)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on July 21, 2013, 22:07:18
Quote from: cheyler on July 19, 2013, 02:17:07I was really heartened to read RS's comments when Jason was for whatever reason left out of the band's lineup in whatever that award was a couple months ago, I forget. 

You mean this:
http://curefans.com/curenews/robert-on-jason-cooper/ (http://curefans.com/curenews/robert-on-jason-cooper/)

Even in that "news thread" followed a very unnecessary discussion...  :roll:


Five pages, jeez.  Thank you to the administrator for moving my post to the correct place and thank you to everyone for being so welcoming, good to know such things still exist.  Haven't yet been all around the site but am learning every day.

Now I know why Jason always looks so hunted!  Whenever he looks up at RS on stage he looks as if he's expecting to get punched.  I'm surprised he hasn't quit, his self-esteem must be almost nil.  I sure hope not since there's no reason for it.  I have to wonder how much of this would be said to his face?

Having watched the DVD of Coachella countless times, the sound of the drums on stage was horrible.  Some of the other concerts like Rome and MSG and Charlotte were revelations as far as the drums go.  The guys who did set-up, the types of mics and their placements and the guy doing the mixing made all the difference in the world!  It sounded like I was sitting on the drum stool, really really enjoyable.  The inconsistency has nothing to do with Jason.  I've got to wonder what kind of tech crew Jason's got, the drums will be set up exactly the same every night, no drummer would tolerate otherwise.  Do The Cure tour with the sound equipment, mixer, recording equipment, monitor mixer, PA mixer and all that stuff?  Or do they go with the house equipment and crew?  That would explain the inconsistencies.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on July 22, 2013, 00:06:11
Quote from: cheyler on July 21, 2013, 22:07:18
Quote from: cheyler on July 19, 2013, 02:17:07I was really heartened to read RS's comments when Jason was for whatever reason left out of the band's lineup in whatever that award was a couple months ago, I forget. 

You mean this:
http://curefans.com/curenews/robert-on-jason-cooper/ (http://curefans.com/curenews/robert-on-jason-cooper/)

Even in that "news thread" followed a very unnecessary discussion...  :roll:


Five pages, jeez.  Thank you to the administrator for moving my post to the correct place and thank you to everyone for being so welcoming, good to know such things still exist.  Haven't yet been all around the site but am learning every day.

Now I know why Jason always looks so hunted!  Whenever he looks up at RS on stage he looks as if he's expecting to get punched.  I'm surprised he hasn't quit, his self-esteem must be almost nil.  I sure hope not since there's no reason for it.  I have to wonder how much of this would be said to his face?

Having watched the DVD of Coachella countless times, the sound of the drums on stage was horrible.  Some of the other concerts like Rome and MSG and Charlotte were revelations as far as the drums go.  The guys who did set-up, the types of mics and their placements and the guy doing the mixing made all the difference in the world!  It sounded like I was sitting on the drum stool, really really enjoyable.  The inconsistency has nothing to do with Jason.  I've got to wonder what kind of tech crew Jason's got, the drums will be set up exactly the same every night, no drummer would tolerate otherwise.  Do The Cure tour with the sound equipment, mixer, recording equipment, monitor mixer, PA mixer and all that stuff?  Or do they go with the house equipment and crew?  That would explain the inconsistencies.

I don't know if they travel with all of that gear, but it's strange how Jason is the only one having the inconsistencies...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on July 22, 2013, 00:10:14
You MUST watch The Cure Show DVD and specially "To Wish Impossible Things". Listen to all of the percussion sounds and watch Boris playing all of them (even the big gong sound).
Also, listen to bootlegs or look in YouTube for "Lament" in Glastombury. All of the percussion sounds are played live by Boris.


I'd love to get the Show DVD, I think it has been available only as a VCD?  In this country at least.  Americans are generally pretty unsophisticated and sometimes downright stupid about music, especially when you get past the cover and start getting into details.  Which explains the proliferation of rap music over here.  Mention the name Boris and most people think I'm talking about Bullwinkle or something. 

Just watched the video of TWIT (that's a good one...at least it's not TWAT).  You are absolutely right, the drumming is perfectly suited to the song.  It helps a little that it was professionally recorded and mixed and everything was just exactly perfect on the night.  And the fact that the stereo image is as wide as a football field (no matter where you live).

One other thing I noticed about Jason's sound is that while the on-stage sound may vary from gig to gig, the sound in the house is pretty revealing.  He's a lot more powerful than the image presented by the televised gigs.  Of course, that may just set everyone off once again.  Too powerful, right?  Hey, I'm getting the hang of this.  I'm just hoping, for the sake of the other guys, that the variation in sound doesn't come across on the stage.  I'd hate to have to play with a different drummer every night.  If a drummer is changing his brand often, he's dissatisfied, which will also contribute to the inconsistency.  I wish Jason all the luck in the world and hope everything settles down very very soon.

Maybe the FA Cup could get The Cure to record a new version of One Hundred Years and call it 'One Hundred Yards' and use it as the theme song like New Order with World In Motion.  Maybe not.


Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on July 22, 2013, 10:43:09
Quote from: patitodark on July 21, 2013, 17:18:04
I don't know what your source is, but my source for telling that Vince was more a producer than a drummer, etc., is a magazine where Boris was interviewed. He also gives a little more details about how he joined the band.

My source (as often is the case recently) is the official bio book "Ten Imaginary Years". Here's quotes from Robert himself on this case:
"So we arrrived on the West Coast of America with a three week tour ahead of us, without a drummer and in a bit of a panic. We were in this bar deciding whether to cancel the tour or whether Lol should drum and we should carry on as a four piece when Phil phoned up a mate of his, Vince Ely (...)
Vince hadn't drummed in a band for about two years, but he was up for it (...)
Unfortunately he was doing advertising work, producing jingles or something, so we knew he'd have to leave the tour somewhere around Texas. Again, we thought of playing as a four piece but again Phil put out a call, this time to Boris Williams (...) Boris had actually already come to see us play at the Palladium in Hollywood, just to see the band and say hello to Phil so we called him up ..."
"Meeting him was just a happy accident really."

My point was: similar as with Jason many years later, there were different drummers at the time they tried out. They asked Boris to stay, same thing happened with JC. Don't see much difference here.

Quote from: patitodark on July 21, 2013, 17:18:04
This is what you and me think... only Robert knows the truth.

And maybe some other (ex-)band members. At least I was able to underline what I think with some examples from the band history. RS is seen by the press and most "casual" fans (those who do not visit the forums) as the "boss" anyway, so what would it matter to most if he changed drummers?  :?

Btw, I would love to see some other (more positive) threads by the musical "experts" here, e.g. "a study of Roger's keyboard style", as imho he's excellent (but I'm not expert enough to analyse it).  :oops:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on July 22, 2013, 17:09:06
Quote from: Ulrich on July 22, 2013, 10:43:09
My source (as often is the case recently) is the official bio book "Ten Imaginary Years". Here's quotes from Robert himself on this case:
"So we arrrived on the West Coast of America with a three week tour ahead of us, without a drummer and in a bit of a panic. We were in this bar deciding whether to cancel the tour or whether Lol should drum and we should carry on as a four piece when Phil phoned up a mate of his, Vince Ely (...)
Vince hadn't drummed in a band for about two years, but he was up for it (...)
Unfortunately he was doing advertising work, producing jingles or something, so we knew he'd have to leave the tour somewhere around Texas. Again, we thought of playing as a four piece but again Phil put out a call, this time to Boris Williams (...) Boris had actually already come to see us play at the Palladium in Hollywood, just to see the band and say hello to Phil so we called him up ..."

I own that book too and also the other one written by Dave Thompson & Greene, both purchased when they came out, so I know them pretty well and doesn't change anything of what I said earlier.

Quote from: Ulrich on July 22, 2013, 10:43:09
"Meeting him was just a happy accident really."

What an accident!

Quote from: Ulrich on July 22, 2013, 10:43:09
"Meeting him was just a happy accident really."
My point was: similar as with Jason many years later, there were different drummers at the time they tried out. They asked Boris to stay, same thing happened with JC. Don't see much difference here.[/quote]

The difference is that with Jason they had a real 'accident' :D  Like a crash or something like that.

Quote from: Ulrich on July 22, 2013, 10:43:09
"so what would it matter to most if he changed drummers?  :?

Remember that "a band is only as good as it's drummer".

As I said, Jason is probably a superb drummer, but his style is not for The Cure.
BTW, have you seen the poll results here? and what's been said in drummer forums? other Cure fans forums? and how people reacted when Jason wasn't mentioned in the Rock N' Roll Hall of fame? etc?

If you think Jason has a good musical taste, then you should watch this. If you still think his playing fits The Cure, then we are in different worlds:

Jason Cooper Can't Stop Playing the Cymbals - Video (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4160158/)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on July 23, 2013, 14:53:48
Quote from: patitodark on July 22, 2013, 17:09:06
I own that book too and also the other one written by Dave Thompson & Greene, both purchased when they came out

You should've read them after purchase. ;)
(Joke only!)

For my understanding, you seemed to imply that Phil had recommended Boris as THE new cure drummer, whilst I wanted to point out that Phil suggested him just because he was "available" for this tour. All other decisions were met afterwards. I hope this came across somehow?

Quote from: patitodark on July 22, 2013, 17:09:06
Remember that "a band is only as good as it's drummer".

Who says so? I don't agree with this theory. For me, a band needs good songs first and foremost.
Also, a band is often much more than just the sum of it's members...

Quote from: patitodark on July 22, 2013, 17:09:06
BTW, have you seen the poll results here? and what's been said in drummer forums? other Cure fans forums?

No, other forums aren't really relevant to me when I'm in this place. (Also is enough for me at the moment, apart from reading news on ChainofFlowers.)

QuoteIf you think Jason has a good musical taste, then you should watch this. If you still think his playing fits The Cure, then we are in different worlds:

These are extreme examples. He didn't sound like this when I was at gigs (quite a few between 1995 and 2008), thank heavens for that.  :)
Btw, I never said JC had "good taste"? I also never said he was a "superb drummer". He's a time-keeper, some others may be better, some worse.

All I wanted to point out: it was Robert's decision. Whatever one thinks about it, in the end we'll have to respect it (or just stop being "fans"). We won't change it anyway.
(My theories as to why this was decided, are in my previous posts. This is my last comment in this thread, unless new aspects come up.)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on July 24, 2013, 18:36:08
Been reading the posts in this thread and checking out some of the various examples given.  Also listening to a lot of the 'Wish'-era material, both live and studio.  If you want an incredibly well-recorded example of BW at his finest, check out the radio broadcast of the London show on 03-May-92.  The crew and engineers really allowed the band to shine that night, of course the band actually shining very brightly didn't hurt either.  I'd sure love to see the film of that show cleaned up with a well-mixed-and-mastered soundtrack released on DVD, instead of the somewhat disappointing much shorter version on tape.  It's only disappointing because twenty years later that era winds up being my favorite and there's not enough of it!  I really enjoy the off-beat stuff, playing ahead of the pulse or behind it, keeping it defined but not actually touching it.  I'd say that's the major difference between the two drummers, along with knowing when to lay back or lay off (the 'sometimes less is more' theory).
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: piggymirror on January 23, 2014, 22:32:52
Hi.

First post, so hello to everyone.  ;)

If ever Jason Cooper left, there´s a great free drummer out there... Budgie.  :twisted:
But I doubt Robert (and Severin...) want him around any more...  :(

But one can dream. A rhythm section composed of Budgie + Simon Gallup...  :rocker
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Hayley85 on January 24, 2014, 00:04:37
I adore Jason :)
He has his own style of drumming, and i like it.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Violator on February 06, 2014, 20:35:49
When I saw the band perform at the second Reflections show in Los Angeles, I really liked that he sounded more restrained and was actually drumming like Lol Tolhurst did. Listening to the Bestival album, recorded the same year, it was like I was listening to the same band, but with different drummers. Sometimes I think that Jason is a great drummer for the band (as evident on the Bloodflowers album), and other times I just think that he was just in the right place at the right time (as evident on 4:13 Dream).
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: revolt_again on March 13, 2014, 12:12:01
Quote from: piggymirror on January 23, 2014, 22:32:52
Hi.

First post, so hello to everyone.  ;)

If ever Jason Cooper left, there´s a great free drummer out there... Budgie.  :twisted:
But I doubt Robert (and Severin...) want him around any more...  :(

But one can dream. A rhythm section composed of Budgie + Simon Gallup...  :rocker

Ha, yes, Budgie would definitely be my first choice for a new Cure drummer, he is just great. And he has already played with Robert in the Banshees, in the 83-84 period... But let's face it, it will never happen.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: revolt_again on March 13, 2014, 12:18:26
I think it's fair to say that Jason Cooper isn't definitely the best drummer the Cure have ever had... His style does sound inadequate all too frequently. But he has done some good things: notice 'Bloodflowers' (the song) or 'The Promise', for instance. Anyway, I think he will probably be with The Cure until the end of times, for mainly 2 reasons: the band, and specially Robert, don't seem to be dissatisfied with his drumming style; Robert seems to be very loyal to his friends / bandmates, so he wouldn't fire Jason (remember how he kept Lol Tolhurst in the band even when Lol hadn't been contributing anything musically for far too long?).
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on March 13, 2014, 17:12:56
Quote from: revolt_again on March 13, 2014, 12:18:26
I think it's fair to say that Jason Cooper isn't definitely the best drummer the Cure have ever had... His style does sound inadequate all too frequently. But he has done some good things: notice 'Bloodflowers' (the song) or 'The Promise', for instance.

Well said, Mr. revolt!  :smth023
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: claudidark on August 15, 2014, 03:37:18
Ladies & genlemen, for your discussion...

http://youtu.be/HMmh0bfmSes (http://youtu.be/HMmh0bfmSes)

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on August 15, 2014, 10:57:51
Quote from: claudidark on August 15, 2014, 03:37:18
Ladies & genlemen, for your discussion...

lol. this is a neverending discussion, isn't?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: MeltingMan on August 15, 2014, 15:38:58
Quote from: dsanchez on August 15, 2014, 10:57:51
Quote from: claudidark on August 15, 2014, 03:37:18
Ladies & genlemen, for your discussion...

lol. this is a neverending discussion, isn't?
Yes.It's boring and shameful.The same old story again and again and again... :oops:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dmscheuer on August 16, 2014, 01:36:37
Quote from: MeltingMan on August 15, 2014, 15:38:58
Yes.It's boring and shameful.The same old story again and again and again... :oops:

Funny choice of words! Read my response to the 'Push using sequencers' thread about same old over and over again!

Though I don't exactly love Jason's style, it isn't exactly his fault. It's the decision to use backing tracks.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: MeltingMan on August 16, 2014, 10:48:30
Quote from: dmscheuer on August 16, 2014, 01:36:37
Quote from: MeltingMan on August 15, 2014, 15:38:58
Yes.It's boring and shameful.The same old story again and again and again... :oops:

Funny choice of words! Read my response to the 'Push using sequencers' thread about same old over and over again!

Though I don't exactly love Jason's style, it isn't exactly his fault. It's the decision to use backing tracks.
However...I made also an earlier and overall statement under Cure things/Re:keyboards or tapes??
I meant the periodical "Jason bashing" is simply embarrassing,just my opinion.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on August 16, 2014, 12:26:49
Quote from: MeltingMan on August 16, 2014, 10:48:30
I meant the periodical "Jason bashing" is simply embarrassing, just my opinion.

I agree. Nothing wrong with pointing out mistakes and/or unfitting backing tracks from time to time.
But the person who re-started the Jason discussion has 2 posts - both negative. Why would you join a "fan forum" just for bashing?  :smth011
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on August 17, 2014, 19:34:58
Even though my brain has learnt to block the drums out of Cure concerts from 1996-now, still it struggles whenever From the Edge of The Deep Green sea is played. Jason turns the drum pattern in an endless repeating mess of lots of notes played between the snare drum and the cymbals.

Imagine a metal guitarist in the band, and the guy playing -out of place- solos throughout the songs. That is how I feel Jason playing for The Cure.
Hear him from 00:45 to 01:21.

Fast forward to 5:39... Reeves' guitar solo is overshadowed by the amount of noise made by Jason.

http://youtu.be/Dr9RxkiZmd0 (http://youtu.be/Dr9RxkiZmd0)


Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on August 17, 2014, 21:11:06
Quote from: patitodark on August 17, 2014, 19:34:58
Even though my brain has learnt to block the drums out of Cure concerts from 1996-now, still it struggles whenever From the Edge of The Deep Green sea is played.

Just don't watch it then. ;)

Does claudidark happen to be your sister, by the way?  :-D
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dmscheuer on August 18, 2014, 02:56:23
I think that the discussion/debate still seems to be hanging around after all of these years suggests there is still concern regarding many peoples' (possibly) favorite band? The argument that Jason has been the bands longest running drummer can easily be countered with the argument then why, when he's played on 4 of the band's 13 studio albums, are there so few (ratio-wise) songs  from those albums played live? This may not be entirely Jason's fault, but Robert ( I assume) chooses the playlists. You'd figure roughly 1/3rd of the live set would be Jason-era songs?

Again, I don't think the issue is entirelyJason's fault. The monotony of every (unfortunately now, festival) show sounds EXACTLY the same is due, in part, to the use of backing tracks. For whatever reason, Robert has decided that instead of hiring another musician to tour, he would rather play to backing tracks. This restricts any improvisation whatsoever. It simply can't be done when you are playing to pre-recorded stuff that will end at a precise time. It's also why Jason 'needs' to play during previously drum-free parts of songs. He need's to keep the others 'in time' so that they all wind up at the correct point in the pre-recorded stuff when the drums are supposed to come back in.

However, the 'mis-playings' that are evident in YouTube videos, and more disturbingly official releases, are troublesome. The decision to allow 'Bestival' to be released without either using better performances of 'Open' ( Jason completely missing a fill at the beginning) and 'Why Can't I Be You' ( it actually sounds like Jason fell off his drum stool during the opening, WELL KNOWN, fill) among other things, or editing the performances, or even re-recording them is laziness and apathy on RS's part IMHO. And whoever decided that the drums should sound so
tiny should be sacked. Even comparing to other 'contemporary' act's live stuff, the drums sound ( not just  performance) is waaaay out of whack compared to the (attempted) emotion of the music
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on August 18, 2014, 09:34:33
Quote from: dmscheuer on August 18, 2014, 02:56:23
... why, when he's played on 4 of the band's 13 studio albums, are there so few (ratio-wise) songs  from those albums played live? This may not be entirely Jason's fault, but Robert ( I assume) chooses the playlists.

In an interview I think RS told that he and Simon pick the setlists. The reason (in my humble opinion) has nothing to do with Jason or drumparts, but with "nostalgia", as most people want to hear the old stuff...  :roll:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: MeltingMan on August 18, 2014, 14:21:44
Quote from: Ulrich on August 18, 2014, 09:34:33
Quote from: dmscheuer on August 18, 2014, 02:56:23
... why, when he's played on 4 of the band's 13 studio albums, are there so few (ratio-wise) songs  from those albums played live? This may not be entirely Jason's fault, but Robert ( I assume) chooses the playlists.

In an interview I think RS told that he and Simon pick the setlists. The reason (in my humble opinion) has nothing to do with Jason or drumparts, but with "nostalgia", as most people want to hear the old stuff...  :roll:
That's the crunch.The only solution,at least as attempt,is the continuation and improvement of
the Trilogy-concept,with all possible consequences (higher ticket prices,rarer concerts) and not an irritating personnel discussion.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on August 18, 2014, 21:24:33
QuoteIn an interview I think RS told that he and Simon pick the setlists. The reason (in my humble opinion) has nothing to do with Jason or drumparts, but with "nostalgia", as most people want to hear the old stuff...  :roll:


You just reminded me of the bit in 'Play Out' when RS asks "who's got the set list" and Boris pulls it out of his pocket and RS looks at it and says "whoa, are you sure?".  Very funny.  Maybe Boris used to pick 'em?  Or have more to do with it anyway.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on August 18, 2014, 21:33:05
QuoteAnd whoever decided that the drums should sound so [/size]tiny should be sacked. Even comparing to other 'contemporary' act's live stuff, the drums sound ( not just  performance) is waaaay out of whack compared to the (attempted) emotion of the music


The drum sound is a huge variable.  It seems over the last 5 years that almost every time the band is captured on video, Jason is playing a different brand of drumkit.  Not every obviously but you get the idea.  Sometimes the drums sound awful (the Coachella Festival in 2009) and sometimes they sound spectacular (NME Big Gig...also 2009).  A lot of that has to do with different sound crews, different mikes and/or miking techniques, indoor gig or outdoor gig, that kind of stuff.  The Rome 2008, Charlotte 2008 and MSG 2008 all sound fantastic.  Listening to tapes made out in the crowd, you can hear that Jason's a fairly powerful drummer too, something that doesn't come across on the 'professionally' recorded stuff.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on August 18, 2014, 21:37:59

Imagine a metal guitarist in the band, and the guy playing -out of place- solos throughout the songs.

Uhh......isn't that what we've got now??




Fast forward to 5:39... Reeves' guitar solo is overshadowed by the amount of noise made by Jason.
http://youtu.be/Dr9RxkiZmd0 (http://youtu.be/Dr9RxkiZmd0)
[/quote]

That is really funny, hadn't really noticed it on first watching, or hadn't really listened to it in the context outlined in your comment.  Very funny.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on August 18, 2014, 22:18:04
Quote from: cheyler on August 18, 2014, 21:37:59

Imagine a metal guitarist in the band, and the guy playing -out of place- solos throughout the songs.

Uhh......isn't that what we've got now??

Notice I said "out of place solos" ;)
To me, Reeves does a very acceptable job. I'd like to hear him in a new studio album, so we all can see what he comes up with.

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on August 18, 2014, 22:31:55
I'd like to hear something new too, it'll make a change from the...'inbred' Cure albums over the last decade, somebody new (apart from 'Wrong Number') with a different perspective.  Will always miss Porl though.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on August 19, 2014, 00:30:36
Quote from: cheyler on August 18, 2014, 21:33:05
Jason is playing a different brand of drumkit.
He began with Yahama, then DW, then Brady and now Natal. With Yamahas his sound was good. With DW he began to sound like he's playing drums made of cardboard.

But not only the drums change but the cymbal too. The worst in 2004, full of china cymbals...

He still can't set himself up with an almost standard cymbal set. Just the china cymbal to his right is the one that is fixed. And also he got rid of the ride cymbal too (thanks God!). A ride cymbal never ever formed part of any other Cure drummer's set before... that was part of The Cure's sound too.

Quote from: cheyler on August 18, 2014, 21:33:05
Not every obviously but you get the idea.  Sometimes the drums sound awful (the Coachella Festival in 2009) and sometimes they sound spectacular (NME Big Gig...also 2009).  A lot of that has to do with different sound crews, different mikes and/or miking techniques, indoor gig or outdoor gig, that kind of stuff.  The Rome 2008, Charlotte 2008 and MSG 2008 all sound fantastic.

Funny how Boris or even Lol didn't have this kind of problems. At least on all the concerts (pro shot & from the audience) that I've watched/heard.

Quote from: cheyler on August 18, 2014, 21:33:05
Listening to tapes made out in the crowd, you can hear that Jason's a fairly powerful drummer too, something that doesn't come across on the 'professionally' recorded stuff.

The thing is that not only power is what The Cure needs, but a drummer with creativity and good musical taste. One that can -among other things, create clever intros and drum patterns, a guy with better feel and respect for the old classic songs... So, The Cure needs a drummer  :twisted:

Now I will listen to my Entreat album from 1990... by the way, Robert did a very bad job remixing and mastering Entreat Plus... he gave Boris the same drumsound as Jason! hahaha AWFUL! overall it sounds like it's been recorded from an AM radio station broadcast or something.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on August 19, 2014, 12:24:34
@cheyler: I had to edit some of your posts - please make sure your quotes are intact when posting.

Quote from: cheyler on August 18, 2014, 21:24:33
You just reminded me of the bit in 'Play Out' when RS asks "who's got the set list" and Boris pulls it out of his pocket and RS looks at it and says "whoa, are you sure?".  Very funny.  Maybe Boris used to pick 'em?  Or have more to do with it anyway.

Well I was referring to an interview from 2012 or 2013. No idea who chose older setlists...

Quote from: patitodark on August 19, 2014, 00:30:36
... by the way, Robert did a very bad job remixing and mastering Entreat Plus... he gave Boris the same drumsound as Jason! hahaha AWFUL! overall it sounds like it's been recorded from an AM radio station broadcast or something.

Yeah, indeed some re-masters aren't perfect (same with the "Bestival" cd drum-sound) - you might get the impression either Robert wants drums to sound like this or his hearing has been damaged (probably through all these years listening to loud drums in rehearsal studios etc.!)  :roll:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: MeltingMan on August 19, 2014, 20:40:31
@patitodark
I'm not concerned about the facts,naturally.I'm only concerned about,that Jason was already
"dismissed" by a (semi-)professional minority and some,possibly old-fashioned and part-time,cure
fans.Most of the fans,including me, have no idea about drumkits,microphones or even sound characteristics,but we  know,that Robert noticed the problem and he has the responsibility and,
last but not least,the confidence of many,if not all,fans.---
:?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dmscheuer on August 20, 2014, 04:03:32
Quote from: MeltingMan on August 19, 2014, 20:40:31
@patitodark
I'm not concerned about the facts,naturally.I'm only concerned about,that Jason was already
"dismissed" by a (semi-)professional minority and some,possibly old-fashioned and part-time,cure
fans.Most of the fans,including me, have no idea about drumkits,microphones or even sound characteristics,but we  know,that Robert noticed the problem and he has the responsibility and,
last but not least,the confidence of many,if not all,fans.---
:?

I'm sorry, but are you saying that you cannot tell that the drum sound is, well, LACKING, on Bestival ?!?

You may be 'tired' of the 'discussion', but I think anyone who has decent hearing can tell the difference between decent, appropriate drum sounds and what was released on Bestival. It's entirely possible that it is not Jason's doings/fault (see the Entreat 'remaster'). But it certainly doesn't help him or his supporters with respect to this 'discussion'.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on August 20, 2014, 11:27:25
Quote from: dmscheuer on August 20, 2014, 04:03:32
You may be 'tired' of the 'discussion', but I think anyone who has decent hearing can tell the difference between decent, appropriate drum sounds and what was released on Bestival.

Yes, but we've discussed this many times now - it tends to get boring when the same issue is brought up again and again.
Let's not forget that Bestival was a "quick shot", being released quite "soon" after the show happened AND it was for charity! Sadly this aspect is hardly ever considered by "fans". :(

In 2011 I wrote this about it (and I still stand by every word):
http://curefans.com/curenews/the-cure-bestival-live-2011/msg75378/#msg75378 (http://curefans.com/curenews/the-cure-bestival-live-2011/msg75378/#msg75378)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dmscheuer on August 21, 2014, 04:47:41
Quote from: Ulrich on August 20, 2014, 11:27:25
Yes, but we've discussed this many times now - it tends to get boring when the same issue is brought up again and again.

Not sure about how much more boring this discussion is than which song on what album is the best, or which performance of song "X" is the best? At least it brings about discussion. At least on my part, I try to be civil and explain why I feel how I do as opposed to just saying Jason stinks.... I've said before he is a very good drummer. If he is where he is he must be. My personal opinion is I don't think he fits the band as well as someone else might ( who, I don't know. But - even as a drummer - I still don't '"get" what he plays most of the time. It just doesn't feel "right" to me. And before anyone jumps in and says most fans like him, I beg to differ. Look at the poll for one. And just the fact that this discussion is still happening after 17 years proves that people STILL feel strongly about it). Just as I can't say you are wrong for liking Jason as a fit for the band, you can't tell me I'm wrong for saying he's a bad fit.

Quote from: Ulrich on August 20, 2014, 11:27:25Let's not forget that Bestival was a "quick shot", being released quite "soon" after the show happened AND it was for charity! Sadly this aspect is hardly ever considered by "fans". :(

In 2011 I wrote this about it (and I still stand by every word):
http://curefans.com/curenews/the-cure-bestival-live-2011/msg75378/#msg75378 (http://curefans.com/curenews/the-cure-bestival-live-2011/msg75378/#msg75378)

If you're saying that the drum sound is awful because the album was for charity, then I must say that makes it worse! If you aren't going to put out the best product you can - ESPECIALLY when you're doing it to raise money for a charity - then you shouldn't put it out to begin with. You're essentially asking people to buy a product that is sub-par, possibly and probably lessening your potential sales and donation to the charity. An artist/group should always put out the BEST product when they expect people to pay for it. Doubly so when they want to raise money for a charity.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on August 21, 2014, 10:27:18
Quote from: dmscheuer on August 21, 2014, 04:47:41
Not sure about how much more boring this discussion is than which song on what album is the best, or which performance of song "X" is the best?

At least there's something new from time to time, because different people prefer different songs.
What claudidark and others have brought up here, has been discussed on several pages now. YAWN.

Quote from: dmscheuer on August 21, 2014, 04:47:41
If you're saying that the drum sound is awful because the album was for charity

If you read what I wrote, you'll see I said that it might be because it was a "quick shot".  :roll:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on August 21, 2014, 15:33:57
Some interesting discussion going on here.

I guess for some fans the most important will be the quality of the product regardless of the objective the product was made for (e.g. charity or anything else). For some other fans, it will be different.

I personally didn't buy the Bestival CD. I must say that the sound I heard in the songs that finally made it to the CD discouraged me of buying it. Not that I don't support charities, I do, but maybe for this particular one I felt discouraged due the product outcome. Maybe one day I will buy the CD, who knows. When it comes to music I buy, I always buy something that I REALLY like.

As for Jason's style/sound and Boris. We have discussed this again and again and I think, being objective, we know who was the best drummer in the band. I agree with the comments above that Jason IS a good drummer, but I also agree that maybe he is not the best for The Cure. Obviously, Robert does not agree with us and at the end of things, it's his band so he can put there whoever he wants :)

The Cure - A Forest (Live 1992) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnVldyHRcjU#)

The Cure - A Forest (Bestival Live 2011) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NYQo8OJAY4#)

In the videos above we can see that The Cure live sound mixing was way better in 1992 than it's now. And I don't mean just the drums.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on August 21, 2014, 17:15:07
Quote from: dsanchez on August 21, 2014, 15:33:57
Some interesting discussion going on here.

Really, where does it happen? I saw nothing new/interesting here since claudidark re-started it.

Quote from: dsanchez on August 21, 2014, 15:33:57In the videos above we can see that The Cure live sound mixing was way better in 1992 than it's now.

But one of these comes from an officially released (i.e. professionally mixed) video, while the other does not. Difficult to compare, unless you were there on both nights...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on August 21, 2014, 17:55:21
Quote from: Ulrich on August 21, 2014, 17:15:07
Quote from: dsanchez on August 21, 2014, 15:33:57
Some interesting discussion going on here.
Really, where does it happen? I saw nothing new/interesting here since claudidark re-started it.

people's motivations to act in certain way. I think that's interesting.

Quote from: Ulrich on August 21, 2014, 17:15:07
Quote from: dsanchez on August 21, 2014, 15:33:57In the videos above we can see that The Cure live sound mixing was way better in 1992 than it's now.
But one of these comes from an officially released (i.e. professionally mixed) video, while the other does not. Difficult to compare, unless you were there on both nights...

Now that you mention, I think the best sounding official live video with Jason on it was the Trilogy concerts. The sound of the official "Festival 2005" videos is horrible. And so is all the 4Tour IMO (an emotive tour, but very very bad sound mixing - saw the band in Paris and Oberhausen in 2008 and the sound was light-years away from the first time I saw them in 2002, not to mention the Wish or Prayer Tour as seen in official and unofficial videos)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on August 21, 2014, 17:58:38
For those interested, a discussion about the "The Cure sound":

http://curefans.com/albums-and-songs/what-was-the-best-cure-sound/ (http://curefans.com/albums-and-songs/what-was-the-best-cure-sound/)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: MeltingMan on August 22, 2014, 15:25:42
Quote from: Ulrich on August 21, 2014, 17:15:07
Quote from: dsanchez on August 21, 2014, 15:33:57
Some interesting discussion going on here.

Really, where does it happen? I saw nothing new/interesting here since claudidark re-started it.

Quote from: dsanchez on August 21, 2014, 15:33:57In the videos above we can see that The Cure live sound mixing was way better in 1992 than it's now.

But one of these comes from an officially released (i.e. professionally mixed) video, while the other does not. Difficult to compare, unless you were there on both nights...
I'm sorry,Ulrich,but which one is the unofficial video,...the second?
I'm asking, because it is not released,so it seems,in Germany.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on August 22, 2014, 16:22:05
Quote from: MeltingMan on August 22, 2014, 15:25:42
I'm sorry,Ulrich,but which one is the unofficial video,...the second?

As far as I know there is no official "Bestival" live video anywhere in the world (?).

Also, I believe, any video, official or bootleg, can't really give the impression how a concert really sounded on that night - how you hear it while you're standing there in the crowd experiencing it with your own ears... (those mini speakers at the computer here are quite good - but nothing compared to a PA at a gig).

Quote from: dsanchez on August 21, 2014, 17:55:21
Now that you mention, I think the best sounding official live video with Jason on it was the Trilogy concerts.

Yeah, from memory (been a while since I last watched it), there had been nothing negative about the drum sound to my ears.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on August 29, 2014, 04:01:23
Quote from: Ulrich on August 22, 2014, 16:22:05
Yeah, from memory (been a while since I last watched it), there had been nothing negative about the drum sound to my ears.

The overall is acceptable. What I didn't like is the snare drum sound during the Disintegration part of the show. It's flat and dull.

The cymbals's decay time is too short.

Closedown being played with hot-rods is also a no-no.

The toms are tuned too high for Disintegration...

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on August 29, 2014, 10:11:42
Quote from: patitodark on August 29, 2014, 04:01:23
the snare drum sound 
The cymbals's decay time
hot-rods is also a no-no.
The toms are tuned too high ...

I'm just glad I do not notice such details! ;)

I've never listened to The Cure because of the drumming, it was the melodies and the mood and the lyrics...

If I want to listen to real good drumming I turn to Josh Freese (who has played with nearly everyone, from The Vandals to Nine Inch Nails)!
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dmscheuer on August 30, 2014, 02:03:21
Quote from: dsanchez on August 21, 2014, 15:33:57As for Jason's style/sound and Boris. We have discussed this again and again and I think, being objective, we know who was the best drummer in the band. I agree with the comments above that Jason IS a good drummer, but I also agree that maybe he is not the best for The Cure. Obviously, Robert does not agree with us and at the end of things, it's his band so he can put there whoever he wants :)

The Cure - A Forest (Live 1992) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnVldyHRcjU#)

The Cure - A Forest (Bestival Live 2011) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NYQo8OJAY4#)

In the videos above we can see that The Cure live sound mixing was way better in 1992 than it's now. And I don't mean just the drums.

To be honest, the drum sounds on A Forest 2011 are not terrible. The songs from the first 3 albums, a smaller drum sound works OK. As does the larger drum sound we had gotten used to with Boris. However, the songs that - let's say - require that bigger sound, well the song just doesn't sound the same. The same goes for when Jason changes the patterns/fills on iconic songs ( see Disintegration, WCIBY, Open, FTEOTDGS etc.), well again, at least to me, it sounds wrong....

Quote from: dsanchezI've never listened to The Cure because of the drumming, it was the melodies and the mood and the lyrics...

Wrong drum sounds ruining the 'mood' of a song....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxtF3rOzK3w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxtF3rOzK3w)

More wrong drum sounds, plus the (yikes) missed fill in the intro...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoLGq0FS3o0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoLGq0FS3o0)

Sheesh 'wish' I could have embedded the videos - sorry :P
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on August 30, 2014, 09:40:26
As I said before, not being a drummer myself, mostly I do not notice such things...
And I'm happier because of it! :D
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on August 30, 2014, 12:55:00
Quote from: dmscheuer on August 30, 2014, 02:03:21
Sheesh 'wish' I could have embedded the videos - sorry :P
make sure the URL does not have the "s" (of secured http) at the beginning.

In other words, this works
http://....
and this does not
https://...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 09:42:01
Listen this intro for In between days...:

The Cure - Inbetween Days (Live 2004) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3imK1cv0M4#)

THAT must had shaken the other band member's brains...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on September 04, 2014, 13:22:27
Quote from: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 09:42:01
Listen this intro for In between days...:
I like this one better - flawless:

The Cure - Inbetween Days (Live 1995) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlAhAC-DTB4#)

I think Jason best time was from the time he started until around 2002...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on September 04, 2014, 13:40:42
Quote from: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 09:42:01
THAT must had shaken the other band member's brains...

Maybe it did. Perry & Roger left because of it... or maybe I remember that wrong.  :lol:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 16:26:18
Quote from: Ulrich on September 04, 2014, 13:40:42
Quote from: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 09:42:01
THAT must had shaken the other band member's brains...

Maybe it did. Perry & Roger left because of it... or maybe I remember that wrong.  :lol:

Haha yeah...

In his memories about recording Disintegration, Roger also wrote: "...  live on tour some nights it was great and others it was rubbish but that's the beauty of playing live. When you play with backing tapes it's always the same, it's always good, when you play live it has the opportunity to be fantastic and also to be rubbish. I know which I prefer and which most people prefer."

It's clear he hates -or hated- backing tapes (a.k.a. Jason Cooper).
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on September 04, 2014, 16:59:52
Quote from: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 16:26:18
It's clear he hates -or hated- backing tapes (a.k.a. Jason Cooper).

And that's your conclusion from Roger's "Disintegration" memories (when JC was still far away)? Alrighty...  :roll:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 17:12:22
Quote from: Ulrich on September 04, 2014, 16:59:52
Quote from: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 16:26:18
It's clear he hates -or hated- backing tapes (a.k.a. Jason Cooper).

And that's your conclusion from Roger's "Disintegration" memories (when JC was still far away)? Alrighty...  :roll:

Do you know when these memories were written? :roll:
Have you ever read them?  :roll:   :roll:   :roll:   :roll:
:D
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 17:16:12
Quote from: dsanchez on September 04, 2014, 13:22:27
Quote from: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 09:42:01
Listen this intro for In between days...:
I like this one better - flawless:

The Cure - Inbetween Days (Live 1995) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlAhAC-DTB4#)

I think Jason best time was from the time he started until around 2002...

Those Yamaha drums were very punchy... also Jason's playing is better than today.


Quote from: dsanchez on September 04, 2014, 13:22:27
I think Jason best time was from the time he started until around 2002...

He did a very acceptable job in 1995 & 1996
In 1997 he began with that stiff style and overplaying the snare drum.
1998, the cardboard box drums entered in scene...
2000, backing tracks. The first thing that can be heard in Bloodflowers is a backing track.
From there on, Jason declined more and more.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on September 04, 2014, 18:16:22
Quote from: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 17:16:12
He did a very acceptable job in 1995 & 1996
In 1997 he began with that stiff style and overplaying the snare drum.
1998, the cardboard box drums entered in scene...
2000, backing tracks. The first thing that can be heard in Bloodflowers is a backing track.
From there on, Jason declined more and more.

I saw The Cure in 2002, then again in 2008, 2011, 2012, 2013 and recently in 2014.

Besides 2008 (too many cymbals), and maybe 2005 (judging by the 'Festivals' video) I think Jason did it very good so far. He is still not my favorite The Cure drummer, but he is pretty OK. His drumming during the 'Reflections' show was excellent.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on September 04, 2014, 18:24:43
Quote from: dsanchez on September 04, 2014, 18:16:22
He is still not my favorite The Cure drummer, but he is pretty OK.

This "conclusion" I have read so many times now here, how many times will we have to repeat the same discussion again (and again... and again)?  :roll:

Quote from: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 17:12:22Have you ever read them?  :roll:

Yes. And I can prove it (if you would read & post on other topics in this forum instead of just this one, you might know already!):
http://curefans.com/albums-and-songs/why-does-the-cure-almost-always-change-their-line-up/msg760659/#msg760659 (http://curefans.com/albums-and-songs/why-does-the-cure-almost-always-change-their-line-up/msg760659/#msg760659)

If your "theory" might be correct in any way, why did he come back to this (now) horrible band then?  :?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on September 04, 2014, 18:43:12
Quote from: Ulrich on September 04, 2014, 18:24:43
Quote from: dsanchez on September 04, 2014, 18:16:22
He is still not my favorite The Cure drummer, but he is pretty OK.
This "conclusion" I have read so many times now here, how many times will we have to repeat the same discussion again (and again... and again)?  :roll:

well, it's a discussion forum and this is a *polemic* subject that comes back from time to time. I guess it will go on and on until The Cure ends or until they hire a new drummer.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 18:44:44
Quote from: Ulrich on September 04, 2014, 18:24:43
Yes. And I can prove it (if you would read & post on other topics in this forum instead of just this one, you might know already!):
http://curefans.com/albums-and-songs/why-does-the-cure-almost-always-change-their-line-up/msg760659/#msg760659 (http://curefans.com/albums-and-songs/why-does-the-cure-almost-always-change-their-line-up/msg760659/#msg760659)

Do you want me to look for and read YOUR posts and also memorize what you wrote? I'm so sorry, but that will not happen ;)

Really, your answer clearly implied that Roger wrote his memories before Jason joined the band, and that was wrong.


Quote from: Ulrich on September 04, 2014, 18:24:43
If your "theory" might be correct in any way, why did he come back to this (now) horrible band then?  :?

Time to ask him via Twitter maybe?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 19:26:55
Quote from: dsanchez on September 04, 2014, 18:16:22
Quote from: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 17:16:12
He did a very acceptable job in 1995 & 1996
In 1997 he began with that stiff style and overplaying the snare drum.
1998, the cardboard box drums entered in scene...
2000, backing tracks. The first thing that can be heard in Bloodflowers is a backing track.
From there on, Jason declined more and more.

I saw The Cure in 2002, then again in 2008, 2011, 2012, 2013 and recently in 2014.

Besides 2008 (too many cymbals), and maybe 2005 (judging by the 'Festivals' video) I think Jason did it very good so far. He is still not my favorite The Cure drummer, but he is pretty OK. His drumming during the 'Reflections' show was excellent.

I agree. He did a good job in Reflections but I still can't stand his repetitive fills of dahhhh--dah-dah-bum, or the other dah-dah-bum  dah-dah-bum  that he plays always in almost every -past & present- song.

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on September 04, 2014, 20:16:25
Quote from: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 19:26:55
I agree. He did a good job in Reflections but I still can't stand his repetitive fills of dahhhh--dah-dah-bum, or the other dah-dah-bum  dah-dah-bum  that he plays always in almost every -past & present- song.

well, you need to start accepting the fact that he is the drummer of The Cure and that he is not leaving the band and that he is Robert's favorite drummer and the member with more years in the band after Robert and Simon, if I am correct. I understand you don't like him but I don't think this is going to change things :)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 20:38:48
Quote from: dsanchez on September 04, 2014, 20:16:25
Quote from: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 19:26:55
I agree. He did a good job in Reflections but I still can't stand his repetitive fills of dahhhh--dah-dah-bum, or the other dah-dah-bum  dah-dah-bum  that he plays always in almost every -past & present- song.

well, you need to start accepting the fact that he is the drummer of The Cure and that he is not leaving the band and that he is Robert's favorite drummer and the member with more years in the band after Robert and Simon, if I am correct. I understand you don't like him but I don't think this is going to change things :)

You're right... but he will also be the most infamous/hated/forgotten (Rock and Roll Hall of Fame) member of the band :)

In 2000 I went to a couple of shows and also was present at one of the soundchecks. While Jason was testing the drums, he played some things in the hi-hats and the toms that lead me think that he in fact is a guy with some drums skills BUT his style definitely is not for The Cure. While he focused on fast rolls and things, Boris was more into long, musical drum rhythms.

I can easily imagine If Only Tonight We Could Sleep or One More Time or A Thousand Hours with drum patterns like the ones in Anniversary or Treasure, if Jason were the drummer for Kiss Me x3.   :?

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on September 04, 2014, 20:41:17
Quote from: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 18:44:44
Do you want me to look for and read YOUR posts and also memorize what you wrote?

No, but if you read & post elsewhere than just in ONE single topic, you might know a little more about the users in this forum...

Quote from: dsanchez on September 04, 2014, 20:16:25I understand you don't like him but I don't think this is going to change things :)

Well, at least he has tried.  :lol:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 21:37:21
Quote from: Ulrich on September 04, 2014, 20:41:17
No, but if you read & post elsewhere than just in ONE single topic, you might know a little more about the users in this forum...

1. haha yeah, maybe I should visit the "Happy Birthday Jason Cooper", "Jason talked to me", "Jason solo project" threads too  :lol:


Quote from: Ulrich on September 04, 2014, 20:41:17
Well, at least he has tried.  :lol:

2. Wrong again, like when you said that Roger wrote his memories when Jason didn't even join the band :lol:

I know you will enjoy this video ;)

http://youtu.be/NXCMkz4qZP0 (http://youtu.be/NXCMkz4qZP0)

The guys at Zildjian must be happy with him:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 21:39:01
Another great song spoiled by Jason... what is Robert saying to Simon?
"I should've hired Mark Price" maybe :D

http://youtu.be/AT8B9V10Nbs (http://youtu.be/AT8B9V10Nbs)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on September 05, 2014, 09:23:51
Quote from: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 21:37:21Wrong again, like when you said that Roger wrote his memories when Jason didn't even join the band :lol:

I never said that. I just doubted your theory that Roger's memories (about a time before JC joined!) implied that he hates or hated JC. (Is there any hint in any Roger interview about him hating JC? Especially from the same time, when he was out of the band and had nothing to "lose" when slagging off his former bandmates?)

Roger's words were "I prefer" not "I hate" (i.e. he prefers one thing, does not necessarily mean he "hates" the other thing). So for you to conclude he hates something or even someone remains very far-fetched.  :?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: strange_day on September 07, 2014, 14:59:41
Quote from: patitodark on September 04, 2014, 21:39:01
Another great song spoiled by Jason... what is Robert saying to Simon?
"I should've hired Mark Price" maybe :D

http://youtu.be/AT8B9V10Nbs (http://youtu.be/AT8B9V10Nbs)

Actually Robert messed that one up, made a chord change early. Jason came in at the right time.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 08, 2014, 23:25:42
http://youtu.be/4quvnweBh1A (http://youtu.be/4quvnweBh1A)

Fast forward to 02:15 and watch Jason's left hand. There is no need to be a musician or drummer (though it would help a little more), to notice that he is not thinking/playing like a rock drummer who plays steady single quarter note beats, instead  he is doing that annoying - Jason's trademark - funky beat! So, in his mind he is playing funk or fusion or jazz or only God knows what!

Really, this video clearly reveals more about his weaknesses and his approach when composing drum pats... also reveals something about why his playing style doesn't fit The Cure.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on September 12, 2014, 17:24:09
So many (negative) comments on Jason under The Cure's cover of The Beatles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDxDW9jEjHg#t=150 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDxDW9jEjHg#t=150)

I think some people here will enjoy reading that :?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Matti on September 12, 2014, 22:07:55
Where's that popcorn smiley when you need it?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on September 13, 2014, 01:57:13
just added it to the emoticons panel! popcorn
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on September 13, 2014, 02:03:30
well, I was reading several comments in this topic, and yes, there's definitely certain fascination of Jason for the cymbals:

Secrets live 1985 (only guitars at the beginning, just like in the album)

The Cure - Secrets, The Head Tour 1985 (total repertoar) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB1uBxurRiA#)

Secrets live 2011 (intro with guitars and cymbals at the beginning)

THE CURE - secrets - London - Reflections / seventeen seconds - 15.11.2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKHdLQAp5uQ#ws)

however, I personally prefer the more slow 2011 version (which is closer to the album), but yes, I would take the cymbals out at the beginning...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on September 13, 2014, 02:16:55
As it is often said, 'ignorance is bliss', especially when it comes to music and musicians and not knowing certain things about playing music (as Ulrich said in his previous post).

Looks like Jason is going to turn out to be (hell, he is already) one of the longest-serving members of The Cure, third longest after Robert and Simon.  With all the complaining about Jason, I figure that with Robert as the final arbiter when it comes to how he feels The Cure is best presented to the public both live and in the studio and the fact that he has displayed solid personal integrity in the past, he must feel Jason is a damn fine drummer and perfectly suitable and a perfect fit for The Cure.

He'll be with us for a long while yet, which means The Cure will be with us for a long while yet!
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dmscheuer on September 13, 2014, 02:58:51
Okay - i stepped back for a few days, but with the argument on YouTube over "Hello Goodbye" (which I actually like - even though I agree with Dsanchez in that it sounds like they're playing in a pub) I feel I need to add another point.

I held on to this for a few days, but in this performance from last week - Jason manages to make a 'Jason' track worse live with incessant cymbals. Look and listen to this version of 'Want'
The Cure - Want (Toronto Riot Fest 09-06-14) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59hkqdDv8hk#ws)

And with regards to patitodark's post about "It's Over" - during the intro at around 0:09-0:12 Jason looks like he isn't even sure which crash cymbal to hit!

I know Ulrich will jump in about how 'boring' this is, but if I didn't care about the band, I WOULD stop listening to them and wouldn't care one way or another. But the problem is I do care, and even though it's been nearly 20 years, I feel Robert has made, and continues to make, a terrible mistake with his band - a band I love, unfortunately.

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: MeltingMan on September 14, 2014, 10:24:32
I think it's remarkable,that a long time member of the group has been attacked of that kind,
without the "desired" result and that over years (!).Hmm...
Even patitodark said,that he improved his style.I mean the whole subject developed an
obsessive character and that's a bit unfair.
All in all I can share Ulrich's view.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on September 14, 2014, 11:40:34
Quote from: MeltingMan on September 14, 2014, 10:24:32I mean the whole subject developed an obsessive character and that's a bit unfair.

It has indeed. I must ask those people to refrain from mentioning my name in those posts (thus trying to provoke me to react), especially if I haven't posted for a good while... (I will comment if I ever find anything worth commenting, don't worry.)

Quote from: dsanchez on September 12, 2014, 17:24:09
So many (negative) comments on Jason under The Cure's cover of The Beatles

You do read youtube comments? Nothing to do with Cure, but I never read those anymore, since there's not enough moderating, thus any troll can comment any kind of rubbish... this happened with many yt vids, so I stopped reading those a long time ago.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 15, 2014, 18:23:20
Can't Jason look for videos in YouTube and watch how the original drummers play to their songs?

Can any person in his right mind think that the new drum intro for Caterpillar has some kind of good musical taste? cymbals all over the place on top of those chaotic hits on the toms. It's so obvious that Jason can't catch the soul of the songs from the past catalog and he doesn't care to play them right!

http://youtu.be/Cbcjy4Wfcdk (http://youtu.be/Cbcjy4Wfcdk)

Now compare sound and performance:

http://youtu.be/VYWcCRhdClY (http://youtu.be/VYWcCRhdClY)

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 16, 2014, 07:51:53
Robert asking Jason to play louder in 00:18 and 00:26

http://youtu.be/i6C-4dyEQfQ (http://youtu.be/i6C-4dyEQfQ)
(Lovecats RAH 2011)


And in this video Robert can't hear Jason (or is it that he is telling his drummer what to play?) and asks for more volume:

http://youtu.be/WcoKxvfQl3c (http://youtu.be/WcoKxvfQl3c)
(Prayers for rain Charlotte 2008)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Matti on September 16, 2014, 10:02:07
I can't imagine that in the second video Robert can't hear Jason - he's standing right in front of the drum set. No idea what this gesturing means, perhaps it's just "Yeah, play it like that - like you did in the rehearsal."

I have no doubts about the Lovecats clip, though. In this case, You are totally wrong. Robert isn't asking anything from Jason. He is telling the guy responsible for the on stage sound to raise the drums volume on his monitors, as the rhythm section is really important in a song with a lot of swing in it. This, btw, is common behaviour for a lot of bands while they play live - interacting with their roadies to get the sound right. If Robert told Jason to play louder, that would cause a lot of trouble around the PA desk.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on September 16, 2014, 10:19:48
Quote from: Matti on September 16, 2014, 10:02:07
He is telling the guy responsible for the on stage sound to raise the drums volume on his monitors, as the rhythm section is really important in a song with a lot of swing in it. This, btw, is common behaviour for a lot of bands while they play live - interacting with their roadies to get the sound right.

You hit the nail on the head here. Anyone can see the same thing happen in older Cure videos (with or without Jason)!
On stage, hardly anybody would tell a drummer to play louder when they're hearing the drums over the monitors...

Well I guess, sadly, such assumptions are what happens when you view yt-vids only with one single thing (drums) in mind. "Obsessive", as someone already pointed out.  :roll:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on September 18, 2014, 21:13:27
Quote from: Ulrich on September 16, 2014, 10:19:48
Quote from: Matti on September 16, 2014, 10:02:07
He is telling the guy responsible for the on stage sound to raise the drums volume on his monitors, as the rhythm section is really important in a song with a lot of swing in it. This, btw, is common behaviour for a lot of bands while they play live - interacting with their roadies to get the sound right.

You hit the nail on the head here. Anyone can see the same thing happen in older Cure videos (with or without Jason)!

Please show me an older video where Robert complains about his drummer's (Lol, Andy or Boris) sound or sound level on stage, please as I've watched lots and lots of videos and never stumble upon one of those. Of course I haven't seen all of the video bootlegs around, so that would be new to me.

Quote from: Ulrich on September 16, 2014, 10:19:48
On stage, hardly anybody would tell a drummer to play louder when they're hearing the drums over the monitors...

You've made me remind that back in 1992, I purchased a Guitar Player or Guitar World magazine where Robert was interviewed and he revealed that the sound level on stage was dictated by the volume of the acoustic drumset (mic'd of course!).
So, back in the golden years, the drums were first volume-wise and then the other instruments' levels were adjusted.

But nowadays it doesn't happen, as we all know that Jason's drums are kinda buried in the mix (studio and live) and all we can hear are his famous tiny cardboard box drum sound. On top of that let's add that Jason is not a natural hard hitting drummer and even on top of that, he plays less deeper drums than Boris or Andy.

With these facts, it's understandable that Robert can request the sound tech or the drummer, to rise their levels.


Quote from: Ulrich on September 16, 2014, 10:19:48
Well I guess, sadly, such assumptions are what happens when you view yt-vids only with one single thing (drums) in mind. "Obsessive", as someone already pointed out.  :roll:

But it happens too that when you just watch yt videos just staring at Robert's face and just hearing his voice, you don't notice anything else. And most of the time those missed things can spice up your overall fan experience too.

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on September 19, 2014, 10:15:19
Quote from: patitodark on September 18, 2014, 21:13:27
Quote from: Matti on September 16, 2014, 10:02:07
interacting with their roadies to get the sound right.

Please show me an older video where Robert complains about his drummer's

Please re-read the post by Matti I've replied to. I wasn't talking about drummers at all...
You obviously watch enough videos to find one yourself in which Robert (or other musicians) wave (or point or nod) at their sound (wo)men to fix something...

Quote from: patitodark on September 18, 2014, 21:13:27
You've made me remind that back in 1992, I purchased a Guitar Player or Guitar World magazine where Robert was interviewed and he revealed that the sound level on stage was dictated by the volume of the acoustic drumset (mic'd of course!).

I made you remind. Aha.
Yes, drums are pretty loud (depending on the room etc), so yes the sound level onstage will be dictated by them. Always been like this, you do know a little bit about music, don't you? I knew this and wouldn't need a Robert interview to learn about this. Go out a bit and watch bands play, then you'll know how things work.

Please bear in mind that the sound outside (audience) is always different to the sound for the musicians (on stage). Which is why bands often have two people mixing the sound (one for the PA, one for the monitors on stage)!

Quote from: patitodark on September 18, 2014, 21:13:27
With these facts, it's understandable that Robert can request the sound tech or the drummer, to rise their levels.

Pure speculation, we don't know exactly what Robert requested there.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Matti on September 19, 2014, 11:11:23
Quote from: patitodark on September 18, 2014, 21:13:27
(...) back in 1992, I purchased a Guitar Player or Guitar World magazine where Robert was interviewed and he revealed that the sound level on stage was dictated by the volume of the acoustic drumset (mic'd of course!).

You mean this one (http://www.musicfanclubs.org/cure/press/I10.html), right? "The Cure's stage volume has always been based on the acoustic volume of the drum kit."
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on September 22, 2014, 10:36:12
So the beautiful "Cut Here" is played for the first time in twelve years and cymbals are added to the intro...

The Cure - Cut Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Xahjr00cY#)

"Cut Here" in Denver

https://vimeo.com/106743643 (https://vimeo.com/106743643)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dmscheuer on September 22, 2014, 16:43:11
The cymbals/toms in the beginning of songs are entirely because of the use of backing tracks. For some reason Robert decided he wanted to use backing tracks over the last dunno how many years for the live shows.

Jason has a click count-off in his monitors, he then counts the band in and plays during usually drum-free intros and middles of songs to keep the rest of the crew in sync with the backing tracks. It's unfortunate because it means every performance is cookie-cutter, it allows for no spontaneity or creativity.

But I don't know that we can pin this on Jason  :P
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on September 23, 2014, 10:00:21
Quote from: dmscheuer on September 22, 2014, 16:43:11
The cymbals/toms in the beginning of songs are entirely because of the use of backing tracks. For some reason Robert decided he wanted to use backing tracks over the last dunno how many years for the live shows.

hmmm maybe I am missing something but I don't hear any backing tracks here

THE CURE - secrets - London - Reflections / seventeen seconds - 15.11.2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKHdLQAp5uQ#ws)

however, cymbals are added at the beginning of the song. and don't get my wrong, aside of that I like Jason's drumming on this particular song.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dmscheuer on September 24, 2014, 07:01:39
Well, maybe it's just for consistancy? There may not be backing tracks on some songs, but there is no doubt Jason is playing along to a click track, which is why he 'needs' to play during what are traditionally non-drum parts of songs - to keep the rest of the band in sync.

This may have nearly alway been the case since BF was done with drum loops ( sometimes with, sometimes without acoustic drums). But I ask you to show me the same song played any differently over the last (?) 15 years... but I don't think there has been one 'A Forest' 1992 type song since Jason has been playing the drums. At least not captured on video, and that says a lot since the advances in smart phones making recording live performances much much easier.


Every single performance is note for note the same. And again - this is NOT a dig on Jason. I'm 99.99% sure he does not call the shots whether the songs should be played to a click track or they shouldn't. I guess we are moving beyond the 'Jason' issue and further into the issue as to why RS decided to 'call it in' on these festival shows.

However, back to the Jason question - as a person who has played the drums for 36 years, I still don't "understand" and cannot "explain" what Jason plays during many recordings. The fills, in laymans terms, do not make sense.

With live performances, he has an obnoxious love affair with hitting crash cymbals where it is not appropriate. His interpretations of his predecessors patterns are poor. And these drum patterns have a big part of what made these songs loveable. 

I used to argue that perhaps it was the songwriting that was suffering, and the drum parts were secondary. However there are certain 'recent' songs that are stand out. Underneath The Stars, Anniversary. The Scream, A Perfect Blue Sky (yes this was just an RS vocal as opposed to a 'The Cure' recording, but it shows he is still capable of writing amazing songs) ... I only wonder what a certain other drummer might have played on some of those, as well as others....

*and yes I know that UTS was and expounded Uyea Sound - Jason even copped [redacted]'s original drum pattern.

Edit - I have been playing drums for 36 years, not 26
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on October 15, 2014, 19:17:33
On the Charlotte video RS is adjusting the tempo very slightly.  Jason would have control of the click track.  It happens a LOT during Pictures Of You even now.  That song is fairly delicate, some songs are like that, the tempo has to be spot-on or it's just a chore to play it.  Frank Zappa used to criticize drummers by suggesting they'd spent too long in the 'Petrified Forest of Boom-Boom-Bap'.  Funny.  Not implying anything about Jason there.  I like him just fine.  (but would still like to sink that crash cymbal down the Marianas Trench)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Josefyne on January 06, 2015, 00:07:45
Quote from: dmscheuer on September 24, 2014, 07:01:39
Every single performance is note for note the same. And again - this is NOT a dig on Jason. I'm 99.99% sure he does not call the shots whether the songs should be played to a click track or they shouldn't. I guess we are moving beyond the 'Jason' issue and further into the issue as to why RS decided to 'call it in' on these festival shows.

Sorry but to me it's indeed Jason's fault. As a pro musician ( and I guess he listens back to his performances) he must notice that many of the things he plays is totally WRONG! and he must make the necessary adjustments! ( like not overplaying the cymbals, playing the right drum patterns and specially the bass drum, not playing the SAME fu..king dah---dah-dah-bum fill in every fu...king song!

As most of us know by now, Jason has performed in studio for the last Marina and the Diamonds' album. So that lead me to think that

1) In his mind he is doing a great job with The Cure so he doesn't need to improve his playing with the band.

2) Definitely Jason threw in the towel and realized that he can't reach the musicianship level of Boris, Andy or even Lol ( who played with more vibe and passion than him ) and decided to look for side projects.


Quote from: dmscheuer on September 24, 2014, 07:01:39
However, back to the Jason question - as a person who has played the drums for 36 years, I still don't "understand" and cannot "explain" what Jason plays during many recordings. The fills, in laymans terms, do not make sense.
With live performances, he has an obnoxious love affair with hitting crash cymbals where it is not appropriate. His interpretations of his predecessors patterns are poor. And these drum patterns have a big part of what made these songs loveable.

The way Jason plays (tempo & feel) on those important and distinctive parts of a song are 99.9% of the time performed like only an amateur or a guy who didn't hear the song before, would play!

The Cure with Jason on the drum chair is a sad ending for a once great band.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on January 06, 2015, 15:18:58
Quote from: Josefyne on January 06, 2015, 00:07:45
2) Definitely Jason threw in the towel and realized that he can't reach the musicianship level of Boris, Andy or even Lol ( who played with more vibe and passion than him ) and decided to look for side projects

I have to disagree in part with this. I think Jason is better musician than Lol. I do think, however, that he is lacking of the passion expected in a drummer (or any other musician). I think this is the main problem (I wish I wouldn't write this because at the same time I think he is currently the most sympathetic Cure member, together with Reeves)

Anyway, as I said in another topic, I went to London to see The Cure but the two nights before I saw Slowdive and I saw how great his drummer (Simon Scott) was. He is probably one of the reasons why the band sounds so great live. He took a Slowdive song, "Golden Hair", to another level making it sound way more powerful than the original version, and you could see in his facial expression how he enjoyed what he was doing (see a video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTZhG9YSY_c#t=3m38s)). Sometimes I have the impression that Jason seems stressed/nervous.

Having said this, I don't see Jason leaving the band on his own, unless Robert would fire him (as he did a few years ago with Roger and Perry).  And I don't think this is going to happen.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Josefyne on January 06, 2015, 20:15:44
Hi Dsanchez and thank you for the welcome in the other thread!

Quote from: dsanchez on January 06, 2015, 15:18:58
Quote from: Josefyne on January 06, 2015, 00:07:45
2) Definitely Jason threw in the towel and realized that he can't reach the musicianship level of Boris, Andy or even Lol ( who played with more vibe and passion than him ) and decided to look for side projects

I have to disagree in part with this. I think Jason is better musician than Lol. I do think, however, that he is lacking of the passion expected in a drummer (or any other musician). I think this is the main problem (I wish I wouldn't write this because at the same time I think he is currently the most sympathetic Cure member, together with Reeves)

Lol rocks playing All cats are grey in live. Also Primary ,Play for Today (Jason still can't get the flow of this song and throws some of the most disgusting drum fills in) and most -not all- of the songs from his era. On the other hand, yes... Jason can keep up with the metronome in his ears and play more "in the pocket" -maybe- but fails whenever he plays drum fills or cymbals! (that means, whenever he tries to do his thing). His 'contribution' in that regard is 99% of the time disgusting, out of place and out of musical style.

So if we compare musicianship, skills, commitment, attitude, overplaying, timing, musical taste, use of backing tracks, mistakes in live, live & studio sound, stamina, speed, passion, vibe, at the end -to me- the winner is... Lawrence Tolhurst.

Quote from: dsanchez on January 06, 2015, 15:18:58
Anyway, as I said in another topic, I went to London to see The Cure but the two nights before I saw Slowdive and I saw how great his drummer (Simon Scott) was. He is probably one of the reasons why the band sounds so great live. He took a Slowdive song, "Golden Hair", to another level making it sound way more powerful than the original version, and you could see in his facial expression how he enjoyed what he was doing (see a video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTZhG9YSY_c#t=3m38s)). Sometimes I have the impression that Jason looks stressed/nervous.

Wow, thanks for the video. Wonderful performance.

Quote from: dsanchez on January 06, 2015, 15:18:58
Having said this, I don't see Jason leaving the band on his own, unless Robert would fire him (as he did a few years ago with Roger and Perry).  And I don't think this is going to happen.

Unfortunately and sadly...

Let's pray he stays with Marina, forever.

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on January 07, 2015, 13:18:59
Quote from: Josefyne on January 06, 2015, 00:07:45
As most of us know by now, Jason has performed in studio for the last Marina and the Diamonds' album. So that lead me to think that

1) In his mind he is doing a great job with The Cure so he doesn't need to improve his playing with the band.

2) Definitely Jason threw in the towel and realized that he can't reach the musicianship level of Boris, Andy or even Lol ( who played with more vibe and passion than him ) and decided to look for side projects.

1) Maybe he does, but this has nothing to do with him performing on the Marina & the Diamonds' album! The latter has more to do with Marina & the Diamonds thinking that his drumming would fit for their album...

2) Probably not. Many musicians in bands do "side projects". (Reeves has many projects of his own and collaborations, as has Roger!)
For me, it's what mucisians do: making music. No matter what, when or with whom. Music is what it should be about for them.
The Cure should do a bit more in the recording studio, maybe then those members wouldn't have time for many side projects...  :roll:

Quote from: dsanchez on January 06, 2015, 15:18:58
He took a Slowdive song, "Golden Hair", to another level making it sound way more powerful than the original version

Tut tut, that is a Syd Barrett (founder of Pink Floyd) song, only covered by Slowdive.

Quote from: dsanchez on January 06, 2015, 15:18:58
Having said this, I don't see Jason leaving the band on his own, unless Robert would fire him (as he did a few years ago with Roger and Perry).  And I don't think this is going to happen.

You never know. When anything like that happened (e.g. Porl & Boris leaving, Roger & Perry sacked) in the past, it always was totally unexpected to me.  :o
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on January 08, 2015, 17:51:10
Quote from: Ulrich on January 07, 2015, 13:18:59
"... has more to do with Marina & the Diamonds thinking that his drumming would fit for their album..."

Sure! his drumming is more for Marina than for The Cure.


Quote from: Ulrich on January 07, 2015, 13:18:59
The Cure should do a bit more in the recording studio, maybe then those members wouldn't have time for many side projects...  :roll:

That is something most of us want!... but maybe some members should stay at home focusing on improving his performance with the band.

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on January 08, 2015, 18:06:06
Quote from: Ulrich on September 19, 2014, 10:15:19
yes the sound level onstage will be dictated by them. Always been like this, you do know a little bit about music, don't you? I knew this and wouldn't need a Robert interview to learn about this. Go out a bit and watch bands play, then you'll know how things work.

Hahaha sorry but I can't help but laugh...  :lol:
No comments Mr. Know-it-all  ;)

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on January 08, 2015, 18:26:06
Quote from: patitodark on January 08, 2015, 18:06:06
Quote from: Ulrich on September 19, 2014, 10:15:19
yes the sound level onstage will be dictated by them. Always been like this, you do know a little bit about music, don't you? I knew this and wouldn't need a Robert interview to learn about this. Go out a bit and watch bands play, then you'll know how things work.
Hahaha sorry but I can't help but laugh...  :lol:
No comments Mr. Know-it-all  ;)
@patitodark, take it easy ;)

To be objective, @Ulrich is right in this. In the video you mentioned earlier (http://curefans.com/solo-projects/jason-cooper-a-study-of-his-style/msg761109/#msg761109), Robert was not communicating with Jason but rather with the soundman located in the other side of stage (on Roger's left side). He is asking him to turn up the volume. This video of "Lovecats" provides another view where this can be seen better (00:20 and 00:29):

The Cure - The Love Cats - Royal Albert Hall London November 15th, 2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fVnlf6OfOQ#ws)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on January 08, 2015, 18:32:49
Quote from: Ulrich on January 07, 2015, 13:18:59
You never know. When anything like that happened (e.g. Porl & Boris leaving, Roger & Perry sacked) in the past, it always was totally unexpected to me.  :o
If that unlikely event would happen, who would you call as replacement? (supposing Boris would be unable to do it). If anyone want to answer to this one, better do it in this topic (http://curefans.com/cure-things/the-cure's-next-drummer/).
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on January 08, 2015, 18:43:12
Quote from: dsanchez on January 08, 2015, 18:26:06
To be objective, @Ulrich is right in this. In the video you mentioned earlier, Robert was not communicating with Jason but rather with the soundman located in the other side of stage (on Roger's left side). He is asking him to turn up the volume.

Thank you. For one time only, I was right.  :lol:

It is the "curse" of this thread, that each and every video/audio seems to be viewed with only Jason in mind, completely forgetting any other possibilites (roadies, soundmen etc.)!  :(
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: omar on January 09, 2015, 07:16:44
yes I think that Robert did that gesture due to he couldn´t hear the drum  at the moment the piano (synth..) started to play the classical melody of the song , the drum is so important to take the rhythm when you play a song ...live) 

who is patitodark lol :)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on April 25, 2015, 05:10:08
Well, not exactly a birthday present but let us realize how essential Boris' been to The Cure.

[Edit: please note this post has been moved from another topic - nothing to do with Boris' birthday.]

This sounds like most live videos of JLH, but here it is recorded in studio by Jason.

According to the description:

"During the rehearsals for the summer festivals in 2012, Jason Cooper from The Cure came to Snap Studios to rehearse the 30 something songs that the band played on those days.

In one of the conversations with one of our engineers, Cooper talked about Just Like Heaven and how he felt that the drums were a little off and that he probably had a better idea for it.

So Cure fans, here you have the mega hit Just Like Heaven played by Jason Toop Cooper. Enjoy!

(The recording made directly from the mixing board)
"

Personally I hate this kind of playing and if he was the drummer during 1985-1992, I strongly believe The Cure wouldn't be a success as it was during those years.


https://youtu.be/sut8Vn0XdOU (https://youtu.be/sut8Vn0XdOU)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on June 06, 2015, 06:18:20
'Golden Hair' is Syd setting a James Joyce poem to music.  Good stuff.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on May 22, 2016, 20:57:50
Quote from: dmscheuer on September 24, 2014, 07:01:39
With live performances, he has an obnoxious love affair with hitting crash cymbals where it is not appropriate.
like in "Strange Day". The LONELY guitar solo is the essential part of this song and now cymbals are added on top of it. Why? I don't know:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew91Vbyyj2Y

notice the difference in 1991

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7X1PuYlgEE
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on May 23, 2016, 20:51:09
You're right about the crash cymbals, I don't understand it either.  What really strikes me when listening to or watching the first shows of the tour is how Reeves' heavy-handed approach has been reined in a bit.  Whatever they did over the last year and a half to better integrate Reeves' playing into the overall sound has really paid off.  They're really sounding like The Cure again, and they've regained a bit of their seriousness and are playing some of the darker material at long last.  I have to just forget about everything from the summer festivals in 2012 until 2014's Christmas shows.  A 'happy' Cure doesn't work for me.  Makes me even more disappointed about being unable to get tickets for any of the three shows they're playing up here in this corner of the U.S.A.  Looks like there might be a next time though...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on May 25, 2016, 09:14:54
Quote from: dsanchez on May 22, 2016, 20:57:50
like in "Strange Day". The LONELY guitar solo is the essential part of this song and now cymbals are added on top of it. Why? I don't know:

It seems that the extra cymbals at the beginning of ALL songs and in places when cymbals are not supposed to be played (like in Strange Day), is because Jason has to let the other guys know where the click (of the metronome) is. In this way his added tambourines, extra percussion sounds and what not, are in time with his -robotic- playing.

Jason even plays cymbals at the beginning of THE EXPLODING BOY! and it seems that there are no added percussion sounds for it. But I should be wrong as I know Jason loves to have extra help with pre-recorded stuff.

Have you notice how he adds a crash cymbal during the chorus of This Twilight garden?????
I immediately went to hear the original one and of course, Boris never ever played that extra cymbal that sounds out of rhythm.

Why Jason always does something to ruin the songs????
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on May 25, 2016, 16:46:25
In my humble opinion, a good song is a good song and can only be "ruined" by a drummer if he/she would play completely the wrong rhythm! I didn't have the feeling that any songs were "ruined" at the Cure concerts I went to (and if I'd had that feeling, I certainly wouldn't go to any more)...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on May 25, 2016, 19:34:34
Spoil? harm? damage? hurt?

A night like this and All I want are two more songs with extra hi-hats and cymbals in the intro.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on May 26, 2016, 02:24:10
Obviously you're right about all the added percussion, I guess it just doesn't bother me all that much.  I've always thought Jason was good, if a bit heavy-handed at times.  As I've said, I'd dearly love to take that crash cymbal and sink it somewhere deep...but he'd probably just buy another one.  On a side note, I'm fascinated that I was docked a karma point for saying something nice about the band.  Maybe it was just in the wrong place?  In which case I'm about to be docked another...  If you want to see two almost 'heroic' (I hate that word) performances by Jason, one is 'Out Of This World' with the brushes on 'Trilogy' and 'Never Enough' on 'Paris 2008'.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on May 26, 2016, 10:44:02
Quote from: cheyler on May 26, 2016, 02:24:10
On a side note, I'm fascinated that I was docked a karma point for saying something nice about the band.

Interesting. I've never been able to find out from which posts "karma points" came or went. How did you? (From what I gathered, it might be from an older post as well as a newer one?)  :?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on June 03, 2016, 07:08:55
Quote from: Ulrich on June 14, 2016, 11:25:33
Quote from: dmscheuer on June 13, 2016, 23:58:00
It's for the band members, lights, crew - anyone involved I guess.

Do you honestly think they DON'T play along to a click and pre-recorded tracks?

No, but I don't really care much. It seems very important to you and patito, as you go on and on about it, like a broken record...

The broken record spins again:

In The Hanging Garden, there is a tambourine that Jason doesn't play but is pre-recorded in the backing track.

https://youtu.be/UGtuho2Ca7Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGtuho2Ca7Y
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on June 03, 2016, 17:57:08
Doesn't look like Jason is playing much at all on Out Of This World.  Reeves is doing Perry's part pretty well, only time I don't begrudge him that whammy bar of his.  Porl on Paris 2008, really hoping that makes it out on DVD some day, the hour-long version is great, but...more more more!  The '05-'09 quartet line-up is my favorite of all Cure line-ups.  Highly maneuverable, as they say.  Never seen the 2007 video, where was it taped?  Thanks for the information and the links.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dmscheuer on June 09, 2016, 00:59:45
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/l/t1.0-9/13413561_1355853484429964_3956980148158795031_n.jpg?oh=35fc495b0483d24f12d39b02e7f96e6f&oe=580EC56F)

See them numbers next to the titles? Thats the tempo for the click track and pre-recorded stuff  :(

Oh well...

I'm still gonna see them in NY, however not as excited as others seem to be
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on June 11, 2016, 10:36:53
In this vid, at some points, you can see quite clearly what JC does with his hands (& feet)... Not too bad for my ears/eyes. (Maybe it's because he'd already played on the studio version.)
https://vimeo.com/170260208

Quote from: dmscheuer on June 09, 2016, 00:59:45
See them numbers next to the titles? Thats the tempo for the click track ...

Is it really? Or is it the "beats per minute", e.g. for the lighting guys to know the tempo?  :?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dmscheuer on June 11, 2016, 23:20:39
Quote from: Ulrich on June 11, 2016, 10:36:53
Is it really? Or is it the "beats per minute", e.g. for the lighting guys to know the tempo?  :?
:D

1) The video you posted is set to private, can't see it here in the US

2) Uh, the 'tempo' and 'beats per minute' are the same thing. Have a very very hard time thinking the light guys need info like "RS 12 string+flute" or "JC=hotdrods"
That last one is awful. Hotrods are absolutely terrible live.

Annnnnd also - the numbers next to the tempo (BPM) is the exact length of the song (min:sec)
Everything is micromanaged to the last second. How long each song is, how long each set is..... No improvisation. Cookie-cutter if you will.

As I've said in previous posts, I don't know who makes the decision for pre-recorded tracks to play along with. They've not had to do it not too long ago. Why now? Why all of the time? It's kinda, pun maybe intended, depressing.


EDIT: ok was able to see the Jupiter Crash video. Again with the brushes/hotrods..... can't hear much of what he's actually playing when they're used live. But watching it, that might be a blessing. More cymbal mania in the intro, where on WMS there are zero drums. Why, you might ask? Coz it's all played to a click track that JC hears in his monitor. He needs to 'tell' everyone else where they are in the pre-mapped out song to make sure the pre-recorded stuff plays back at the correct spot. So the extra guitar parts that may come in on the chorus actually come in on the chorus and not before or after. Or out of time with the band. And also why they know exactly how long each song is, and how long each set is.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on June 12, 2016, 10:16:21
Quote from: dmscheuer on June 11, 2016, 23:20:39
Have a very very hard time thinking the light guys need info like "RS 12 string+flute" or "JC=hotdrods"

So who is it for then? Roadies (which is what I meant with "for example light guys")?
Where did you find that list? Why not give that info when you post it?  :?

Must look up what a "hotrod" is. But not today, kinda busy with other things...

Quote from: dmscheuer on June 11, 2016, 23:20:39
As I've said in previous posts, I don't know who makes the decision for pre-recorded tracks to play along with.

Neither do I.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dmscheuer on June 13, 2016, 23:58:00
Quote from: Ulrich on June 12, 2016, 10:16:21
Quote from: dmscheuer on June 11, 2016, 23:20:39
Have a very very hard time thinking the light guys need info like "RS 12 string+flute" or "JC=hotdrods"

So who is it for then? Roadies (which is what I meant with "for example light guys")?
Where did you find that list? Why not give that info when you post it?  :?

Must look up what a "hotrod" is. But not today, kinda busy with other things...

Quote from: dmscheuer on June 11, 2016, 23:20:39
As I've said in previous posts, I don't know who makes the decision for pre-recorded tracks to play along with.

Neither do I.

It's for the band members, lights, crew - anyone involved I guess.

Chain of Flowers:
https://twitter.com/CraigatCoF/status/740415737685250049

Do you honestly think they DON'T play along to a click and pre-recorded tracks? Or is this just more apologist arguments? lol

Have you looked up hotrods yet? If not here ya go Ulrich:
(http://www.promark.com/resources/jdcpm/images/products/pm_prod_H-RODS_main_2.jpg)
http://www.promark.com/pmProductDetail.Page?ActiveID=3917&productid=171&productname=H_RODS_Hot_Rods
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: cheyler on June 14, 2016, 01:36:20
Makes me nostalgic for the days of Boris' handwritten setlists.  A lot of this is due to the rigid lighting cues and video screens I suppose, but it takes some of the fun out of it for the fans if we know the whole set and even the encores are mapped out entirely ahead of time.  Can't be much fun for Jason either, not much of a challenge as a drummer, unless you're suggesting (as some have) that he is such a poor drummer that he requires a click track to keep time for him.  But I don't think you're suggesting that.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on June 14, 2016, 11:25:33
Quote from: dmscheuer on June 13, 2016, 23:58:00
It's for the band members, lights, crew - anyone involved I guess.

Do you honestly think they DON'T play along to a click and pre-recorded tracks?

No, but I don't really care much. It seems very important to you and patito, as you go on and on about it, like a broken record...

Quote from: dmscheuer on June 13, 2016, 23:58:00
Have you looked up hotrods yet? If not here ya go ...

Thanks very much for the link!  :)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: lostflower4 on June 19, 2016, 10:14:57
Quote from: dmscheuer on June 09, 2016, 00:59:45
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/l/t1.0-9/13413561_1355853484429964_3956980148158795031_n.jpg?oh=35fc495b0483d24f12d39b02e7f96e6f&oe=580EC56F)

See them numbers next to the titles? Thats the tempo for the click track and pre-recorded stuff  :(

Oh well...

I'm still gonna see them in NY, however not as excited as others seem to be

Yeah, those ever-unchanging fixed tempos (Robert apparently has an OCD issue in choosing even numbers of 5, which is silly to me... Yes, I know if you always practice a song at the exact same tempo it makes it easier, but Boris & co. had the freedom to change up tempos based on feel (something Jason has very little of in terms of rock-n-roll rhythms...)

I'm just going to say it, I saw Jason twice this month, and the dude is so fried in the head from his "habits" let's just say...
HE was hitting cymbals half a beat early, have a beat late, and was just ALL OVER THE MAP in his timing. He can't even keep a steady 1-2-3-4 backbeat for more than 1I've been to lots of "big name" shows and the only equally poor drummer I've seen (both professional and small-time bands) was Mogwai's replacement drummer
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on June 19, 2016, 10:53:22
Quote from: lostflower4 on June 19, 2016, 10:14:57
I saw Jason twice this month

With the Cure I guess? It's a pity you didn't find time to write a gig review for this forum.  :(
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: lostflower4 on June 19, 2016, 11:54:07
Jason can't play in time to save his life anymore... He could keep "acceptably" decent time when he joined the band, but I always found his style to be weak, unspired, and lacking in feeling - he's simply not a "natural" what comes to being a great percussionist.

Oddly enough, I think the rest of the band is sounding better than they have since the early '90s, like they really started taking it seriously again. But Jason just continues to get coked out of his mind (just look at him if you don't believe me, he's a mess), and Robert doesn't seem to give a shit...

I will just say it, Jason is a borderline mediocre drummer (I think "mediocre" is a bit of a generous term. I meant, let's just say it:  If Jason were to leave the Cure, he would never find another group of such status, just as Perry never will due to their lack og talent relative to Robert, Simon, Roger, Reeves, and many who came before...

I have played with numerous random "amateur" drummers over the years, some still of school-age who put Jason to shame, if only on the account that they can keep a solid beat for over a minute. Jason has had something like 21 years to prove himself and people are still saying, "hey, he's getting better even though it's more likely people "getting used" to him or learning to turn him out, which I've gotten pretty good at. But this dimishes the band as a whole, unfortunately.

And his live playing is a joke these days if you let yourself see/hear it - you would think the other members would eventually get sick of playing with such a poor drummer, but I suspect in live shows they have him turned off in their monitors (just like they did with Perry, who would throw everyone else in the band off with his also erratic and/or bad playing.

Virtually every drummer in any band I can think of, ever - whether I like the music or not - has a better drummer than the Cure does now. It's like a sick joke that's been going on for some 23-24 years too long...   :smth011

What did we do, Robert?  :P
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: lostflower4 on June 19, 2016, 12:26:38
Quote from: Ulrich on June 19, 2016, 10:53:22
Quote from: lostflower4 on June 19, 2016, 10:14:57
I saw Jason twice this month

With the Cure I guess? It's a pity you didn't find time to write a gig review for this forum.  :(

Yeah, he was with the Cure that night. I know he's a highly in-demand session drummer throughout the world (hahaha!), but yes the Cure.

I have my own fond memories of the shows I saw, in which Robert, Simon, Reeves, and Roger really impressed the hell out of me by doing so well and helping keep my focus off of of the spastic crackhead drummer (yes, it's a bit twisted but I am a longtime fan and try my best to focus on the positive.

But there IS a huuuuge talent-less and strung out ELEPHANT in the room (or in the band, to be exact). Maybe someday something will improve in this regard, but the 22 year wait has been rather excruciating if I'm being honest.

Sorry, I like to see one of my favorite bands in top form, and I really just blame Jason for being so poor at what he does. If I was at his level I would be ashamed and part ways with a band that deserved better.

(Here's hoping something happens and the Cure gets at least one more (good) drummer in their career...)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on June 19, 2016, 14:22:18
Quote from: lostflower4 on June 19, 2016, 12:26:38
Yeah, he was with the Cure that night.

I have my own fond memories of the shows I saw, in which Robert, Simon, Reeves, and Roger really impressed the hell out of me by doing so well

Thanks. Here is the section of the forums for the live shows, reviews etc., just in case you want to report more about those 2 gigs (instead of focussing on the one aspect you did not like):
http://curefans.com/upcoming-shows/
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on June 22, 2016, 07:24:22
Quote from: Ulrich on June 11, 2016, 10:36:53
In this vid, at some points, you can see quite clearly what JC does with his hands (& feet)... Not too bad for my ears/eyes. (Maybe it's because he'd already played on the studio version.)

In Jupiter Crash, Jason does play everything. He recorded this one for the studio version.
BUT by now we all know that that wonderful pattern was demoed by Boris. Jason just copied it.


Quote from: dmscheuer on June 11, 2016, 23:20:39
Hotrods are absolutely terrible live.

Specially in The Caterpillar!!! That mess-intro is awful!

Quote from: dmscheuer on June 11, 2016, 23:20:39
More cymbal mania in the intro, where on WMS there are zero drums. Why, you might ask? Coz it's all played to a click track that JC hears in his monitor. He needs to 'tell' everyone else where they are in the pre-mapped out song to make sure the pre-recorded stuff plays back at the correct spot. So the extra guitar parts that may come in on the chorus actually come in on the chorus and not before or after. Or out of time with the band. And also why they know exactly how long each song is, and how long each set is.

In that pre-recorded stuff that Jason is hearing, there is a cue, like a beep or something that alerts him that the song is about to finish.

Quote from: lostflower4 on June 19, 2016, 12:26:38
...But there IS a huuuuge talent-less and strung out ELEPHANT in the room (or in the band, to be exact). Maybe someday something will improve in this regard, but the 22 year wait has been rather excruciating if I'm being honest.

A few days ago, I friend of mine went to see the band live in Montreal. He knew The Cure is my favorite band and during the show he sent me a couple of photos showing me the great light work.

A day after, I asked him what were his impressions of the show... it was his first Cure show and he liked it. He said Robert's loud and clear voice is what impressed him the most. He also asked me WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE DRUMMER. What is wrong with him?  For my friend, Jason was like a lifeless guy with no emotion towards the music and/or his instrument...


Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: MeltingMan on June 22, 2016, 11:11:12
Quote from: lostflower4 on June 19, 2016, 11:54:07
I will just say it, Jason is a borderline mediocre drummer (I think "mediocre" is a bit of a generous term. I meant, let's just say it:  If Jason were to leave the Cure, he would never find another group of such status, just as Perry never will due to their lack og talent relative to Robert, Simon, Roger, Reeves, and many who came before...
I picked out The Hanging Garden video from last Sunday,
only to have a relevant impression and it was, as usual, a
close-up from Robert, at least 90% of the time and not very
instructive. The mood in the band is so well that I can't imagine
a circumstance which favour Jason's booting out, unless the rest
of the group refuse to play with him any longer and that is unlikely.
He is so 'mediocre' to cover a wide range of Cure songs, unlike his
predecessors. I watched him during one of the London shows 2014
and nothing was wrong, not a minute...
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: BiscuityBoyle on June 23, 2016, 04:23:00
I'm no specialist in drumming technique but that he's musically humdrum and unimaginative, compared to Boris or Andy, who delivered really interesting patterns and thought in long lines, seems unarguable. A drummer for a band like The Cure should be a musician, which he plainly isn't.

Jason isn't the only thing that went wrong with The Cure since their heyday, that's for sure. But having him must've limited Robert's palette as a songwriter: how are you supposed to come up with stuff like Snakepit or The Wailing Wall or If Only Tonight We Could Sleep with a drummer as terminally boring as him? 
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: MeltingMan on June 23, 2016, 19:35:22
Quote from: BiscuityBoyle on June 23, 2016, 04:23:00A drummer for a band like The Cure should be a musician, which he plainly isn't. 
What then? :?
Looking back I think the decision to keep him in the group
was strategic right because it enabled Robert to implement
an open, rotating system for 'Cure musicians' in general and
to avoid the many line-up changes in the past for whatever
reasons. Otherwise we would have encountered never-ending
instability and a quickened decline of The Cure in the Nineties.
You can't reinvent the wheel.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on June 24, 2016, 09:07:26
Quote from: MeltingMan on June 23, 2016, 19:35:22
Quote from: BiscuityBoyle on June 23, 2016, 04:23:00A drummer for a band like The Cure should be a musician, which he plainly isn't. 
What then? :?

A time-keeper.  ;)
Well, a (good) drummer once said to me: "I'm not a musician, I'm just a drummer".  :lol:

Many band members make an excuse to leave the room, if a drummer says "I've written a song".  :-D
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: BiscuityBoyle on June 24, 2016, 10:02:45
Quote from: MeltingMan on June 23, 2016, 19:35:22
Quote from: BiscuityBoyle on June 23, 2016, 04:23:00A drummer for a band like The Cure should be a musician, which he plainly isn't. 
What then? :?

http://curefans.com/other-artists-48/

From Bach to Cypress Hill, from Debussy to Fella Kuti to Micachu and on and on ad infinitum. The Cure were a genuinely great band in their day yet today they are about as interesting and relevant as Nazareth or Uriah Heep. Tant pis, there are many others.

QuoteA time-keeper.

Not good enough, not for a band with a back catalogue as ridiculously diverse, ambitious and imaginative.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on June 27, 2016, 22:42:42
Robert had to wait until Jason starts his click track and pre-recorded sh**... watch Robert's reaction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIks1KET-3Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jUv3f5Faik

https://vimeo.com/170341295
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on June 28, 2016, 08:49:51
Quote from: patitodark on June 27, 2016, 22:42:42
Robert had to wait until Jason starts ...

Did he? According to this post (and the following) it is the roadies/technicians who start them?  :?
http://curefans.com/solo-projects/jason-cooper-a-study-of-his-style/msg763535/#msg763535
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Matti on June 28, 2016, 13:16:39
Quote from: patitodark on June 27, 2016, 22:42:42watch Robert's reaction

I did. And I saw Robert in a good mood, smirking, almost laughing. What are you getting at?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on June 28, 2016, 14:57:03
Quote from: Matti on June 28, 2016, 13:16:39
I did. And I saw Robert in a good mood, smirking, almost laughing. What are you getting at?

He is (mockingly) shaking his head.

"...and the smile, and the shake of his head..."  ;)
Title: Re: Jason Cooper
Post by: Quadpus72 on July 09, 2016, 00:42:31
I miss Boris. I've never warmed to Jason's playing.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Fdipper on April 13, 2019, 18:51:24
Did You guys know that there is a demo from 2004 called Jason#3?
It was the demo of Never.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on May 01, 2019, 13:18:30
Just reviewed this video from 2013 (as The Cure is returning there this year) and noticed the following:
Overuse of cymbals (00:50 - 01:05)


No cymbals at all in the intro. The song is more powerful because nothing is 'warning you' of what's coming next..


:pensive:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on October 29, 2019, 08:40:01
Jason appears in an article titled "10 rejected replacements":

QuoteThere are entire forums dedicated to (mostly unfavorably) comparing current Cure drummer Jason Cooper to his predecessor, Boris Williams. Incredible, given that Williams left the band 25 years ago and was neither a principal songwriter nor original member. A cluster of debatably coincidental factors appear to fuel Cure fans' huge nostalgia for Williams. Firstly, his time in the band coincided with the Cure's commercial apex, whereas Cooper's first contribution was to Wild Mood Swings, which sold less than any Williams-era effort. Swings also marked the end of the group's long relationship with producer David M. Allen, and a resulting change in drum sounds which irked many listeners. Additionally damning Cooper is the Cure's increased use of programmed drum loops live, to the dismay of diehards, since his arrival.

https://www.laweekly.com/ten-rejected-replacements/
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on July 10, 2023, 05:38:56
As far as I can tell, the sound of the drums, the way of (over)playing drums & cymbals is totally Jason... (watch it on Youtube as for copyright reasons it's not allowed to be embedded).

The video is called "The Cure - Just Like Heaven - Jason Cooper"
(https://youtu.be/sut8Vn0XdOU)

(https://images4.imagebam.com/5a/d9/1c/MEMPCMI_o.jpg)

Audio here: https://whyp.it/tracks/108946/jason-on-jlh?token=DefFI

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on July 10, 2023, 11:38:54
Quote from: patitodark on July 10, 2023, 05:38:56The video is called "The Cure - Just Like Heaven - Jason Cooper"
(https://youtu.be/sut8Vn0XdOU)

Is that real? This is what was played at the actual Festival 2012 Tour...

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on July 10, 2023, 13:21:01
Quote from: dsanchez on July 10, 2023, 11:38:54Is that real?

 :lol:

My guess is: no.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on July 12, 2023, 21:06:25
Quote from: dsanchez on July 10, 2023, 11:38:54Is that real? This is what was played at the actual Festival 2012 Tour...


I don't know really... the drumfills and playing style sounds like Jason to me though, turning "Just like heaven" into "Just like hell"  :lol:
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Matti on July 12, 2023, 21:15:17
Oh come on - why on earth should a recording studio open a YT channel without any further info and upload a single video that serves as a Jason Cooper hater honeypot (see the comments)?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on July 13, 2023, 09:41:18
Jason has played on JLH from 1995 up to 2011, so WHY should he change the drum patterns in a rehearsal in 2012? dscanchez already posted a video of how he played it live that year!!

Quote from: Matti on July 12, 2023, 21:15:17Oh come on - why on earth should a recording studio open a YT channel without any further info ...
Exactly. It's quite clearly a fake and it's infuriating how some people are unable (or unwilling) to notice this! :pouting-face
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on July 13, 2023, 20:43:16
Here is J in action playing for a drumathon a couple of years ago to raise funds for mental health. Fast forward the following video to 2:25 IMO, it sounds almost like in the first video.

Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on July 14, 2023, 10:00:25
I am not registered at yt, but if anyone of you is, you might wanna report that fake vid.

Quote from: patitodark on July 13, 2023, 20:43:16Fast forward the following video to 2:25 IMO, it sounds almost like in the first video.

Does not sound like it to my ears.
So, what is your point...? Did you think the "fake" rehearsal video was made with this drum track?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on July 19, 2023, 06:59:06
Quote from: Ulrich on July 14, 2023, 10:00:25So, what is your point...? Did you think the "fake" rehearsal video was made with this drum track?

No. I said that it sounds 'almost like'. I never said it sounds 'the same'.
So, anyway I don't know if it is fake or not but the way the drummer is playing in the first video, sounds the way Jason usually plays JLH live (specially in the bridge part of the song, from 2:25 onwards).
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on July 19, 2023, 08:42:33
What exactly is your point? What about current live videos (the band just played a looong tour in'22 and '23)? Can't you analyse those? You only seem to post in this topic. Why? Are you a professional drum expert or just an amateur (like most of us)?

Quote from: patitodark on July 19, 2023, 06:59:06No. I said that it sounds 'almost like'. I never said it sounds 'the same'.
So, anyway I don't know if it is fake or not but the way the drummer is playing in the first video, sounds the way Jason usually plays JLH live (specially in the bridge part of the song, from 2:25 onwards).

Several people incl. the Admin have pointed out that Jason did not play JLH like it sounds in that alleged "rehearsal" video! You never replied to our questions "why" should he change it for one rehearsal in 2012?  :?
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: patitodark on July 19, 2023, 09:03:23
Quote from: Ulrich on July 19, 2023, 08:42:33You never replied to our questions "why" should he change it for a rehearsal in 2012?  :?

I didn't know the question was aimed to me but anyway I don't know the answer to your question (why would I?!!!). The video description implies that Jason wanted to try new ideas for the song and I know no further than that. Maybe you could find out more information by contacting the uploader.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on July 19, 2023, 09:15:09
If you read the posts, they are clearly aimed at you ("oh come on...")!

Quote from: patitodark on July 19, 2023, 09:03:23... implies that Jason wanted to try new ideas for the song and I know no further than that.

Does not sound credible to me (as already pointed out he'd played it literally for years at that point in time).

The only reason to contact the uploader would be to ask him to prove that he works at the rehearsal studio (and if he can't, one should ask him to take down that fake vid)!
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: dsanchez on July 19, 2023, 17:22:23
Quote from: patitodark on July 19, 2023, 06:59:06
Quote from: Ulrich on July 14, 2023, 10:00:25So, what is your point...? Did you think the "fake" rehearsal video was made with this drum track?

No. I said that it sounds 'almost like'. I never said it sounds 'the same'.
So, anyway I don't know if it is fake or not but the way the drummer is playing in the first video, sounds the way Jason usually plays JLH live (specially in the bridge part of the song, from 2:25 onwards).

I think Jason was adding these bits back in 2008, I highlighted that here (http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=5472.msg54721#msg54721). But the fact is that today, 2023, Jason is sticking to the essence of The Cure IMO and playing pretty well, so no complaints from my side.
Title: Re: Jason Cooper - A study of his style
Post by: Ulrich on July 20, 2023, 09:57:46
Quote from: dsanchez on July 19, 2023, 17:22:23the fact is that today, 2023, Jason is sticking to the essence of The Cure IMO and playing pretty well

Yeah, I admit I don't understand why someone comes up with (alleged) 2012 rehearsals, when we have lots of new(er) videos from the current tour '22 & '23! (And that person seems to know only one topic in this forum...)  :disappointed: