Jason Cooper - A study of his style

[MeltingMan]

@patitodark
I'm not concerned about the facts,naturally.I'm only concerned about,that Jason was already
"dismissed" by a (semi-)professional minority and some,possibly old-fashioned and part-time,cure
fans.Most of the fans,including me, have no idea about drumkits,microphones or even sound characteristics,but we  know,that Robert noticed the problem and he has the responsibility and,
last but not least,the confidence of many,if not all,fans.---

[dmscheuer]

@patitodark
I'm not concerned about the facts,naturally.I'm only concerned about,that Jason was already
"dismissed" by a (semi-)professional minority and some,possibly old-fashioned and part-time,cure
fans.Most of the fans,including me, have no idea about drumkits,microphones or even sound characteristics,but we  know,that Robert noticed the problem and he has the responsibility and,
last but not least,the confidence of many,if not all,fans.---

I'm sorry, but are you saying that you cannot tell that the drum sound is, well, LACKING, on Bestival ?!?

You may be 'tired' of the 'discussion', but I think anyone who has decent hearing can tell the difference between decent, appropriate drum sounds and what was released on Bestival. It's entirely possible that it is not Jason's doings/fault (see the Entreat 'remaster'). But it certainly doesn't help him or his supporters with respect to this 'discussion'.

[Ulrich]

You may be 'tired' of the 'discussion', but I think anyone who has decent hearing can tell the difference between decent, appropriate drum sounds and what was released on Bestival.

Yes, but we've discussed this many times now - it tends to get boring when the same issue is brought up again and again.
Let's not forget that Bestival was a "quick shot", being released quite "soon" after the show happened AND it was for charity! Sadly this aspect is hardly ever considered by "fans". :(

In 2011 I wrote this about it (and I still stand by every word):
http://curefans.com/curenews/the-cure-bestival-live-2011/msg75378/#msg75378

[dmscheuer]

Yes, but we've discussed this many times now - it tends to get boring when the same issue is brought up again and again.

Not sure about how much more boring this discussion is than which song on what album is the best, or which performance of song "X" is the best? At least it brings about discussion. At least on my part, I try to be civil and explain why I feel how I do as opposed to just saying Jason stinks.... I've said before he is a very good drummer. If he is where he is he must be. My personal opinion is I don't think he fits the band as well as someone else might ( who, I don't know. But - even as a drummer - I still don't '"get" what he plays most of the time. It just doesn't feel "right" to me. And before anyone jumps in and says most fans like him, I beg to differ. Look at the poll for one. And just the fact that this discussion is still happening after 17 years proves that people STILL feel strongly about it). Just as I can't say you are wrong for liking Jason as a fit for the band, you can't tell me I'm wrong for saying he's a bad fit.

Let's not forget that Bestival was a "quick shot", being released quite "soon" after the show happened AND it was for charity! Sadly this aspect is hardly ever considered by "fans". :(

In 2011 I wrote this about it (and I still stand by every word):
http://curefans.com/curenews/the-cure-bestival-live-2011/msg75378/#msg75378

If you're saying that the drum sound is awful because the album was for charity, then I must say that makes it worse! If you aren't going to put out the best product you can - ESPECIALLY when you're doing it to raise money for a charity - then you shouldn't put it out to begin with. You're essentially asking people to buy a product that is sub-par, possibly and probably lessening your potential sales and donation to the charity. An artist/group should always put out the BEST product when they expect people to pay for it. Doubly so when they want to raise money for a charity.

[Ulrich]

Not sure about how much more boring this discussion is than which song on what album is the best, or which performance of song "X" is the best?

At least there's something new from time to time, because different people prefer different songs.
What claudidark and others have brought up here, has been discussed on several pages now. YAWN.

If you're saying that the drum sound is awful because the album was for charity

If you read what I wrote, you'll see I said that it might be because it was a "quick shot".  :roll:

[dsanchez]

Some interesting discussion going on here.

I guess for some fans the most important will be the quality of the product regardless of the objective the product was made for (e.g. charity or anything else). For some other fans, it will be different.

I personally didn't buy the Bestival CD. I must say that the sound I heard in the songs that finally made it to the CD discouraged me of buying it. Not that I don't support charities, I do, but maybe for this particular one I felt discouraged due the product outcome. Maybe one day I will buy the CD, who knows. When it comes to music I buy, I always buy something that I REALLY like.

As for Jason's style/sound and Boris. We have discussed this again and again and I think, being objective, we know who was the best drummer in the band. I agree with the comments above that Jason IS a good drummer, but I also agree that maybe he is not the best for The Cure. Obviously, Robert does not agree with us and at the end of things, it's his band so he can put there whoever he wants

The Cure - A Forest (Live 1992)

The Cure - A Forest (Bestival Live 2011)

In the videos above we can see that The Cure live sound mixing was way better in 1992 than it's now. And I don't mean just the drums.

[Ulrich]

Some interesting discussion going on here.

Really, where does it happen? I saw nothing new/interesting here since claudidark re-started it.

In the videos above we can see that The Cure live sound mixing was way better in 1992 than it's now.

But one of these comes from an officially released (i.e. professionally mixed) video, while the other does not. Difficult to compare, unless you were there on both nights...

[dsanchez]

Some interesting discussion going on here.

Really, where does it happen? I saw nothing new/interesting here since claudidark re-started it.

people's motivations to act in certain way. I think that's interesting.

In the videos above we can see that The Cure live sound mixing was way better in 1992 than it's now.

But one of these comes from an officially released (i.e. professionally mixed) video, while the other does not. Difficult to compare, unless you were there on both nights...

Now that you mention, I think the best sounding official live video with Jason on it was the Trilogy concerts. The sound of the official "Festival 2005" videos is horrible. And so is all the 4Tour IMO (an emotive tour, but very very bad sound mixing - saw the band in Paris and Oberhausen in 2008 and the sound was light-years away from the first time I saw them in 2002, not to mention the Wish or Prayer Tour as seen in official and unofficial videos)

[dsanchez]

For those interested, a discussion about the "The Cure sound":

http://curefans.com/albums-and-songs/what-was-the-best-cure-sound/

[MeltingMan]

Some interesting discussion going on here.

Really, where does it happen? I saw nothing new/interesting here since claudidark re-started it.

In the videos above we can see that The Cure live sound mixing was way better in 1992 than it's now.

But one of these comes from an officially released (i.e. professionally mixed) video, while the other does not. Difficult to compare, unless you were there on both nights...

I'm sorry,Ulrich,but which one is the unofficial video,...the second?
I'm asking, because it is not released,so it seems,in Germany.

[Ulrich]

I'm sorry,Ulrich,but which one is the unofficial video,...the second?

As far as I know there is no official "Bestival" live video anywhere in the world (?).

Also, I believe, any video, official or bootleg, can't really give the impression how a concert really sounded on that night - how you hear it while you're standing there in the crowd experiencing it with your own ears... (those mini speakers at the computer here are quite good - but nothing compared to a PA at a gig).

Now that you mention, I think the best sounding official live video with Jason on it was the Trilogy concerts.

Yeah, from memory (been a while since I last watched it), there had been nothing negative about the drum sound to my ears.

[patitodark]

Yeah, from memory (been a while since I last watched it), there had been nothing negative about the drum sound to my ears.

The overall is acceptable. What I didn't like is the snare drum sound during the Disintegration part of the show. It's flat and dull.

The cymbals's decay time is too short.

Closedown being played with hot-rods is also a no-no.

The toms are tuned too high for Disintegration...

[Ulrich]

the snare drum sound 
The cymbals's decay time
hot-rods is also a no-no.
The toms are tuned too high ...

I'm just glad I do not notice such details!

I've never listened to The Cure because of the drumming, it was the melodies and the mood and the lyrics...

If I want to listen to real good drumming I turn to Josh Freese (who has played with nearly everyone, from The Vandals to Nine Inch Nails)!

[dmscheuer]

As for Jason's style/sound and Boris. We have discussed this again and again and I think, being objective, we know who was the best drummer in the band. I agree with the comments above that Jason IS a good drummer, but I also agree that maybe he is not the best for The Cure. Obviously, Robert does not agree with us and at the end of things, it's his band so he can put there whoever he wants

The Cure - A Forest (Live 1992)

The Cure - A Forest (Bestival Live 2011)

In the videos above we can see that The Cure live sound mixing was way better in 1992 than it's now. And I don't mean just the drums.

To be honest, the drum sounds on A Forest 2011 are not terrible. The songs from the first 3 albums, a smaller drum sound works OK. As does the larger drum sound we had gotten used to with Boris. However, the songs that - let's say - require that bigger sound, well the song just doesn't sound the same. The same goes for when Jason changes the patterns/fills on iconic songs ( see Disintegration, WCIBY, Open, FTEOTDGS etc.), well again, at least to me, it sounds wrong....

I've never listened to The Cure because of the drumming, it was the melodies and the mood and the lyrics...

Wrong drum sounds ruining the 'mood' of a song....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxtF3rOzK3w

More wrong drum sounds, plus the (yikes) missed fill in the intro...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoLGq0FS3o0

Sheesh 'wish' I could have embedded the videos - sorry

[Ulrich]

As I said before, not being a drummer myself, mostly I do not notice such things...
And I'm happier because of it!