any experience with video converters?

Started by japanesebaby, December 06, 2005, 11:22:49

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japanesebaby

lately i've been struggling with some troublesome vhs transfers (i'm not too happy with the result i'm getting this time with my usual "tricks", for some reason the result runs out to be not as good as it used to be... :smt017  or maybe i am just imagining things)

anyway, i'd just be curious to know what sort of path everyone uses to make vhs -> dvd-r transfers & especially if anyone has experience with  straight-from-vhs-to-dvd video converters? with a converter one could skip one step from the usual chain of vhs -> dvd-recorder (transfer) -> computer (authoring) - at least this is my usual chain...(?). i've heard some people have been praising the results with these converters, but i've been hesitant to get one since they are pretty expensive & wouldn't have any other usage.
i've also been told that the same can be done by using a digital video camera instead of the converter but i haven't tried this since i don't own such a camera. & i'm also uncertain if the quality is as good with using a digital camera as it is with a special converter - does anyone know?
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

lostflower4

There are two ways to go as I see it. Either get yourself a good capture card to use with your computer, or get a good standalone DVD recorder, preferably one with a hard drive. On-the-fly recording to DVD sounds risky to me.

Video modes could be having an effect on the difference you're seeing in quality. I would never go below 4000 kbps for bitrate when using 720 x 576 standard resolution. However, it's best to keep well above this when possible. I try to shoot for at least 5000, and even higher when possible. I'm now going in the direction of doing everything in dual-layer format so I can keep the video bitrate even higher and sometimes use uncompressed audio.

Every little bit in your signal chain counts too. The quality of your VCR, your cables, etc. will all play a part in your final result. As for a specific capture device, I won't recommend one at the present time because my current setup is in a rut... :oops:

Whether or not you're imagining things, it's possible. I know that the more experienced I got with transferring things, the more bad things I noticed. You definitely will get more critical over time, so it's best to not take any shortcuts.

Using a camera to transfer videos? That sounds like crazy talk. :? Unless you're transferring your own DV tape or something, I'd definitely stay away from that idea.

The idea of "skipping a step" might sound intriguing, but direct-to-disc DVD recorders aren't much of a solution. DVD recorders are notorious for making terrible menus. If going in that direction, I would get a standalone machine with a hard drive, then burn the video to DVD. Then I would copy it to my computer and use something TMPGEnc (Tsunami) DVD Author to make your final version with menu and chapters. This can all be done without re-encoding the video or the audio.

Of course, that's actually adding another step. I still haven't found the perfect computer capture card, so again I'm going to stop short of recommending anything at the present time. In a few days I might have a better answer.

Finally, you have to remember that if your source is garbage, your transfer is going to be about the same. A good capture device will be able to clean up some of the video noise, but beyond that there's not much that can be done. In the end, I really think you get what you pay for. If you buy entry-level gear, you're likely going to get entry-level results. I've spent way too much money on my setup, but all in the name of Cure fanaticism I suppose.

I hope my rambling has helped you a little bit. I don't think I really gave you a conclusive answer. :roll:

japanesebaby

thanks, any "ramblings" are welcome and i don't think it was just rambling...

first of all,  already know that i'm probably the only one around here who uses mac and not pc so the software differs... but since there are corresponding software widely available, any hint that pc users might give me is useful.
(then why i stick to mac? well i'm not a apple freak in principle or anything. it's just that i need some software in my work on a daily basis that is available for mac only so there's really no choice. i do have an old pc too but i really cannot afford to buy a new one that would be up to this sort of tasks.)

what i meant with 'skipping one step' was definitely not to use some direct-to-disc recorder (i agree that something like that is out of the question here), but a converter that would let me transfer straight from vhs to computer hard disc. that would skip one step but i am not sure if that itself might improve the quality or not. and it looks like it would cost me about 350 euros to try so... well i guess i'll stick to my standalone recorder.  :wink:
and yes i am well aware that if the source material if crap then it isn't getting any better by digitalizing it &  that it's not the cheapest (although certainly not the fanciest either) gear that i am busying myself with at the moment.

what has really bothered me recently is that after i got a new standalone dvd recorder some time ago (which should have been better than the old one), the quality i get simply isn't as good as it used to be (the dvd recorder isn't somehow as compatible with my vhs (which is pretty good, i'd say)? i don't know...). i've also checked & exchanged all the cables once without any improvements. but since the step between vhs -> dvd recorder should be the only step where major quality loss occurs, the problem should be there. so could it just be that my new dvd recorder could simply somehow be less compatible with my vhs than the previous recorder? sounds weird but this sort of thought (even if it's pure heresy  ;-)) surely starts to creep into my mind. or maybe this sort of differences between same sort of hardware but by different manufacturers is entirely normal, but it just surprised me a lot, i have to say. :smt017

(what was also new to me was that the difference between fine & sp recording mode qualities seem to be much greater with this device than with the old one...? i always thought these were standard things)

well, it looks like i'm once again off to the store to spend some more money on this... but hey, it's only money & like you said it's all in the name of the noble idea of cure fanaticism so... :lol:

(hey just noticed that i've become a curefan master! wow, this really makes my day! :-D  )
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

lostflower4

I'd say the answer here is quite simple. Your new standalone recorder isn't as good as your old one! As well all know, just because something is newer or more expensive doesn't mean it's better. Any chance you still got the old one?

I've never used standalone recorders, so I can't tell you what's good and what isn't.  And I don't know the exact technical specs of fine and SP modes ? It probably varies between brands and models. But SP should be really good quality. I wouldn't think that "fine" would be much better...

I'll keep this short because I don't think it's a compatibility issue. Either something is good or it's not. I'd suggest you either use your old unit or get something different! :P


P.S. Congratulations on your new "status". :-D

japanesebaby

you might well be right & i've thought about this too but i have to say that i have been hoping for some other answer... i wouldn't like to believe it since i actually tested a couple of recorders before deciding on this one & it clearly seemed to be the best then (although it even wasn't the most expensive)... (a couple of quite reliable reviews did praise its 'outstanding recording quality' - i guess it could still really be outstanding, only that my old one must have been even more outstanding then  :wink: )
sadly the old unit isn't with me anymore... so i guess i'll start negotiating over refunds with the store that sold the new one to me...  :evil:

anyway, thanks again caley!
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

lostflower4

I understand. I wouldn't want to believe it either. Do you have any way to "prove" that your old setup was better? For example, a recording you made with it? Nothing would be better than to do a back-to-back comparison of recordings you've made with both units. If the only thing different you were using is the recorder, I'd have to say that your new unit is at fault.

Do you know the model of your new recorder? I know a few people who might know more than me about these things. I'll see what I can find out. And if you know what the old one was, that couldn't hurt either.

Best of luck with everything. :-)

japanesebaby

it's panasonic DMR-EH50, it's not their flagship device or anything but should be decent enough i think. and unfortunately i cannot remember what the old one was (siemens something...) & i know it sounds pretty amateurish that i can't remember but i didn't put it on to my mind then & sadly the situation now is that it's out of my reach to check it.

i think i'll run some tests again & contact the seller/manufacturer if it still stays the same.
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

lostflower4

Hmmm... Seems this may not be a perfect unit:

http://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1395746&highlight=dmreh50#1395746


The flickering, macroblocks, "poor video quality when transferring from VHS source", etc. That last one seems to hit home....

Just food for thought. The only real way to judge things is by personal experience, but I can't help but wonder about this one. :?

japanesebaby

thanks for the link... & well, i don't want to be just deliberately stubborn, but i am a bit wary of these sort of thread comments sometimes. because i can find others that say quite the opposite on this matter (sorry, they are in finnish so it doesn't do much good to post them here i guess  :wink: ) + i've actually gotten some misleading information from some of them before. but surely i agree, it's food for thought as you said.

(about the flickering thing they mentioned: at least i haven't countered anything like that. so it could also be that they are talking about some special lot of these units that has been somehow flawed or about a flaw that has been fixed since - of course can't be sure, but i personally have encountered something like that before.)

i'm still suspecting the problem might be with the very unit i have at home, because i did run some tests on this model before i purchased it but unfortunately these had to be done with another unit & with another vhs model. anyway i didn't notice anything this serious back then. that's why i started with suspecting the compatibility with my vhs & now i'm starting to suspect it might some sort of problem with the input system of my unit(???).

i've also contacted some people who are vastly more experineced on these things than i & i hope to get some comment from them soon. let's see how it turns out.

anyway, thanks again for all your trouble with this. :D
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

lostflower4

Yes, I agree not to believe everything you read. It's hard to say in this case. I suppose you could see if they'll exchange it for the same unit (they should), and you could see how that compares. If it's still the same, I'd say that it's not a very good unit. Maybe it is something to do you with your VCR, but why would it have looked ok with your old recorder?

I've had my own frustrations with things like this, so I know what you're going through. Just keep trying, and don't settle for anything you're not completely happy with! :!:

Best of luck. :-D

japanesebaby

ok i got a bit too tired today (it's a busy time at work & i cannot stay up every night trying to search clues whether my recorder is flawed or not - i need some sleep too :smt108 ). i took the unit back to the store (but they refused to give me full refunds because they have a get-your-money-back-within-7-days policy and i was overdue = crap!). i'm still a bit confused by this because i don't consider myself a random buyer... so where the problem actually was will remain a mystery to me, but let it stay that way. let's just say that i've had enough of standalone dvd-recorders for some time :wink:
so i'm pretty much back in square 1, but like you said one shouldn't settle with something that is only partialy satisfactory - thanks for reminding me about that in a crucial moment ;-)
and i've got some good tips & i think i'll go for something like this next:

http://www.canopus.com/products/ADVC110/index.php

thanks for all your support caley! :smt023  
(i'll be in touch)
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

lostflower4

Ah, Canopus. I know a thing or two about their products, to say the least. :wink:  I think their stuff is good quality, but there are two things you should know about the unit you mention. One, I'm almost positive that it doesn't work on its own. In order to get it to work with a computer, you will also need a compatible internal card. And actually, this unit has been discontinued. They still list it on their site, but it's being phased out. They used to advertise the Edius DV pack, which included a similar internal part along with the internal computer component (for more money, of course). This always seemed complicated to me, and I don't have the extra room inside my computer for both components.

The other thing is that it only captures to AVI, which is not a bad thing, only more time consuming. It also requires a lot of disk space, as it captures to DV-25 format (25 Mbps bitrate - huge!). Then you will have to convert this to MPEG-2, which will take approximately the length of the video. It seems the ADVC series has been superceded by this now:

http://www.canopus.com/products/ACEDVio/index.php


A bit more expensive than the unit you had in mind, but this only requires the one unit itself, and does exactly the same thing. You can also get it for less if you purchase it without software.


Something is to be said about the quality from doing this slower and more tedious AVI method, but if you get a good enough direct MPEG-2 capture device, it should be about the same.

I decided to forego this way, and after trying numerous capture devices by other brands (with great disappointment), I settled on this:

http://www.canopus.com/products/MPEGProMVR/index.php


Going up a little in price here. This one did a pretty good job, but since it's a Japanese unit, it's geared for an input of 0 IRE black levels. I really don't want to get into explaining this at the moment, because it's quite confusing and complicated. But basically Japanese NTSC and PAL are based on IRE 0. We Americans had to be a little different and decided to use 7.5. To sum it up, when you capture American NTSC video with this unit, the black levels will come out a little screwy if you're making a DVD. Since you are in a PAL country, unless you plan on doing some American NTSC transfers, it won't be an issue.

They could have easily made a toggle for this, but they didn't, so... Now I sprung for this. All in the name of Cure fanticism, you know... :oops:

http://www.canopus.com/products/MVRD2200V/index.php


Not exactly an inexpensive product, but the quality is truly mind-blowing. Like nothing I've ever seen before. The catch? Well, it could be this... Since I had a previous Canopus unit in my machine, I believe there might be a driver or software conflict that makes the capturing process crash all the time. I can't get it to capture for over 20-30 minutes without crashing. This makes it impossible to do anything worthwhile. The other possibility is that it was a faulty card, and soon I'll know for sure. I've already sent my unit back for an exchange, and very soon I'll be testing the replacement to see if that will fix the problem. I really hope it does. :?

If there is still a problem, that means there is in fact some sort of conflict caused by the previous card. And believe me, I have tried EVERYTHING to erase any remnants left by the previous unit. I've gone combed through my registry and all the Windows system files to get rid of anything related to the original card, but it didn't seem to do any good.

If it is a software conflict, the only remaining solution would be a complete reformat of my computer. I just reloaded a few months ago after a hard drive failure, and it's just not something I want to do. I have my computer really customized with all kinds of programs, and it would just be a horrible thing to have to do again so soon...

So basically, the search for a perfect capturing solution has been eluding me for a very long time ? well over a year. I've thought about just giving it up, but that would make the hours and hours of trying worthless. So I don't think I will ? yet. Soon I'll know what I'm going to have to do, but in the meantime I've gotten curious about this standalone recorder. It has every feature you can imagine, including PAL support. A little on the expensive side, but it sure seems cool!

http://www.world-import.com/dvr-530h.htm


You might want to call or e-mail Canopus and to make sure that the original device you mentioned can work on its own, but I'm almost certain it can't. If that's the case, buying the two necessary units to make it work would likely exceed the costs of some of the other solutions I've mentioned.

Soon I'll know where I'm standing as far as my setup goes. In the meantime, I can only hope.  :roll:

You'd probably be very happy with the MPEGPro MVR, however. I just sold mine for a cut-rate price on eBay. The person who won that was quite lucky. I lost a good deal of money there. :(

I'll leave it at that for now. Good luck to both of us, I guess. :lol:

japanesebaby

thanks for such extensive comments again! :D
actually it looks like being a mac-user is pretty helpful in this matter, since i've been told by a couple of people who've been using ADVC110 with mac that no extra internal cards are needed - the data can be captured straight with iMovie which is a software that comes with every mac so one doesn't have to buy anything separately. ADVC110 seems to be a device that mac users widely praise, but i am actually still waiting for someone to comment on the other one you also mentioned, ACEDVio  before settling with anything.
i'm aware of the slowness of ADVC110 (and after getting well used to the high speed dubbing possibilities of my previous standalone recorders i'll really have to do some learning on waiting i guess :wink:)
but still, i'll skip the standalone models for a while at least... at the moment i especially find their lack of the ability to compress the data very limiting. 60 minutes isn't very much if that's all one can fit into one disc if one wants to retain the best quality. surely among the best recorders the differences in quality between different recording modes aren't very notable, but since i have had quite the opposite experience lately, so i wouldn't really count on anything anymore before i see it.

hm, MVRD2200V certainly looks good, but it also looks like it's for Windows so it's out of my reach....

and yes, the amount of frustration with computers/hardware/software sometimes...  :smt091 all those problems you are having! i hope it turns out the best possible way (but to be honest it warms my heart that i'm not the only one who's temporarily stumbling here ;-) )
now i absolutely do not want to make any deliberate 'pro-mac' speeches here (because that would be simply stupid), but i have to say that i've been really relieved to find that i never seem have any sort of software conflicts with mac. and with my old pc they seemed to be a source of daily annoyance and they really used to drive me mad - but i also have to add that my configuration wasn't the most clever one then...)

i think i just saw an extensive review on a finnish site about that pioneer DVR-530H - it caugth my eye too because it surely looks good. i tried to search for it again, but cannot find it anymore... anyway, it would be nice to know how it really performs.  

yes, the best of luck for both of us  
& thanks again ;-)
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

lostflower4

Although I am not a Mac fan myself, I can't aruge that it's awesome that you can use the unit alone. I really hope that's true!

I neglected to notice that the direct-to-MPEG cards are Windows only. I wonder why. And you can always to the AVI to MPEG conversion overnight or while you're away from home if time is an issue. I'm really interested to hear how that works. I just don't understand what comes out of the device that connects it to your computer... :?

I agree that it's silly to start a PC vs. Mac debate, but I've never had much problems with PC's until this little ordeal. Yeah, the versions prior to XP were a little buggy, but I think they've come a long way in that. Anymore I'm worried about my hard drives crashing more than anything! :x

Anyway, I don't think you can go wrong with one of the Mac-friendly Canopus units. Another thing to think about ? I see the models go up from 110. 300, 500, 1000... I'm sure the sales people would say you get better quality for the higher models, but it's hard to say to what extent that's true. I just checked, and there's a definite price jump just between the 110 and 300 (more than double). Then beyond that, well... :shock:  

If you know people who are doing well with the 110, that just might be the solution. I hope it works! By the way, I've just received my replacement MVR-D2200V. In a couple of hours I'm going to put it in and see what happens. I'm a little scared... :smt105

lostflower4

The verdict is in: There must be some sort of driver conflict. My new replacement card crashed in 3 seconds! :twisted: And again and again and again...

I tried more crazy stuff to try to wipe out anything from the previous card, and I even managed to really screw up my computer for a couple hours. Thank goodness for the system restore feature! 8)

I was really thinking hard about my next step. After doing things in the computer domain all this time, I don't think I want to go the standalone route. So I might just be doing that dreaded reformat in the coming days... :(