Started by MAtT, July 18, 2020, 12:21:12
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Quote from: Ulrich on July 18, 2020, 11:23:32Thank you so much! For years I'd been looking out, asking here and there. You're the one who finally "delivered"! Excellent!
Quote from: MAtT on July 18, 2020, 12:21:12Then a few months later I went on my first trip up to London's Camden and Kensington markets with my best friend Nicola, looking mostly for clothes. Here's a recent tweet with pics of her and me at the time. She and I went out in early 1987 - my first proper girlf - and then became best friends a year later after we unknowingly both got into alternative music.https://twitter.com/infovoy_v2/status/1276466408340291585Those markets back then were fantastic. Full of clothes & music for, and people from, every kind of 80s alternative scene you can imagine. Coming from a suburban village at the edge of a smallish town where there was only me, Nic and a handful of other like minded people (compared to the wash of 80s mainstream culture) it was a real eye opener! I'd spend a lot of great days there in the coming years.
Quote from: MAtT on July 18, 2020, 12:21:12Anyway, what I hadn't realised before that first trip was that there were shops and stalls selling unofficial vinyl productions of bootleg recordings of shows (something that had been going on for decades) and others selling tapes (a more recent phenomenon of bootleggers bootlegging the bootlegged!). The tapes were considerably cheaper ($5-£10 maybe) than the vinyl ($12-£20 perhaps) so still being at school the former were for me.The first tape I bought was a double - the entire finale show on the 1987 tour, at Wembley Arena. You can see the cover herehttps://i.postimg.cc/7PdntfPB/front.jpgHere's my diary entry for 22nd June 1988, a few days after:https://i.postimg.cc/L80dyVPw/DSC03434.jpg
Quote from: MAtT on July 18, 2020, 12:21:12I just loved that tape, it introduced me to songs I didn't know and which became favourites (Faith & The Drowning Man) and even the world of Cure covers (they do an amusingly riotous version of Slade's Merry Christmas at the end - see below). I didn't realise until much later the speed of the recording was a bit fast - oddities like that are abound in bootlegs! - but it was all part of the adventure.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71uyabvV6pg
Quote from: MAtT on July 18, 2020, 12:21:12in the meantime here's some of my collection (most is long disposed of) and a few more pics of me from that era...https://i.postimg.cc/wjS1CD84/006.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/Lsx8HPrM/1988.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/Y9V2FHrn/Big-Hair-1988.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/Dzwbd7hn/Karen-Rouse-Matt-18th-BD.jpg
QuoteSueC: Is that a Border Collie? And, you're a muso. Are you still playing?
QuoteDallington, near Heathfield, do you know it?
QuoteI notice you were "talking" to your diary; hello, goodbye, stuff like that. I did the same as a teenager; it seemed more like a conversation that way
QuoteHaha, you did the hair and everything! I'm curious as to how you actually got it to tower like this. Did you dry it upside-down in front of a fan heater? With some sort of glue-like styling aid?
Quote from: MAtT on July 20, 2020, 14:16:27And no! Though it was my guitar I can't play! I had a few classical guitar and piano lessons when I was very young but was far too impatient to learn properly. I'm quite good at just picking instruments up and working out how to do the basics, but not much more. All I can play properly now on the piano is the opening bars of Moonlight Sonata and on the guitar the chords of Wild Thing, the start of A Forst and the basslines to Figurehead and Faith. Oh, and the obligatory Stairway to Heaven start.
Quote from: MAtT on July 20, 2020, 14:16:27Yeah, things were very tribal back then and if you weren't of the mainstream (not a 'casual' as we used to call it) then for the most part you wanted to identify as such! Plus I've always been a huge show off. *chuckle*
Quote from: MAtT on July 20, 2020, 14:16:27The hair was done with hairspray (the cheap 'Supersoft' Boots own brand I found best, ironically) applied at the same time as heating with the hairdryer. I ruined several of my mum's by clogging them up with spray!
Quote from: MAtT on July 20, 2020, 14:16:27This was before the strong gels and putties of today existed. Occasionally people used to try home made recipes - egg whites and lemon juice, and soap were examples - but they tended to turn into disasters when it rained! There was at least one occasion when not at home and devoid of hairspray to fix it, I used superglue on some errant strands. Had to cut them out later!
Quote from: MAtT on July 20, 2020, 14:16:27But I never abandon something I like and I continued to enjoy listening to my old goth and alternative favourites, and bought and liked Wish in 1992. Then by the time of Wild Mood Swings in 96 I'd rediscovered my love of darker guitar music generally having got into Radiohead and enjoyed the darkening of trip hop with bands like Massive Attack and Portishead. I was ready to fully re-embrace my Cure addiction, including seeing them live that year (the first since Wembley 1989).
Quote from: MAtT on July 20, 2020, 14:16:27At the same time I'd recently got daily access to the web at work and started looking at early Cure websites, including Stiff As Toys Tall As Men with its message board and review section for bootlegs, A Chain of Flowers (which still exists of course) and various people's tape trading sites. I was amazed by the sheer number of Cure concerts that had been recorded and decided to contact some of the traders to see if I could trade the few shows I had for others. And yeah, slow at first (to find people who didn't have what I had) but quick once I got going, after a few years of tape-to-tape recording and standing in line at Post Offices with bulky parcels, I'd amassed quite a collection and had created my own website to trade (The Upstairs Room). Here's the list as it stood in 2000:
QuoteThe first year out of university I took some piano lessons, but found the right hand - left hand thing didn't agree with me
QuoteThis didn't stop me improvising funeral dirges for dying butterflies with my friends for a couple of years - when it gets cold, butterflies tend to die, and we used to put them in matchboxes lined with pretty fabric scraps and arrange their funerals, with sadness and speeches and music.
QuoteCasual = Muggle?
QuoteROFL. What did your mother think about this? Annoyed or supportive?
QuoteFinally Brett has heard of one other person who also likes Portishead! That's one of his all-time favourite bands. I don't mind trip hop and I'm jealous that you got to see The Cure live.
Quote from: MAtT on July 23, 2020, 13:24:06Quote from: undefinedThe first year out of university I took some piano lessons, but found the right hand - left hand thing didn't agree with meYeah, that's the part I found hard work too, and I'm not keen on hard work!
Quote from: undefinedThe first year out of university I took some piano lessons, but found the right hand - left hand thing didn't agree with me
Quote from: MAtT on July 23, 2020, 13:24:06Ha! I love butterflies, always have. I used to capture them as a kid and keep them in large propagators with flowers in. Probably not the best idea looking back, but I never had funerals for them!
Quote from: MAtT on July 23, 2020, 13:24:06Quote from: undefinedCasual = Muggle?In the sense of being someone who went along with the mainstream fashion of the day, yes. And that fashion was casual sports wear in colourful pastels, or the very casual sports wear of tracksuits and sports shoes. Whereas the alternative scene was comprised of anything that went against that: goths & cureheads, smiths fans, metallers, rockabillies, psychobillies, skateboarders etc. etc. Often the more aggressive casual elements would taunt or try to pick fights with people in the alternative scenes, which reinforced tribal allegiances.
Quote from: undefinedCasual = Muggle?
Quote from: MAtT on July 23, 2020, 13:24:06My mum was pretty supportive, at least once I started buying my own hairspray and hairdryers!
Quote from: MAtT on July 23, 2020, 13:24:06I think she worried a bit about my going out as I did because she knew it might cause 'agro' as she called it. Not so much at school or in the village (I'm not small and was pretty feisty so could handle myself in trouble) but more going into town or to London in case I got picked on by more serious people. My dad was less so, not so much because of the hair and clothes, but he didn't like the makeup. I think he thought I might be gay, and that generation was less enlightened than ours, at least back then. Ironically now I have nephew who came out as gay and my dad is fine with it! He made a fuss and told me to stop, but by then I was 16 and was having none of it, saying he'd have to put up with it or I'd leave, and as loving parents neither he nor my mum wanted me to have to find my own way, so he had to put up with it!
Quote from: MAtT on July 23, 2020, 13:24:06After a while my mum came to like it I think. She's just missed out on the swinging 60s so I think both in the goth thing and the later rave thing, she lived vicariously through me a little!
Quote from: MAtT on July 23, 2020, 13:24:06Quote from: undefinedFinally Brett has heard of one other person who also likes Portishead! That's one of his all-time favourite bands. I don't mind trip hop and I'm jealous that you got to see The Cure live. Yeah they were great. Never saw them live unfortunately. Beth's voice is just the best, and they're one of the darker bands of the genre.
Quote from: undefinedFinally Brett has heard of one other person who also likes Portishead! That's one of his all-time favourite bands. I don't mind trip hop and I'm jealous that you got to see The Cure live.
Quote from: MAtT on July 23, 2020, 13:24:06I have seen Massive Attack several times and they were my faves. Does Brett know the band Earthling? They had a trip hop album Radar which I loved, but no-one's ever heard of them! They're got more of the -hop in trip-hop than Portishead if you know what I mean, but plenty or trip- too. For me they are really of the time.
Quote from: MAtT on July 23, 2020, 13:24:06The Cure I've seen many time, first in 89, again in 96, then twice on the 2000 tour (here and in Belgium) twice at festivals in the early 2000s and also at a Trilogy show in Berlin in 2002, which was fantastic. Those later shows were all meet-ups with people from the old message board - we had quite a little Cure community back in the day!
QuoteIf you never had a butterfly funeral, does that mean you let them go again after a bit?
QuoteI think that's so fascinating, tribes in the urban jungle. Have you by any chance ever read Desmond Morris' The Human Zoo? It's a bit of an eye-opener, not to mention very funny. Biologist who researched baboons and then realised how like baboons human were..
QuoteI'm wondering about that whole anti-makeup thing you can commonly find in a certain generation of men, as pertains other men. As a female commenting on this, it seems to me that males get more cultural pressure to be very straitlaced compared to females. I can wear pants and nobody accuses me of cross-dressing (though of course back in the 1930s that might have been the thinking). I can wear my husband's T-shirt or jumper and nobody raises an eyebrow, but if he wore mine, there'd be all sorts of sexual and identity implications made about it. I can wear make-up or not, although I guess women tend to have pressure put on them to wear it, while men tend to have pressure put on them not to. Rum old world. The younger generations are doing all this better than ours, thankfully!
QuoteYour mum actually sounds very cool. I've a friend in her 80s now, Alice, who's super-cool like that - she's always listening to her grandkids' and great-grandkids' music with them and really diving in to all sorts of things. I've known her for over 20 years and knowing her made me stop worrying about getting old, because if getting old is being anything like her, then that's fine. It's funny because she used to scandalise other "old ladies" who came to our philosophy society (as part of a general mix of backgrounds and ages) by being very open about things "old ladies" weren't supposed to be open about. She's a person, not a number. She showed me exactly that, by the way she lived. She won't wear the intellectual corsets and other common ideas on how she should be because she's female, or over 60, or anything else that certain people like to make into shackles to bind others with.
QuoteThat does sound very lovely; what happened to them?
QuoteHow "Goth" are you? (If that's a question that can be answered?) Do you have cool dark outfits from the really olden days?
QuoteBrett wouldn't classify himself as anything, but has read the Autumn Cemetery text; also he gave me a copy of Death The High Cost Of Living when we were first getting to know each other.
Quote from: MAtT on July 25, 2020, 06:08:51Yeah I did. Though I also collected caterpillars in the hope they'd turn into butterflies, but with no idea of what plants to put in there (I think I thought a leaf was just a leaf so they should be able to eat any). They died, but no funerals. I also kept stick insects we bought from a shop. Inevitably one of our cats got through the netting and made half a meal of them!
Quote from: MAtT on July 25, 2020, 06:08:51I'm not hugely well read, but do have The Naked Ape and read it many many years ago. I see it's a continuation of that theme so should check it out. Yeah, humans are very tribal, sometimes harmlessly, sometimes not.
Quote from: MAtT on July 25, 2020, 06:08:51Yeah, I've never really gender conformed from those days onwards. Even when I got into rave and then clubbing in the late 90s I was the one in the 3-inch spice girl bufallo boots buying my shirts from Top Shop rather than Top Man! Transgender politics is a strange thing these days - I don't agree with radicals that gender defines sex - I think to do so is harmful to feminism - but I'm very much a trans supporter as for me gender's just an arbitrary social construct that very much needs dismantling. The more 'cross dressing' the better.
Quote from: MAtT on July 25, 2020, 06:08:51I'm also a Madonna fan (predating my goth phase and as I said, I never dispose of old loves and will always be a fan) and this song strikes a chord with what you said - especially the start. Gender as currently constructed is sexist.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYwgG2oyUbA
Quote from: MAtT on July 25, 2020, 06:08:51Yeah, she's not around any more but she was always cool and became more and more so with age. I think that happens a lot, even for people who were uptight in their younger days. I would think getting really old makes you realise the things that matter in life, which though can vary a lot, are almost never worrying about what other people are up to that you don't like (as long as it's harmless). IOW very old people tend to be more 'live and let live'.
Quote from: MAtT on July 25, 2020, 06:08:51Well, 'goth' means a lot of things and comes in a lot of varieties right? Even back then, and even more so these days. I guess you could say I was on the hippy goth side of things because as well as classic Sisters, Bauhaus, etc, I loved bands like All About Eve, contemporary artists like Suzanne Vega, and old stuff like Simon and Garfunkle, and my dress reflected that - lots of paisley shirts and flowing scarves.
Quote from: MAtT on July 25, 2020, 06:08:51And of course I'd be thought of as a Curehead, which for some of the older scene (those who were goth from the early 80s) was seen as a bad thing (a pop goth) but for Cure fans was a badge of honour. Tribes within tribes! Here's some more pics of me and friends 88-90, but unfortunately they're at school or at home school lunchtimes, so I don't really have any of me fully dressed up - in every photo but the first one we're all in (ostensibly) 'school uniform'! The first one was a school fancy dress as I recall, but killjoy that I was/am I don't do fancy dress (dressing up being a deadly serious business and not for fun lol) so I just put on 3 paisley shirts, a long skirt, and declared myself 'Mary Poppins' as I recall! The last one is me with Charlotte from my magic tape story...
Quote from: MAtT on July 25, 2020, 06:08:51Quote from: SueC on July 25, 2020, 03:04:38Brett wouldn't classify himself as anything, but has read the Autumn Cemetery text; also he gave me a copy of Death The High Cost Of Living when we were first getting to know each other. I'm not a comic book fan, but the exception is Neil Gaiman. I have and love the whole Sandman/Death collection. Quintessential goth reading, so I'm hereby declaring Brett goth-at-heart.
Quote from: SueC on July 25, 2020, 03:04:38Brett wouldn't classify himself as anything, but has read the Autumn Cemetery text; also he gave me a copy of Death The High Cost Of Living when we were first getting to know each other.
QuoteI used to take in snails for a couple of days as a kid, and test out their food preferences. (I think that's a precursor to what I do with our Airbnb guests nowadays! ) Anyway, at around age nine I also drew coloured dots on the shells of a group of snails that was hanging around a rock wall in Italy, named each snail, and kept a diary on their movements and behaviours (you could, in retrospect, just tell I was going to grow into a biologist! ).
QuoteYeah, a bit of a revenge fantasy? I don't know if it's great to get in the same gutter that the people who are causing trouble are in - I kind of like the idea that the best revenge is to live well, and not let others throw you off your course. But I do see the problems she's highlighting. It's not fun to live with misogyny, and it's even less fun when people deny it exists. The stereotypical guys in her video make me want to throw up, and I've known too many of them (surely there's crocodile farms in search of fodder? - that's so much cheaper than psychotherapy, which doesn't work on entitled asses anyway ).
QuoteYeah, very astute principle there! Sorry you lost your mother. I do think age tends to moderate various idiocies, but there's glaring exceptions too of course - like the Resident Rump.
QuoteIn the case of people like that though, we're looking at truly entitled asses, who tend not to change. In that case, another old saying applies: "Change happens one funeral at a time."
QuoteIt actually sounds like a lot of fun! Me, I was constrained by my dysfunctional upbringing, and was below the poverty line from teenage to when I graduated from university - complicated story. Anyway, I had just a couple of changes of casual clothes, and nothing fancy, until I graduated from university and started my first job, which was in science research. Even then, it took me a few years to warm up, because I'd had the Cinderella role for too long. But warm up I eventually did...
QuoteMaus sometime. And I take it you will have seen Neverwhere?
Quote from: MAtT on July 25, 2020, 13:19:58I can't recall the video but will take a look. It's the spoken part (by Kate Moss I think?) that strikes a chord with me, saying "Girls can wear jeans / And cut their hair short / Wear shirts and boots / 'Cause it's OK to be a boy / But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading". I think that's spot on regarding the asymmetry in clothing and other areas - true equality would demand culture embrace what's stereotypically 'feminine' as well as women being more stereotypically 'masculine'. It should work both ways.
Quote from: MAtT on July 25, 2020, 13:19:58Quote from: undefinedI do think age tends to moderate various idiocies, but there's glaring exceptions too of course - like the Resident Rump.LOL, Rump's not that old yet. Maybe even he'll get there, but that's just a rare glimpse of my optimism talking!
Quote from: undefinedI do think age tends to moderate various idiocies, but there's glaring exceptions too of course - like the Resident Rump.
Quote from: MAtT on July 25, 2020, 13:19:58Quote from: undefinedIt actually sounds like a lot of fun! Me, I was constrained by my dysfunctional upbringing, and was below the poverty line from teenage to when I graduated from university - complicated story. Anyway, I had just a couple of changes of casual clothes, and nothing fancy, until I graduated from university and started my first job, which was in science research. Even then, it took me a few years to warm up, because I'd had the Cinderella role for too long. But warm up I eventually did...Sorry to hear that. I guess I was from a lower middle class family with enough to get by but not throw around. I didn't have an allowance or anything like that, so I worked Saturdays at a local garden centre and made enough to buy a few nice clothes from Reading and London markets, plus a tonne of stuff from jumble sales locally - myself and Nicola were regulars along with the blue rinse brigade (did old ladies have blue hair over there in the 80s - or was that a weird English thing? Never understood that!).
Quote from: undefinedIt actually sounds like a lot of fun! Me, I was constrained by my dysfunctional upbringing, and was below the poverty line from teenage to when I graduated from university - complicated story. Anyway, I had just a couple of changes of casual clothes, and nothing fancy, until I graduated from university and started my first job, which was in science research. Even then, it took me a few years to warm up, because I'd had the Cinderella role for too long. But warm up I eventually did...
Quote from: MAtT on July 25, 2020, 13:19:58Those pics are all great! I'm an LOTR fan too - always have been - and a bit of a Tolkien geek really (I have most of his stuff and have read all 12 volumes History of Middle Earth!).
Quote from: MAtT on July 25, 2020, 13:19:58So swords and Nazgul are right up my street! I was definitely not camera shy, there just weren't so many cameras about in those days. I do remember myself and some of those mates being stopped in the street by American tourists in Reading, so they could take our pictures. I liked that, such a show off.
Quote from: MAtT on July 25, 2020, 13:19:58But I'm sure you had as much or more fun than I did - behind the image I was pretty damn moody back then - , trying to have a live-in relationship with my first girlf Karen at only 17, pissed off with school, and even more pissed off at the thought of having to enter the adult word. it wasn't 'til the early 90s I lightened up a lot. For about 15 years anyway, now my youth's gone I'm a moody git again!
Quote from: undefinedIt's funny you know, misogyny is not just perpetuated by toxic males, but also by toxic females - and the "policing" of manhood and what it should be, and what men should look like, weirdly seems to be driven so much by other males - the toxic, insecure kind. So I guess the point I'm trying to make is that gender policing is very much done by the gender that is being policed - males giving males a hard time, females giving females a hard time - and not just by the "opposite" gender.
Quote from: undefinedAnd just to complicate things - while it's good that Madonna drew attention to this stuff, I didn't think she was a good female role model when I was growing up, and I don't think it now either. I mean, people can choose to live how they do and that's fine, but she was never a person I admired - she seemed to me to perpetuate some pretty unhealthy stereotypes of how girls and women should be, herself. In a way, like U2 did that supposedly "ironic" rock star stuff in the 1990s, which just never struck me as genuine, or as good communication. I didn't appreciate her grovelling on the floor in a short skirt making eyes at the camera for her Burning Up video in the 80s, when I was growing up, because whether that was supposed to be ironic or not, it still perpetuated this idea that women were supposed to be decorative in a particular set kind of way - and in a submissive, come-get-me way - as eye-candy for men who were basically encultured to leer at them. I don't think that's healthy sexuality, and I've seen that create so many problems around sexuality and body dysmorphia in young women - both in me growing up, and in generations of teenage girls since then. It's an actual thing, and people like Madonna and Kylie Minogue and their ilk, and all the trashy teen (and beyond) magazines, and a lot of the cosmetics advertising, and reams and reams of the pornography "industry" all perpetuate this kind of shiitake, which by the way is as damaging to males as it is to females.
Quote from: MAtT on July 27, 2020, 16:30:52P.S Brett looks as laid-back as I was imagining him. Way too laid back to be typing on a message board! Sensible man!
Quote from: MAtT on July 27, 2020, 16:30:52Firstly I should say that I do try to separate art from the artists, but the artists themselves I will reject if they turn out to be people I fundamentally disagree with on what I take to be important issues, if they are still living. (Rejecting dead artists is kinda pointless I think, other than to say they have bad views -it's not like you can affect them by not following their social media or seeing them perform live). An example would be Morrissey in regards to what I see as his racism (or at least xenophobia of some sort). I used to see him live, buy his books and new records etc. but now I'd not do that. I refuse to abandon my love of old Smiths songs (and after all The Smiths was more than him) but that's as much as I'll have to do with him now.