@SueC Moved this question here from another topic:
QuoteWhat about you, @Ulrich - do you ever not buy music because you don't want to fund someone's attitude? Do you prefer to give your money to better causes? Do you read interviews before you leap in and start buying the back catalogue? And conversely, have you ever bought albums and then seen someone interviewed and thought, "OMG!!!!"?
(Feel free to move this to another topic if you think it's warranted.)
Well, the answer is "No". I can't remember having done any of this. Back in the day (80's and 90's) I used to read lots of music papers anyway, so I knew the interviews already. ;)
I found this similar discussion in other forums before and had to tell people that I was either lucky or maybe I just intuitively chose musicians (at least so far) who didn't go crazy and/or uttered "strange" sentences.
(Example? Okay: Morrissey. Never liked him right from the start, apart from maybe 2 Smiths songs. Now even fans are disgusted by his attitude and actions. Didn't happen to me so far with anyone.
Another example: Johnny Ramone. I was suprised to hear he was a big Reagan fan and rather leaning towards "the right", that's unusual for "punk rockers", but then again: in a democracy that is totally okay and he was entitled to have his opinion(s).)
Of course, over the years, there were bands I used to like and at some point just didn't listen to anymore (e.g. Sisters Of Mercy) or started to dislike because of their newer albums (e.g. Killing Joke, too "heavy metally" for my ears).
So far,
none of my fave musicians has gone and killed someone or uttered disgusting nonsense, which I'm kinda happy about.
Of course, some of 'em might've done stupid things (when drunk or "under the influence" of substances), including things I wouldn't find "tasteful" if I'd been present then and there, but I tend to "forgive" them (as long as the music remains good to my ears).
Another example: I read bad things about Hugh Cornwell (ex Stranglers frontman), apparently he wasn't always kind to fans (e.g. saying "I just come off stage, can you wait a little bit before asking me for autographs?" or something along these lines). When I met him after a gig (he was selling his merch himself), the couple behind me got "told off" for filming him with a laptop ("you could've asked me before filming me!") and I could see his point. He was very kind to me though, even reminded me that he could sign the stuff I'd just bought (I'd almost forgotten). :happy
Yeah, I can really understand Hugh Cornwell getting miffed by the fans filming him with a laptop. I think respectful treatment has to go both ways, and that people should be able to object to disrespectful treatment without that being painted as unkind - I mean, how kind is it to film someone without permission, even if technically you're allowed to do that in a public place?
I saw a recent interview with him, actually, and came away with the impression that he's a decent bloke, just from the things he was saying, and his manner and body language as well. We both liked
Golden Brown and a few other of their songs, and it was a bonus to see that really positive interview. :smth023
Speaking of technology, one thing about that which drives me mad is watching all these people waving their phones high in the air and getting in other people's sightlines at gigs. It decreases the enjoyment for other people, and I also have to question why it's so much more important to have some crappy footage and sound of a gig than to actually be fully in the moment and just enjoy the gig. There's plenty of live gigs on DVDs etc already that are officially filmed and available, for a lot of bands - why not watch those instead of some crappy clip you took? It's like Instagram - it's like the photo of your breakfast is somehow more important these days than your breakfast. :neutral-face
Yeah, about Morrissey, ditto. And I also have to say, and this will surprise some people, that I think the Rolling Stones don't come across well in interviews - well, Mick Jagger anyway. I wouldn't invite him to have a cup of tea at our place in a million years, I'd point him at the nearest coffee shop and get out the garlic cloves.
Generally, like in your case, most of the musicians whose music I've liked also tended to come across as friendly and level-headed, and to remain so over the ensuing decades. The most notable exception to me was Bono, who started off OK but who started really grating on me in his interviews from about the late 80s, I suppose with U2 going "big time" - but I don't think that commercial success necessarily has that effect on people, because there are plenty of people who've not become grating as a result of making more than a good living out of music. And I suppose this is in the same bucket as how anyone reacts to professional success etc. I've known people who don't become insufferable if they achieve professional success, and also people who did become insufferable - e.g. an ex-schoolmate treating wait staff at a restaurant like dirt once he made a big salary - but he'd always had that in him, I think.
QuoteSo far, none of my fave musicians has gone and killed someone or uttered disgusting nonsense, which I'm kinda happy about.
ROFL! :rofl Yes, this is a good thing. And also to realise that in small things, we all err from time to time and need to be understanding of each other (as well as whip our own attitudes into shape when circumstances require it).
I was listening to an interview with Nigella Lawson the other day, on a show where the guest talks and gets to play their favourite music. She actually personally only likes music as a feelgood thing, not as a serious thing - she says if she wants to think and be serious, she reads a book, and music is something she has for dancing and feeling good.
Well, I like both books and music both for being serious and thinking, and also for feelgood effects. I think both are important, and that books and music are thankfully big enough to accommodate both!
To go out with a song here - because this is the song I immediately thought of when I saw your new topic title:
;)
Well, I gotta say I didn't like Mick Jagger much (back in the 80's and early 90's), I preferred Keith (he's "Mr Rock'n'roll" of course), but I looked at Mick with kinder eyes after a few good interviews (and seeing the Stones live in 2006)! :cool
From someone who used to work behind the scenes at different venues, I heard that Bob Dylan really is an a..., or at least (in her kinder words) "if you like his music, I recommend never meeting him". :lol:
Bob Dylan is...an aardvark? ...an autodidact? ...an android? ... :winking_tongue
There's many stories about Sinatra being a piece of work. However, he has his uses - his music was famously employed by a New York teacher to play to students on detention, to discourage them from needing to come back again - and it worked very well, apparently... :beaming-face
Ok, I won't buy any Sinatra albums then... ;)
Quote from: SueC on December 12, 2019, 18:04:49Bob Dylan is...an aardvark?
... an anarchist? :P
Let's just say he's "an awkward person". :neutral-face
Once I dreamed about meeting him and was surprised he was kind to me. XD
Now that is hilarious. :lol: I've only had two dreams involving music figures. One I related at the end of that Cure essay, about having a wardrobe malfunction (those dratted pyjama bottoms) and a surprise knock at the door and most confusingly it was the Smiths (not as in the band with the lead singer who, had I taught him, would have spent a lot of time removing bubble gum from the underside of desks, but as in Mr and Mrs) - who appeared to be lost, and got invited in for a cup of tea in a sort of reflex reaction because when you don't know what to do, it's good to switch into an available autopilot, and "Would you like a cup of tea?" is a readily available autopilot if you have civilised visitors. And because they actually wanted a cup of tea (each, presumably, but I couldn't tell you the details because the dream didn't get that far), I found myself walking backwards through the corridor because I had a big rip in my pyjama bottoms, and calling to my husband, "Bre-ett, please put the kettle on, I have to go change my pants!"
The other was a dream I had at age 16, where I was riding my horse from my parents' farm in Western Australia through the Swiss Alps to get to a place called Bunbury, which is a regional centre 80 km from said farm. I often rode my horse between the farm and Bunbury, through the state forests, but that day the Swiss Alps sort of appeared in the middle of it all, which made for a nice change of scenery. The reason I was riding to Bunbury is because a U2 concert was being held there, but a strange one - an acoustic gig at a pre-school. When I got to the gig, I had to find someone to hold my horse, and then when I got in, I started feeling that Bono was attempting to indoctrinate toddlers and that this was inappropriate. In the dream's grand finale, a toilet appeared in the middle of the auditorium, and don't ask me why, but I sat on it, and then became extremely embarrassed by the lack of cubicle, and trying to work out how to get upright again without making things even worse... :'(
Quote from: SueC on December 13, 2019, 11:52:21... I started feeling that Bono was attempting to indoctrinate toddlers and that this was inappropriate. In the dream's grand finale, a toilet appeared in the middle of the auditorium...
Nice dream(s)! :lol:
I think this part might bear the meaning that Bono talks a lot of shite...
Quote from: Ulrich on December 13, 2019, 17:37:27Quote from: SueC on December 13, 2019, 11:52:21... I started feeling that Bono was attempting to indoctrinate toddlers and that this was inappropriate. In the dream's grand finale, a toilet appeared in the middle of the auditorium...
Nice dream(s)! :lol:
I think this part might bear the meaning that Bono talks a lot of shite...
Hahaha I had this convo the other day- Bono seems to have this effect on people! I can't say I've listened to a word he said, I'm clueless where the hatred is stemming from?! Ignorant more likely.
Quote from: chemicaloverload on December 13, 2019, 19:57:04I'm clueless where the hatred is stemming from?!
U2 were quite alright (for a while at least), I've listened to some stuff...
Bongo (as some like to call him) has been "preaching" at times on stage (or off stage too), which kinda went on some people's nerves.
OMG,
@Ulrich, I'd never connected the toilet with that before! :-D :lol:
I can't
believe I never thought of that before. To me, that was just typical anxiety dream material - stemming from teenage days, where few things felt less potentially embarrassing than being caught with your pants down, or being walked in on while on the toilet. Whereas in maturity, I don't care about that very much, so it no longer figures as an anxiety element in my dreams. I mean, I've not dreamt about toilets in a long time. The wardrobe malfunction thing in that more recent dream might be vaguely related, but I think that was more about awkwardness, and what you might inflict upon others, rather than what might happen to you.
@chemicaloverload, U2 was my favourite band when I was a teenager, along with The Waterboys. Bono has gone on to have a grating effect on me, but Mike Scott hasn't. I still like a lot of their music, it's just this allergic thing that happens while watching interviews with the dude, and my husband has it too. I asked him to quantify and it's just the impression that he takes himself a bit seriously, and that he thinks he knows more than he actually does and doesn't come across as someone who regularly challenges their own world view. "Plus," says he, "rightly or wrongly, his glasses and the way he oils his hair back like a Mafioso just goes with all that perceived self-importance. The other people in the band seem fine - like regular dudes." (This was from a group interview we watched when U2 were in Australia recently.)
...on a farm, we might say, "Go talk to the mushrooms!" when someone is talking BS...
When I was studying, a recurring anxiety dream was that I overslept on exam day. I'd wake up at 10am and realise with cold horror that my exam started an hour ago and all the implications of that. Ever had that dream?
@Ulrich, do you have anxiety dreams about the natural world? ;) :winking_tongue
PS: This "like" thing still causes me consternation - just because I didn't click it doesn't mean I don't like it... when in Rome... Sometimes I think life would be simpler without a like button...
Talkin' of musicians who aren't exactly "beloved" all over the world, I give you: Metallica. (They got some flak for sueing their grandmothers for downloading...) "They're not honest guys." is one of the kindest quotes I found...
Quote from: SueC on December 13, 2019, 22:28:51Ulrich, do you have anxiety dreams about the natural world? ;) :winking_tongue
Well, what else can I say to this, but: "go talk to the mushrooms!"... :P
(I guess you won't "like" this post now, huh?) :1f633:
There you go, now I've gone and liked everything on this illustrious thread. :lol:
"Go talk to the mushrooms!" is a good one. :cool Imagine how the mushrooms of this world would grow if certain people talked to them. :angel
From the series "Musicians and, erm... looks"
Nick Cave circa 1983.
(https://i.imgur.com/s47jSb7.jpg)
Jarvis Cocker circa 1983.
(https://i.imgur.com/4sbjtVW.jpg)
David Bowie circa (I believe) 1990.
(https://i.imgur.com/QMLw89E.jpg)
Any thoughts?
Thought 1: Unless Nick Cave (and Robert Smith) slept suspended from the ceiling like bats when they had these hairstyles, this is not how they would have looked when they got out of bed in the morning (or should that be evening :angel).
I will have other thoughts later, but meanwhile, here's a good question - apologies about the poor audio - better audio of this track is on YT but not with the clip which so fits the purpose...
...and I just realised that's a repeat, but what the heck. :)
Quote from: Ulrich on February 07, 2020, 10:19:33Quote from: piggymirror on February 07, 2020, 02:07:25Any thoughts?
Can't see the point in this. :?
I can. We do this to students in exams all the time. :)
Can be used for creative writing jump-off, and can be used for media analysis, and also for cultural commentary, etc. It's open-ended.
I think
@piggymirror is saying, "What do you think?" in regards to things like styling, popular culture, audience positioning, personal opinion etc etc.
I could write 5,000 words on that no worries at all. :angel
Always looooved getting something like that to write about as a high schooler too! :cool
Quote from: SueC on February 07, 2020, 10:46:28I could write 5,000 words on that no worries at all. :angel
Feel free to do so! No problems.
Well he asked, so I told what I thought: that I can't see the point in this post in a topic about attitudes (but each to their own etc.)!
When I first saw the post it appeared to be in its own topic (in the post list), using the title that's now on top of the post; then someone merged it - either he did it himself (delete / re-post) or it was re-allocated here. It probably would have been better as its own topic but it's not totally impossible here. Then again I take a wide view of such things. :angel
So, in response to those photos, a few more random thoughts.
{Thought 1 (reiterated): Unless Nick Cave (and Robert Smith) slept suspended from the ceiling like bats when they had these hairstyles, this is not how they would have looked when they got out of bed in the morning (or should that be evening :angel).}
Thought 2: This kind of hairstyle is not very aerodynamic. We've seen photos of Simon Gallup from a similar era as the Nick Cave photo, with an even more luxuriant coiffure. We understand he's quite a serious recreational cyclist, and as fellow recreational cyclists have wondered how much that kind of hairstyle took off his top speed on the road (or added to it if he had a tailwind :beaming-face ). Unless, of course, Britain also has compulsory helmet wearing on bicycles (Australia does). In which case, we wondered if he needed a slightly bigger helmet to accommodate all of that, even squashed down.
Thought 3: My environmental science side wonders at the cumulative impact of such hairstyles on the ozone layer before CFCs were removed from spray cans. Did the 1980s present an especially big spike in ozone depletion because of hair fashions at the time?
I'm afraid I still don't have anything serious today about anything because my brain is still recovering from the heatwave (cool change came through today). :oops:
To get back (at least vaguely) to the original topic, here's what famous songwriter Bob Dylan had to say about it in a recent Q&A:
QuoteWhat do you think about the current debate separating the art from the artist? Do you think a "weakness of character" can hold a songwriter back?
People of weak character are usually con artists and troublemakers; they aren't sincere, and I don't think they would make good songwriters. They're selfish, always got to have the last word on everything, and I don't know any songwriter like that. I'm unaware of the current debate about separating the art from the artist. It's news to me. Maybe it's an academic thing.
https://www.bobdylan.com/news/bob-dylan-interviewed-by-wall-street-journals-jeff-slate/
I'm pretty certain Mr Dylan has met lots more songwriters than I ever will... so I trust him with this. :angel
And another "goodie" - what's it like if "artificial intelligence" does attempt to write lyrics?
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/jan/17/this-song-sucks-nick-cave-responds-to-chatgpt-song-written-in-style-of-nick-cave
QuoteNick Cave has dissected a song produced by the viral chatbot software ChatGPT "written in the style of Nick Cave", calling it "bullshit" and "a grotesque mockery of what it is to be human".
Writing in his newsletter the Red Hand Files on Monday, Cave responded to a fan called Mark in New Zealand, who had sent him a song written by ChatGPT. The artificial intelligence, which can be directed to impersonate the style of specific individuals, was used by Mark to create a song "in the style of Nick Cave".
Filled with dark biblical imagery, ChatGPT's song included the chorus: "I am the sinner, I am the saint / I am the darkness, I am the light ..."
"Writing a good song is not mimicry, or replication, or pastiche, it is the opposite," he wrote. "It is an act of self-murder that destroys all one has strived to produce in the past. It is those dangerous, heart-stopping departures that catapult the artist beyond the limits of what he or she recognises as their known self.
"This is part of the authentic creative struggle that precedes the invention of a unique lyric of actual value; it is the breathless confrontation with one's vulnerability, one's perilousness, one's smallness, pitted against a sense of sudden shocking discovery; it is the redemptive artistic act that stirs the heart of the listener, where the listener recognizes in the inner workings of the song their own blood, their own struggle, their own suffering."
Thanks to an article in "Time" magazine, this book about the topic has come to my attention (I haven't got it yet, but it seems interesting):
"Monsters - A Fan's Dilemma" by Claire Dederer
QuoteClaire Dederer asks: Can we love the work of Hemingway, Polanski, Miles Davis, or Picasso? Should we love it? Does genius deserve special dispensation? Is male monstrosity the same as female monstrosity? Does art have a mandate to depict the darker elements of the psyche? And what happens if the artist stares too long into the abyss? She explores the audience's relationship with artists from Woody Allen to Michael Jackson, asking: How do we balance our undeniable sense of moral outrage with our equally undeniable love of the work? In a more troubling vein, she wonders if an artist needs to be a monster in order to create something great. And if an artist is also a mother, does one identity inexorably, and fatally, interrupt the other? Highly topical, morally wise, honest to the core, Monsters is certain to incite a conversation about whether and how we can separate artists from their art.
"Superb ... smart, informed, nuanced and very funny."
—Maureen Corrigan, Fresh Air
"Dederer, author of the restless and lusty Gen-X memoir Love and Trouble: A Midlife Reckoning, just keeps getting better and smarter. In Monsters, she ties herself in intellectual and emotional knots, poking holes in her own arguments with gusto. In contrast to so many nonfiction books adapted from articles, Monsters doesn't stretch a singular thesis over several hundred pages. Quite the contrary, it's absolutely exhilarating to read the work of someone so willing to crumple up her own argument like a piece of paper, throw it away and start anew. She's constantly challenging her own assumptions, more than willing to find flaws in her own thinking."
—San Francisco Chronicle
"Conversational, clear and bold without being strident... Dederer showcases her critical acumen...In this age of moral policing, Ms. Dederer's instincts to approach such material with an open mind—and heart—are laudable."
—The Wall Street Journal
https://www.clairedederer.com/monsters
Gotta admit, I haven't liked R. Waters' attitude since the late 80s, things worsened when a "friend" played me his solo album in '92 and I didn't like it much at all...
https://english.elpais.com/culture/2023-02-09/the-never-ending-pink-floyd-feud.html
QuoteThis is the latest episode in a feud that began in 1984, when Waters announced that he was leaving the group. Having dominated the band since 1978 with autobiographical albums such as The Wall (1979), as far as he was concerned, his departure automatically implied the end of Pink Floyd. But, to his surprise, the other two band members, Gilmour and drummer Nick Mason, decided to press on without him, even bringing back keyboardist Rick Wright, whom Waters had thrown out.
In the almost 40 intervening years, the conflict has played out through lawyers and in the media, with discussions as Byzantine as the sex of the inflatable pig that appeared on the cover of Animals (1977): since it was his idea, Waters wanted to ban its use by the new Pink Floyd, prompting his old band mates to add male genitals to what was originally a female sow. True, there have been moments of truce, such as the reappearance of the classic lineup in 2005, in London's Hyde Park, as part of Live 8, a series of benefit concerts organized by Bob Geldof for famine relief in Africa. And Gilmour was also persuaded to perform alongside Waters on a couple of subsequent occasions.
...
Waters explains that his about-turn is due to information provided by a Cypriot podcast, but also acknowledges that he felt insulted when his former colleagues resurrected Pink Floyd's name for their song Hey, Hey, Rise Up!, which features vocals by Ukranian pop star Andriy Khlyvnyuk, the proceeds of which were given to charity. According to Waters, referencing the Ukrainian patriotic song and having it performed by Khlyvnyuk is an invitation to prolong the war.
Recently, he apparently told part of his own audience to "f... off":
https://www.rollingstone.de/verpisst-euch-fans-verlassen-konzerthalle-nachdem-roger-waters-sie-beschimpfte-2649133/
:unamused:
In the book by Robby Krieger about his life with The Doors, I found these "words of wisdom" (it's about the creation of their song "Lighy my fire"):
QuoteJim (Morrison) always told me not to tell people the meaning behind my lyrics. "Let them interpret it. Sometimes they will come up with a better idea than you had."
It was a rarity at the time to construct a pop song that way. ...
I'm glad I didn't know more about music theory at the time; otherwise I might not have had the guts to break the rules.
Another interesting thought about "songwriting" by Nick Cave (again):
QuotePart of being a songwriter is to forever live in a state of trepidation as to what the next song may bring. Newness, authenticity, truth – each comes with its own inherent danger. What will the new song reveal about ourselves? What will it expose? This may seem odd to some, because one would assume that the songwriter has control over how the song ends up – don't we just write what we want to write? But I have come to understand that the feeling of creative control is an illusion, that the songs are predetermined and have their own destiny, that they are not our own.
Read more at:
https://www.theredhandfiles.com/what-do-i-do-with-these-songs/