Instants

[robiola]

Ah, there's always deathbed...

I've always wondered -- does that count?  I don't think it should.... Too easy!

[japanesebaby]

Ah, there's always deathbed...

so are you suggesting that people who don't believe in god could just as well go and kill themselves?

[Janko]

Ah, there's always deathbed...

so are you suggesting that people who don't believe in god could just as well go and kill themselves?

YES!!!
Yes I Do!





PS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathbed_conversion

[coxoxi]

Ah, there's always deathbed...

so are you suggesting that people who don't believe in god could just as well go and kill themselves?

YES!!!
Yes I Do!





PS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathbed_conversion

interesting theory Janko 
then maybe i should kill myself? 

[japanesebaby]

Ah, there's always deathbed...

so are you suggesting that people who don't believe in god could just as well go and kill themselves?

YES!!!
Yes I Do!





PS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathbed_conversion

actually i might want to kill myself if i'd ever find myself converting like that! :eek:


but tell me Janko, why exactly should you (or anyone else) as a believer have any more reason (if not even "right") to live than me, a non-believer?

does believing into some higher power make someone a better and more valuable(?) person, more entitled to enjoy this world?

because i could just as well ask: since believers believe in the afterlife anyway, so why don't they go ahead and kill themselves? after all, they believe they have something more coming up for them and they believe they'll still somehow keep on existing  after their bodies are no more. but i don't believe so - so perhaps my life is much more precious to me than any believer's life could ever be? my life in unique, and i believe that once it'll end, it'll end. the end of story.
but believers have the eternity in mind anyway (at least that's what they believe), so why should they really worry? because even if they died they could be like "oops, i think i just died -  but hey you know, so what? i'm still here!"

[Janko]

actually i might want to kill myself if i'd ever find myself converting like that! 

No japanesebaby, you didn't understand my point.
(Cheers rabiola, only you were on the spot)
So last few posts went a bit a stray.

All values and the whole concept of moral originated from religion. So even if you claim you don't believe - your upbringing, education, and way of life is hugely influenced by religion. You might say that you're a rationalist and naturalist, but in the core of your day to day judgment there are things like Golden rule and   "Thou shalt not...". When you get older - you'll find out that there has to be something beyond sickness, pain and death.

In a way, its like conservativism and liberalism. Everybody is liberal at young age, and as you get older and older - you become more and more conservative...

[japanesebaby]

All values and the whole concept of moral originated from religion. So even if you claim you don't believe - your upbringing, education, and way of life is hugely influenced by religion. You might say that you're a rationalist and naturalist, but in the core of your day to day judgment there are things like Golden rule and   "Thou shalt not...".

no, i think the concept of religion originated from a (natural?) need to be moral.
if one says it's the other way round (moral originates from religion) then it's the same as saying all people who don't believe/don't practice religion are actually immoral.

so yes, in my core there is a "thou shalt not..." - but it is not there because of religion. it's there because i'm a human being. humanity can have such high moral values without the help of the concept of god. "god" is merely a mirror there in the distance.

When you get older - you'll find out that there has to be something beyond sickness, pain and death.

hmm. i don't understand why growing older would change my mind on this. it almost sounds to me like you were saying "when you get older you will become afraid of dying and feel the panic as you realize your existence is coming to an end and then you WILL grab that last straw, last chance, like a drowning man... and you will become a believer".
like said in the thread above, i also sometimes envy people who do believe. but still, that doesn't make me want to believe too: because that would be cheating myself, believing just because "it makes me feel better". and that's a completely wrong reason to believe (in god). and that's also the best proof that god was created by man for his own enjoyment and should i even say "entertainment": since it's something that makes existing more bearable - just like drinking and doing drugs for some people....

In a way, its like conservativism and liberalism. Everybody is liberal at young age, and as you get older and older - you become more and more conservative...

actually, this isn't true at all. you can say it might be common but it's not like it's a law or something. i know many people who've been very very conservative on early age but became something different when they grew up and realized that things are not quite like that at all. actually, some of them they were very relieved about their revelation.

so all i'm saying is that one annot generalize this kind of thing.
one cannot say believing is a necessity or something that precedes morality/humanity.
it's more like a product of morality: it's just a way of conceptualizing it all, putting it in an organizational form, and in the end institutionalizing(!) it.


what i dont' deny is the religions' effect on our culture - that is huge indeed... even to the point that one could say there is no culture without religion. i am very aware of this and always have been as i work with music and arts. but that's still not the same as saying that religion precedes moral/morality. our culture, education, society... it's heavily based on/connected with this "moral that got institutionalized" (=religion), but that doesn't mean religion is the source of all things. because religion was born/created out of something - and THAT something the real core of all things. and that's inside us whether or not we believe in god and religion or whether we don't.

[japanesebaby]

by the way, another point of view...

...I WENT OUT OF MY WAY TO GET THIS BAD
AND YOU STILL DON'T GET HOW FAR
BUT NOW I'M BACK! I'M NEW!
AND IT'S A WONDERFUL THING
BUT YOU STILL DON'T GET HOW THINGS ARE...

NOT SUPERSTITION - I'M TALKING HIDEOUS KINKY
NO NOT RELIGION - I'M TALKING SERIOUS OOBE
NOT SCIENCE FICTION - I'M TALKING HORRIBLE FREAKY
YEAH ALL THE STUFF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN
WELL THAT STUFF IS FOR REAL

GOT MYSELF A CHANGE OF LIFE
GOT MYSELF A CHANGE OF STYLE
GOT MYSELF A NEW DIRECTION
GOT MYSELF A REASON WHY

I JUST FELL RIGHT OUT OF MY FACE ONE DAY
AND I TOOK IT AS A SIGN FROM GOD...



(of course depending on how one decides to read it. anyway.)