curefans.com

Off-Topic => Something else => Topic started by: dsanchez on February 23, 2020, 23:47:08

Title: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on February 23, 2020, 23:47:08
QuoteMore than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover, 14% have severe disease including pneumonia and shortness of breath, 5% have critical disease including respiratory failure, septic shock and multi-organ failure, and 2% of cases are fatal," Tedros said in Geneva. "The risk of death increases the older you are.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/17/coronavirus-causes-mild-disease-in-four-in-five-patients-says-who
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on February 29, 2020, 16:02:23
Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases by Johns Hopkins CSSE

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 01, 2020, 10:06:12
Thanks for these factual-based postings (very unlike many "panic" postings in other forums over the world)!  :smth023
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 01, 2020, 14:03:26
Yeah, we both got swine flu back in the day and it was just a mild illness for us, no respiratory symptoms, just muscle ache and fatigue.  The interesting thing about this one was that after a week, it got better, then disappeared and you thought that was it, and then it would come back again, for a couple of rotations.

Whereas last year we had a non-mass-media publicised strain of influenza that knocked us for six and we were both bedridden with it for an entire fortnight, which has never happened to us before.  Took another month to get over properly and was the worst flu by far we ever had.  The severity profile for coronavirus is about the same as for a moderately bad strain of flu - most people won't be very ill, some will be, and a couple out of every 100 that get it (especially elderly, very young or immunocompromised) will die from it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 04, 2020, 11:39:00
Text only in German, from a column at "gmx.de", sad but true:

Quote...im globalen Dorf grassiert das Coronafieber. Und die Dorfbewohner – angeführt von ihren Leitmedien – nähern sich kollektiv dem Gemütszustand einer milden Winterpanik. Menschliche Sensationsgier und mediale Übertreibungslust haben mit vereinten Kräften eine Psychose herbeigeführt, gegen die das Gegengift der Aufklärung derzeit keine Chancen hat. Die Zahl der Corona-Live-Ticker auf den Online-Portalen übertrifft deutlich die Zahl der Verdachtsfälle. Die Vernunft steht weltweit unter Quarantäne.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 05, 2020, 09:25:25
Well, this is in English - funny but true.  ;)  :D

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2020/01/report-outbreak-of-idiocy-spreading-10000-times-faster-than-coronavirus/

QuotePublic health officials in Toronto have confirmed its first 50,000 cases of being a misinformed fuckwit as xenophobic conspiracy theories and tales of false cures continue to spread across social media.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 06, 2020, 09:21:15
Thanks for that hilarious link, @Ulrich!   :smth023  :cool


QuotePatients are usually asymptomatic (for stupidity) until they open their mouths or start tweeting.

:lol:


QuoteOur epidemiologists are working hard to identify idiot zero, but there might be more sporadic outbreaks of coronavirus-related imbecility," added Dr. Smith.

Meanwhile, health officials are dreading teaching the population a complicated prevention technique: washing your hands.

:rofl

PS: If idiocy exasperates you, here's two great antidotes:

The Darwin Awards:  https://darwinawards.com/

The IgNobel Awards:  https://www.improbable.com/ig-about/winners/
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on March 08, 2020, 14:30:25

Things are getting weird.
Here's a fight that took place in an Australian supermarket... about toilet paper 🙄
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on March 08, 2020, 14:58:11
Quote from: word_on_a_wing on March 08, 2020, 14:30:25Here's a fight that took place in an Australian supermarket... about toilet paper 🙄

stupid people everywhere...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 08, 2020, 17:59:40
Quote from: dsanchez on March 08, 2020, 14:58:11stupid people everywhere...

Yeah, plus it makes me wonder: why do they need toilet paper? When they got their trousers full already...  :P
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 09, 2020, 04:05:41
Honestly, it's ridiculous.  This morning we went grocery shopping and the entire aisle of toilet paper was sold out.  I think people are confusing coronavirus with cholera, and expecting rampant diarrhoea and/or toilet paper manufacturing shortages.  We didn't need any toilet paper anyway because we always buy bulk packs because it's more cost-effective and uses less packaging (due to the reduced surface area to volume ratio of bulk packs).

The authorities have simply suggested having two weeks' worth of groceries, hygiene and medical supplies, mostly in case you get ill and should then stay at home (coronavirus or not - people should really do this with any flu or cold but do they, oh no, they go spread it charitably to all their workmates and go sneezing along in supermarkets instead of staying home in bed with a book and a mug of tea until they stop shedding pathogens, and if people didn't do that, there'd be over 80% less people catching cold and flu).

The other thing supermarkets are running out of here is bulk packs of rice.  Apparently, people expect they'll be wiping their bottoms more than usual and eating lots of risotto when the outbreak hits Australia.  Brett thought a legitimate reason for Australians wiping their bottoms more than usual is that several years ago, we overtook America as the most obese country in the world, so he says there are now more square centimeters of bottom to wipe per individual on average.

By the way, it wouldn't matter if we were unable to buy toilet paper for a year, or ever again.  We have compost toilets and are always looking for ways to repurpose worn-out cotton or linen shirts or bedsheets.  You can cut these into squares and used them as handkerchiefs, for example, and I have some really pretty hankies made from my favourite worn-out pyjama pants, with clouds all over them.  Natural fabrics do very well in a compost toilet system - but don't try to flush them down conventional toilets (you can, however, treat them like you would cloth nappies, and I know some hippies who do this as a matter of course).

Toilet paper is actually a relatively recent invention.  A hundred years ago, in Australia, most people were using squares of old newspaper hung off a nail in their outhouses.  Kids used to cut the newspapers into squares and hole-punch them.  It's not as if this wouldn't be possible to do again.  I don't understand why people don't think laterally and use their imaginations...

...and use their commonsense and not spread illnesses around just because they're not the current sensational news...  :1f62b:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 09, 2020, 09:17:12
How many cases does Australia have anyway?
I mean it's still late summer (early autumn) there? Because they say in Europe, with spring coming and the sun and UV rays intensifying, the hope is that the virus won't spread that easily any more.
(Which, btw, makes open air festivals in summer likely to happen.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on March 09, 2020, 12:06:22
Quote from: Ulrich on March 09, 2020, 09:17:12I mean it's still late summer (early autumn) there? Because they say in Europe, with spring coming and the sun and UV rays intensifying, the hope is that the virus won't spread that easily any more.

if it's like the flu, it might be like that, fingers crossed!

QuoteThe flu season in the U.S. can begin as early as October, but usually does not get into full swing until December. The season generally reaches its peak in February and ends in March (2). In the southern hemisphere, however, where winter comes during our summer months, the flu season falls between June and September. In other words, wherever there is winter, there is flu (3). In fact, even its name, "influenza" may be a reference to its original Italian name, influenza di freddo, meaning "influence of the cold" (4).

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2014/the-reason-for-the-season-why-flu-strikes-in-winter/
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 09, 2020, 12:44:39
Quote from: Ulrich on March 09, 2020, 09:17:12How many cases does Australia have anyway?
I mean it's still late summer (early autumn) there?

In WA, a handful, brought in by travellers, so far mostly confined to being transmitted to spouses, while in self-isolation:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-09/fifth-case-of-coronavirus-confirmed-in-wa/12038696

Traditionally though, cold and flu season will start around May here, so that's when new viruses like this too will be expected to spike.

PS:  One of my honorary sisters just sent me this:

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIF.Br43nfTKfvJyj0XuhtnqTg%26pid%3DApi&f=1)

ROFL :lol:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on March 10, 2020, 11:59:57
Sue your location in rural WA Australia is likely to be useful in such a situation as this! :)

Australia today has 100people diagnosed with Coronavirus, and while most are travellers from overseas there has now been cases of local transmission.  NSW has greatest number (54). Here in Australia there's 18 cases.

Yes David the flu season seems relevant ... Here's something I read today
"A plan published by the Victorian Government to outline its response to the outbreak, says modelling shows a coronavirus pandemic is likely to coincide with Australia's flu season.
It says "the effects of both diseases may be felt simultaneously".

The Victorian Premier spoke today.
https://www.abc.net.au (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-10/victorian-premier-daniel-andrews-on-coronavirus-pandemic-plans/12042780)
His statements give the impression some big changes are likely to occur in coming weeks, at least in the state I'm in.
...this is all feeling a bit surreal

What's happening in places where the rest of you live?
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 10, 2020, 12:23:37
Quote from: word_on_a_wing on March 10, 2020, 11:59:57Sue your location in rural WA Australia is likely to be useful in such a situation as this! :)

It would be if we didn't have to go anywhere!  :)  But my husband works at a medical practice and is bound to be exposed sooner or later, since general medical practices don't have the same biosecurity as places like Ebola units in specialist hospitals.  Their general precautions, including making patients with respiratory symptoms wear masks in the waiting room (which they have done for years), cuts down the rate of illness amongst staff, but staff still get ill on a fairly regular basis (and that's despite flu shots, which aren't perfect, and don't cover colds etc either).

Added to that, we host international travellers in our farmstay on a regular basis.

So I think it's only a matter of time before at least one of us gets it, but the longer we can delay that (hand-washing and other hygiene precautions, avoiding crowds etc), the better - and it would be great if a vaccine came out in the interim.  Eventually, COVID-19 will be like the "older" viruses and the population will get some immunity to it (coronaviruses aren't new, just COVID-19 is).

We both got Influenza A H1N1 (Swine flu) about a decade ago, but it was a pretty mild illness for us.  We're hoping that we'd be in the 80% of the population for whom COVID-19 is a mild illness - and the best way to increase our chances of that is to stay healthy and fit and eat well, sleep well etc, so that our immune systems are in good order, like they were for H1N1.

Best wishes to all of you!  :cool

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 10, 2020, 14:04:42
Quote from: word_on_a_wing on March 10, 2020, 11:59:57What's happening in places where the rest of you live?

Not a lot in towns/cities nearby.
There was a case a while ago in Goeppingen (person had been abroad), he had been to the cinema - they found all the people from his row and close; but no-one was tested positive on C. (In the meantime, this person has left the hospital and spends a few days at home, before restarting "normal life".)

In other parts of Germany it's worse. Some schools closed, some companies too. Exhibitions and conferences are being cancelled by the minute... Hotels etc. already experience low bookings.

Some Politicians say any events with more than 1000 people should be cancelled. (This will eventually be decided by local authorities.)

(On a sidenote: we will just have to wait and see whether any big festivals in spring/summer won't happen. This is for the organisers and/or local authorities to decide.)

In Italy, whole areas are being closed off. People are being told to stay at home. Austria closed border to Italy.

Stock exchange reacted nervously (as usual, when anything happens)... :1f629:

Edit: news just in is that at this point in time there are more people in Germany who recovered from C. than people who're sick.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 10, 2020, 14:21:03
I was thinking, are there any special tricks any of you use to reduce your risk of catching infections, other than the recommended practices the health authorities remind us of every flu season?  Official recommendations are generally about reducing the rate of pathogen transmission from one person to another.  I'm thinking of things you might do to help your immune system work effectively (e.g. stress reduction methods that work well for you - like meditation, @word_on_a_wing? - and particular attention to healthy eating, etc).

When I broke three bones in my foot 18 months ago, I was seriously worried.  I'm in my late 40s, one of the fractures was displaced, bones in the hands and feet are notoriously hard to heal, and the average recovery time for this injury was posted at 12 - 16 weeks, if you're under 40 and in good health.  I was in good health, but not under 40, and since serious walking and hiking is one of my major hobbies, the idea of ending up with any sorts of complications that would affect my walking was a real concern to me.  So I read up on specialist nutrition for bone healing and found that the majority of Australians are now running borderline Vitamin D deficiencies because of slip/slop/slap (avoiding sun exposure) becoming widely adopted.  This is an issue for immunity, and also for bone healing.  Also, it's important if you're trying to mend bones quickly, that you have the necessary amino acids available in your bloodstream - miss one, and the whole process is interrupted until the missing link arrives.  So I made sure I had small amounts of complete protein at every meal (eggs, dairy, meat, fish, the right combinations of plant proteins), and that my snacks included complete proteins as well; and I took Vitamin D supplements, as well as betacarotene, Vitamin C, and Vitamin E, on top of having a disgustingly healthy diet with lots of fresh fruit and vegetables, nuts and berries, and wholemeal everything, and avoiding excessive sugar / added sugar etc.

I stayed hydrated (lots of green tea) and got extra sleep and rest - and I worked very hard to maintain my fitness in my one-legged state.  I bought an iWALK 2.0 (see https://iwalk-free.com/product-introduction/) on recommendation of an online friend so that I could walk around on that hands-free, so that I'd not have to rehabilitate my affected leg from the knee up, just from the knee down, once I was allowed to bear weight again.  If you're on crutches, you're not using the major muscle groups in your body, so it's hard to stay fit, and you're making yourself susceptible to secondary injuries to your shoulders and hands.

Anyway, every time I went to the fracture clinic for another review (two-week intervals), my orthopaedic consultant was super happy with how I was healing up.  At 5 weeks post-fracture I was starting partial weight-bearing indoors because my body felt ready, and at my 6-week appointment I was officially cleared for full weight-bearing and told I could wear hiking boots instead of that astronaut boot you're in for early recovery - and the specialist brought in some juniors and spoke glowingly of my recovery, which was way ahead of expectations - "She just does all the right things!  I wish all patients were like this!"  The consultant physiotherapist said, "Great!  You won't need me - but here's some exercises you can do that you may not have thought of!"

That night I went home, and my husband and I did a 5km walk at rapid pace, in which I used my crutches in the manner of ski poles, like Nordic walking - so that I could support my injured foot in the breakover phase, and get properly out of breath at the same time.  This became daily routine, and by 8 weeks breakover didn't hurt anymore and I no longer used the crutches (and I also got back on my horse that week).  Then we started hill training, and by 10 weeks we were back in the mountains.  Compare that to the 12-16 week projected recovery time...

I'm using that as an example to illustrate that there's a lot we can do to help our bodies cope with various challenges, and that this makes a real difference.  I'm going to be adopting a similar nutrition protocol as for bone healing, for boosting my immunity and general health, during this virus season.  Last year I didn't do that, because I got careless, and ended up with a bad flu, and then one thing after the other.  That's not fun, and that's not how I'm going to do it this year.

Because I worked in high schools for 15 years, and initially picked up lots of colds and flus (infectious disease central, plus 60-hour high-stress weeks), a doctor at the time gave me some advice that really worked for me.  One, don't touch your face, don't scratch any itches, etc - and wash your hands a lot.  Two, try using a cold-sore prevention formula because it has benefits for fighting a range of viruses other than the herpes simplex virus it officially addresses.  It's Vitamin C, zinc and lysine.  Blackmores do one called Lyp-Sine; chemists do generic copies.  I was to take one a day; but go to full dose at the slightest niggle in my throat etc.  This reduced the incidence of getting cold or flu to less than one a year for me, and nothing very severe.  So, unless these things are out of stock, I'm going to do that again as well.

And, if you're getting ill, go to bed with a cup of tea and a book - don't wait for it to get bad first.  That way, you can fight it better and recover faster.

Anyone else here have things that have worked for them?
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 11, 2020, 09:13:51
Among all the news from Germany, Italy etc. it almost disappears, but yesterday I read: China reports that it had only 19 new cases. Which sounds like it's getting better there.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 11, 2020, 10:02:53
Here's a recent update on the Australian (and general) situation by Dr Norman Swan, who runs our health report on the ABC. This is a decent, non-sensationalised source. Short video here:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-09/dr-norman-swan-with-a-coronavirus-reality-check/12040538
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on March 11, 2020, 11:22:08
"I'm thinking of things you might do to help your immune system work effectively (e.g. stress reduction methods that work well for you - like meditation, @word_on_a_wing? - and particular attention to healthy eating, etc)."

I'd lean more towards a pranayam (breathing) practice. A good one is here:

Pranayam  (https://www.spiritrisingyoga.org/kundalini-info/breath-of-fire)

Thanks for the tip about VitC, Zinc and Lysine. I have been taking VitC but not the others- will look out for it.

I find ginger helps. Either by simmering fresh ginger to make tea, or to juice it with vegetables such as carrot, beetroot, and celery.

I also find plenty Of SLEEP essential  ...I tend to get sick if I haven't been getting enough


Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 11, 2020, 12:31:19
Yeah, I totally second ginger, I find that really helpful too, @word_on_a_wing (and that juice combination sounds delicious :yum:)!  I make a ginger-nut-citrus-wholemeal flour-honey cake I eat instead of muesli bars, which are not particularly healthy food (although you can make your own with a reasonable nutritional profile).  I make that with freshly grated ginger, and we also throw a lot of ginger in our stir-fries.  I put it in my Chai tea (which I make with star anise, cloves, cardamon pods and thin slices of root ginger added to green tea) and Brett puts it in his black tea.   Oh, and he was trawling through a soup book and found the most delicious carrot-ginger soup which I'm happy to post the recipe for (we could start a whole thread!), it's so nice, and such a pick-me-up!

I know you're vegetarian, but a friend 20 years ago gave me her recipe for Thai beef salad which to me is like resurrection food - the dressing is chock full of lemon and lime juice, olive oil, garlic, fresh leaf coriander, mint and fish sauce, and has lemongrass and chilli in it too.  I wonder if you could apply that dressing to another salad with an acceptable vegetarian source of complete protein that would complement it in flavour.  Anyway, apart from obviously beef strips, the original has red onion, lots of snowpeas, whatever other salad vegetables you like (cucumber goes well here), and freshly ground pepper in the mix.

Another favourite pick-me-up food is Moroccan Harira, which I make both vegetarian and lamb versions of.  Again, loads of vegetables and herbs, plus lentils and chickpeas - it's traditional Ramadan food, to see people through daytime fasting, so it's got to be very nutritious to do that.

Food is definitely medicinal if done well.  :cool

And I fall apart unless I have 8 - 9 hours of sleep a night (or equivalent daytime naps in summer, when I get up early).

Thanks for the breathing thoughts! :)  Whenever I've done yoga or Pilates classes, my teacher was always telling us how important that is!  And that's probably another reason why singing in a choir is so good for you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 12, 2020, 01:22:36
@word_on_a_wing and I have both noticed that Australians are emptying stores of toilet paper.  This led another Australian on my other forum to post a picture I wish to share:

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2F1s%2F2020%2F03%2F03%2F22%2F25501880-8071359-image-a-12_1583275201951.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)

It's sourced from this thread: https://www.horseforum.com/general-off-topic-discussion/covid-19-different-containment-approaches-around-812919/

It's a pretty good discussion, not just for its humour and commonsense, but because we have participants who are emergency department nurses, translators of pulmonary medicine papers, etc etc.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 13, 2020, 12:04:29
Most concerts and other events for March and April have been cancelled here in southern Germany.
Let's hope in May things will be back to a little bit more "normal".
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on March 13, 2020, 12:56:32
Same, in Australia as of Monday there will be cancellations of gatherings of more than 500 people (so this includes music and sports events).

I have a ticket to see New Order tomorrow night, in a 13,000 capacity venue. They cancelled the show the following night but not tomorrow. The one tomorrow night is outdoors, and I have a seat (so won't be squashed between people) so that gives me some peace of mind.

But I'm really debating whether to go or not ...really not keen to get the virus and risk spreading it to others (particularly my older parents). 
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on March 13, 2020, 18:01:53
They just closed the country...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-12/slovakia-closes-borders-for-non-residents-to-fight-coronavirus
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 13, 2020, 18:33:27
In Stuttgart, all bars, clubs, museums etc. are being closed. (Exception: restaurants.)
(We'll have to see for how long.)
Schools here will be closed from Monday until April 18th.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: BiscuityBoyle on March 13, 2020, 19:47:38
Made me laugh

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESe9W3QU8AAGTVk?format=jpg&name=360x360)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 14, 2020, 12:12:07
Humorous things are circulating...

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi2.wp.com%2Fthefunnybeaver.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F03%2Fcoronavirus-gollum.jpg%3Fresize%3D835%252C700%26ssl%3D1&f=1&nofb=1)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on March 14, 2020, 13:15:54
Today in Bratislava...

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 15, 2020, 01:04:26
I'm a member of the grassroots people-power political organisation GetUp which is fighting the corporate buy-off of our democracy in Australia, and other nasty phenomena like that.  I was very pleased to find the line they are taking in this email to all members on COVID-19 in my inbox this morning, and thought I would share it because it's good advice.


QuoteThrough the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, our movement of over a million people needs to respond with love and compassion for everyone in our community. Whether it's checking on your neighbours, standing up to racism and stigma or proactively taking measures to reduce the spread - we all have a role to play. Can you stand with me, help protect our communities, fight misinformation and encourage care? Keep reading to find out how.

----

Sue,

This is one of the biggest challenges we've faced.

As coronavirus continues to spread across Australia, I know that the coming days and weeks will be tough and full of uncertainty for so many of us.

For older Australians and people with underlying health conditions, for whom this virus is very serious.1

For casual, gig economy, and contract workers who are still being pushed to choose between putting their colleagues at risk and putting food on the table.

For those on income support struggling to get everyday items from supermarkets as panic buying worsens.2

For the Chinese and Asian communities who are facing growing racism and xenophobia, being harrassed in the streets, online and even at work.3

It's clear that in times like this, we need to respond as a community, care for each other and do what we can to help. From calling neighbours who might need the company, to proactively practicing social distancing to minimise the spread.

As a million-strong people-powered movement, what we do now matters. For those of us that can afford to take extra precautions, let's do a bit more. Together, we can protect our communities, fight misinformation and instead encourage care for our neighbours.

Head here to get the latest health information and updates, and share with your family and friends:
https://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/covid-19/coronavirus-what-you-need-to-know/coronavirus-what-you-need-to-know?t=KEXRXcMAn&utm_campaign=Coronavirus&utm_content=28683&utm_medium=email&utm_source=blast

Right now, everyday heroes, helpers and public institutions are stepping up. From our dedicated healthcare workers on the frontline, to vital updates and coverage from the ABC and CSIRO scientists working to help develop a vaccine.4

These coming weeks and months are about those of us who can, doing a little more. It's about:

Responding as a community
Whether it's calling out racism towards the Chinese community, or taking extra precautions to keep yourself and family away from events and crowds to stop the spread. This is a time for solidarity.

Caring for ourselves and each other
Through this time, we need to support each other. Calling elderly neighbours, making sure people who are self-isolating have supplies and (digital) company, doing what we can to minimise the spread and minimise the risk for those most vulnerable.

Calling out misinformation
The tabloids and social media continue to spread misinformation and fear. Together, we need to call this out, and make sure it's the sensible advice from medical experts that dominate.


We know that coronavirus has already had a huge impact on the economy, but the government's stimulus package doesn't go far enough in boosting the social safety net for the people who need it most. We'll be working on this now and in the lead up to the May budget to make sure the budget responses to this crisis are focused on those that need it most.

Whatever comes next, we're all in this together. Now is the time for solidarity. Now is the time to come together with love and compassion.

Onwards,

Paul for the GetUp team

P.S As coronavirus continues to unfold, we want to hear from you Sue about how the GetUp community can be supporting each other, and what we can be doing to help. Can you take this short, 2 minute survey and let us know what you think?

P.P.S I keep thinking about the words of World Health Organisation chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, "We're in this together, to do the right things with calm and protect the citizens of the world. It's doable."

References:
[1] Q&A on coronaviruses (COVID-19), World Health Organisation, 9 March 2020.
[2] 'Selfish' stockpiling of cheap food staples is hurting low-income earners, The New Daily, 6 March 2020.
[3] As coronavirus fears spread, Chinese restaurants are reporting an 80pc drop in business, ABC, 13 February 2020.
[4] Working against the new coronavirus, CSIRO, 13 March 2020.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on March 15, 2020, 02:27:39
I just heard the Sydney Vivid festival has been cancelled for this year.  ...So thankful all this wasn't happening this time last year (Disintegration! 🙌)


I decided not to go to the New Order concert last night. I have been feeling very fatigued/run-down so thought it best to play it safe and get more rest. 
When I see photos/videos of last night gig I think it was the right choice: thousands of people, very packed.
If it had been The Cure it would have likely been a different situation (as I'm a much bigger fan of The Cure than New Order)... that would have been a difficult choice.

It was interesting to see all the discussions on the Twitter feed of New Order and the tour promoter (Frontier) yesterday. Many people were getting quite outraged, saying it was irresponsible to let the concert go ahead; whereas others were very thankful it wasn't cancelled.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 15, 2020, 07:16:57
First Dog On The Moon:

(https://media.guim.co.uk/63e09a3ad2e511f290839420b804a07a124764df/0_0_3508_6087/3508.jpg)

...from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/26/coronavirus-is-very-bad-and-needs-to-be-avoided-here-are-some-handy-hints-to-stick-on-your-fridge-and-forget
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 15, 2020, 12:54:46
Quote from: word_on_a_wing on March 15, 2020, 02:27:39It was interesting to see all the discussions on the Twitter feed of New Order and the tour promoter (Frontier) yesterday. Many people were getting quite outraged, saying it was irresponsible to let the concert go ahead; whereas others were very thankful it wasn't cancelled.

Yeah, that happens all over the place. On FB I am befriended with a promoter (doing small-scale gigs in clubs with 150 guests mostly, only rarely a bigger show of up to 1000), one guy was kinda "attacking" him for not listening to his advice of taking a break for 2 months (the authorities have now closed all clubs anyway, so he was right to wait for something "official"; there were no gigs planned for these last few days anyway). That one guy now considers this "irresponsible" - it turned it he never goes to these concerts as he lives elsewhere... in my eyes this behaviour is pretty close to "trolling" (I'd have removed him my from my list).  :unamused:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on March 16, 2020, 10:26:01
Bratislava during the coronavirus outbreak (filmed with my GoPro)

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on March 16, 2020, 12:42:29
A really interesting simulation that show the effect of social distancing. After watching this I understand it much more, and why it works better than quarantine...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/corona-simulator/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/corona-simulator/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 16, 2020, 14:14:58
That's a fabulous link, @word_on_a_wing!  Thanks for posting.   :smth023

I just logged on to suggest a piece of jewellery that might help with social distancing.   :angel

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.H78PGjVcEYWwBMXfz_3DkgHaJ_%26pid%3DApi&f=1)

It will keep people at arm's length, and give you a steady supply of antivirals / immune boosters / miscellaneous nutrients to munch on...  :winking_tongue
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 16, 2020, 15:37:36
Quote from: dsanchez on March 16, 2020, 10:26:01Bratislava during the coronavirus outbreak (filmed with my GoPro)

You appear to be travelling significantly above 30km/h!  :cool

The architecture in the old part of town is lovely.  Thank you very much for the virtual tour.  I've never been to Bratislava before!
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on March 17, 2020, 12:10:00
I'm curious to what extent others are socially distancing?

My brother's workplace is now from home (his work is all on a computer so it's possible).

I work in a health care setting (mental health) so this work currently can't be done from home. It looks likely I'll still need to go to the office, but with client contact increasingly via phone/Skype etc.
Ideally I'd prefer to be able to socially isolate... From all I can see it seems the best choice at a time like this.
I'm also feeling a bit worried Australia isn't doing enough. We should be doing similar to countries who were able to achieve flattened curves like Singapore. I would fully embrace more drastic actions occurring, shut everything down as much as possible ...stay home people!
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 17, 2020, 13:03:33
Quote from: word_on_a_wing on March 17, 2020, 12:10:00I'm curious to what extent others are socially distancing?

My brother's workplace is now from home (his work is all on a computer so it's possible).

My brother-in-law is also working at his "home office" now (my sister has been doing so anyway for a few days a week - her usual "visits" to the company are now being reduced). Their kids are at home (schools will be closed until after Easter).

I'm self-employed, so I basically work from here (next door) anyway. Trouble is my customers mostly do own stores and need people to come in (which not many will do now), thus I reckon not much work will come in.

Might have to do some shopping at times (maybe for my mother too).

Apart from going to concerts or cinema, I didn't go out that much anyway. As clubs and cinemas are closed now, I don't even have to think about going.
Going for a walk/hike is still possible under the circumstances (and they tell people they can go out and do "jogging" or whatever). On Sunday I already walked in an area in which I saw only few people from afar.

Other than that, I'm probably restricted to staying in, maybe doing a bit of garden work, contact friends via email, letter, phone & forums. Plus I might do more of these (usual) acitivities: reading, listening to music, watching movies & series...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on March 17, 2020, 13:20:05
Can you get shopping home delivered Ulrich?
Here they do that for a small fee, and you can choose for it to be left (so you don't have contact with the delivery person).

I'm wondering if Sue is still doing AirBNB?

I'm feeling a bit frustrated about my parents being a bit set in their ways. My Mum was at bingo tonight where everyone was sitting close together (not the advised 1 1/2 metres apart). I gave her hand sanitizer last week and she keeps forgetting to use it. Plus she has a heart condition. ...I feel the urge to lock her in the house to stop her going out unnecessarily! I've had to settle for a strongly worded plea, combined with using disinfectant throughout their house!
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 17, 2020, 14:06:06
Quote from: word_on_a_wing on March 17, 2020, 13:20:05Can you get shopping home delivered Ulrich?

We could (I guess). But I can imagine they've got more of those now than usual (i.e. they might be overbooked). I will look into this later. Right now there are no cases known in this town (*), my mum still goes to the shop on her own. My sister has already offered to go shopping for her.

(* and 13 known cases in the whole region, more than 1100 cases in our federal state)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 17, 2020, 15:51:48
Quote from: word_on_a_wing on March 17, 2020, 12:10:00I'm curious to what extent others are socially distancing?

We are avoiding crowds at the moment. In everyday terms things aren't vastly different because we live on a farm and are therefore already comparatively quarantined, and we generally avoid crowds anyway, except at concerts (but we didn't have any of those lined up right now anyway) and for fortnightly grocery shopping (which we always do off-peak).

I run the farm and do my writing from home, so I don't get to town more than once a week at most on average anyway. The rest of the time I'm either on the farm, or going on a hike somewhere with my husband, and that rarely involves meeting another human being up close.

My husband has just gone back to work on Monday after two weeks' annual leave. He works at a medical practice, and they had a big meeting Monday morning about COVID-19. As of now, no staff with any sniffles or sore throat are allowed to turn up to work - doctors included. To do so is considered irresponsible unless people are prepared to work in biohazard suits - they don't want to spread COVID-19. Also, public servants in this state have just been given an extra 14 days COVID-19 leave to use for the same reasons - they don't want anyone coming to work with the sniffles. My husband works at a private practice so that won't be covered by this extra leave, but staff have general sick leave to use, and annual leave as well.

For years, in that practice, anyone coming in with respiratory symptoms was asked to wear a mask and disinfect their hands, to reduce spread. This has reduced illness amongst staff, but not eliminated it. They also wipe down surfaces, doorknobs, taps etc with disinfectant several times a day as standard practice and are now stepping that up a bit more. Brett disinfects his hands before handling his personal items, like his lunch bag and briefcase, and then again before leaving for the day. Doors are opened with elbows.

Both of us have a mildly sore throat at present (but nothing else); I had that on and off for a couple of days.  But work told Brett to stay home tomorrow because of it, just in case, and come back in on Friday (he has Thursdays off anyway) if it's gone.  It's highly unlikely to be COVID-19, both because we've had no documented cases in our region yet, and because it's the kind of thing that is mild and comes and goes (and it's not affected my inclination to exercise).  But, nobody is taking chances, and also spreading any germs around at present is stacking the field in favour of COVID-19, so it's a sensible policy.

Since we both have the same symptoms, we are going to sleep in the same bed as usual, but if it had been only one of us, then the unaffected person would have shipped out to the guest wing (our bedroom/ensuite is more self-contained, and therefore makes the best sick quarters).  We hate to do that, but don't want to be sick at the same time if we can avoid it.  (Oh, and we're now on the therapeutic dose of coldsore formula - Vit C, zinc, lysine - not on the everyday dose; and drinking loads of green and herbal teas - even more than usual - and extra mindful of eating properly and getting additional rest.)

But have a look at what an online friend is doing over in Spain re social distancing - she's got chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and is therefore really prone to respiratory viruses and pneumonia, and the infection has exploded in her country:  https://www.horseforum.com/general-off-topic-discussion/covid-19-different-containment-approaches-around-812919/page6/#post1970844847

You asked about Airbnb.  In theory I'm still running it, but I'm not quite sure if I'm going to accept any more bookings for a while.  We just had a COVID-19 related cancellation - people had booked us to go to someone's 60th in the area, but the 60th celebration has now been postponed. Airbnb's current policy around the pandemic is that for the near future, anyone - hosts or guests - can cancel without penalty, and I agree with that policy.  Anyway, it saved me having to contact the guest to ask if she had any respiratory symptoms (and to say that I had a sore throat) etc (because I won't let anyone with illness past the threshold at the moment, except ourselves...)

Disease symptom status will be one thing that will have to be communicated about earnestly from both host and guest sides... in theory I'm not averse to taking symptom-free guests when there is no illness in the house either.  I do know that people can be asymptomatic and still shed virus in the early stages, but at the moment the risk is quite low.  If and when the infection skyrockets and we start getting community transmission, I won't be taking any bookings until that status changes...

Nice talking to you, @word_on_a_wing - and such a hygienic way to talk!   :angel
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 18, 2020, 10:24:07
Infection rates were still increasing the last few days, I hope the current measures will help soon.

A friend told me the University where he works will be closing down from Friday. Most shops are closed now (except pharmacies, drug stores, supermarkets and such) too.

No new work has been coming, no surprise here. Did some garden work yesterday in the sunshine. Having a rest today... (because, after it was done, I took a mis-step somehow and sprained my foot a bit).
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 18, 2020, 12:38:21
Quote from: Ulrich on March 18, 2020, 10:24:07No new work has been coming, no surprise here. Did some garden work yesterday in the sunshine. Having a rest today... (because, after it was done, I took a mis-step somehow and sprained my foot a bit).

Typical Murphy.  It's always something banal like this.  The one time I broke bones in my body was NOT going flying off a galloping horse, it was falling from a small height after unbalancing, and landing awkwardly.  That broke three bones in my foot!  I was worried I might be getting decrepit - what, osteoporosis already??? - but no, apparently that injury is seen in all ages, most commonly from slipping in the bathtub, the ER people were telling me!

Get better soon! :)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 19, 2020, 10:20:24
China reports "no new cases" within their country (apparently the 35 new cases they have, were all people coming home from elsewhere), which is a shimmer of hope.

Our chancellor Merkel spoke on the telly last night. It was alright, she said each and everyone must now help to avoid a quick spreading etc.
(What I missed a bit, was a perspective, like "if things go well, we might take back extreme measures within a few weeks" or something like that.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 21, 2020, 01:00:09
Community transmission was confirmed yesterday to be happening now in Western Australia, so the bug is out of the bottle over here too.  We've also had the first confirmed case outside of the capital city, Perth; in the rural Southwest.  I expect it's already come to the South Coast too; there's a lag between that happening and people confirming it (few people get tested).
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: BiscuityBoyle on March 21, 2020, 02:55:53
Perth aka "the most isolated city in the world"...

By now there are even several cases in places like Mongolia and Kazakhstan, which are as remote and nomadic and you can get in 2020. Not community transmissions obviously but still...

Looks like it will get far worse before it gets better. Most of the world's largest countries (US, Russia, Brazil) are handling it poorly by the look of it (not that there is an ideal way to handle it, some golden mean between intrusive, authoritarian enforcement of regulations and a "laisser-faire" attitude).
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 21, 2020, 03:28:37
Two interesting case studies for places currently dealing well with it:

India, at the moment:  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-17/india-is-containing-coronavirus-despite-dense-population/12059024

A little town at the epicentre of the outbreak in Italy - no new cases in over a week:  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-21/one-italian-town-is-bucking-the-countrys-coronavirus-curve/12075048

...that approach works, but would almost certainly be too expensive to do globally.

Here's a link to a useful clip on the current Australian situation, and discussing general strategies (both government policies, and personal actions) - by Dr Norman Swan, one of our most trusted public health communicators:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-18/dr-norman-swan-answers-some-of-your-questions/12068904
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: BiscuityBoyle on March 21, 2020, 23:05:56
I would love to be wrong but I suspect the piece on India is a bit too optimistic. It seems to be more about how the reporter feels than, say, the fact they don't do anywhere nearly enough testing (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-51922204).


https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-21/experts-fear-india-will-be-the-next-coronavirus-hotspot
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-india-51962813/india-must-prepare-for-a-tsunami-of-coronavirus-cases

I'm no expert to put it mildly, but given everything we know about India, it would come as a surprise if they weather this better than others.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: BiscuityBoyle on March 22, 2020, 03:56:25
Hmmm so not exactly like the flu...

https://www.propublica.org/article/a-medical-worker-describes--terrifying-lung-failure-from-covid19-even-in-his-young-patients

QuoteIn my experience, this severity of ARDS is usually more typical of someone who has a near drowning experience — they have a bunch of dirty water in their lungs — or people who inhale caustic gas. Especially for it to have such an acute onset like that. I've never seen a microorganism or an infectious process cause such acute damage to the lungs so rapidly.


Quote"It first struck me how different it was when I saw my first coronavirus patient go bad. I was like, Holy shit, this is not the flu. Watching this relatively young guy, gasping for air, pink frothy secretions coming out of his tube and out of his mouth. The ventilator should have been doing the work of breathing but he was still gasping for air, moving his mouth, moving his body, struggling. We had to restrain him. With all the coronavirus patients, we've had to restrain them. They really hyperventilate, really struggle to breathe. When you're in that mindstate of struggling to breathe and delirious with fever, you don't know when someone is trying to help you, so you'll try to rip the breathing tube out because you feel it is choking you, but you are drowning.

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 22, 2020, 11:20:02
Quote from: BiscuityBoyle on March 22, 2020, 03:56:25Hmmm so not exactly like the flu...

As far as I remember no-one ever said it was like the flu! First I heard they were talking about a "lung disease", later CoVid-19 - because it is not (like) the flu!
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: BiscuityBoyle on March 22, 2020, 14:46:15
Maybe not on this forum but it's a widespread talking point (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/coronavirus-vs-the-flu-its-just-like-other-viruses-and-we-should-go-about-our-normal-business-right-wrong-heres-why-2020-03-09).

Anyhow I meant to link to this piece
https://www.propublica.org/article/a-medical-worker-describes--terrifying-lung-failure-from-covid19-even-in-his-young-patients
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on March 22, 2020, 19:26:26
Quote from: BiscuityBoyle on March 22, 2020, 14:46:15Anyhow I meant to link to this piece
https://www.propublica.org/article/a-medical-worker-describes--terrifying-lung-failure-from-covid19-even-in-his-young-patients (https://www.propublica.org/article/a-medical-worker-describes--terrifying-lung-failure-from-covid19-even-in-his-young-patients)

luckily this seems to be the exception and not the rule:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/20/health/covid-19-recovery-rates-intl/index.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: BiscuityBoyle on March 24, 2020, 03:29:52
Thing is, there are lots and lots of people in their 40s who have high blood pressure or Type 2 diabetes or other health conditions that make them as vulnerable as old people...

This thing is brutal (https://news.sky.com/video/share-11961357?fbclid=IwAR0DsghPMsigoOohnYCnkpPteWTej8DbxM94-lGZCcd8o0-YiWpJZ8JtXc8).

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 24, 2020, 16:35:43
Quote from: BiscuityBoyle on March 24, 2020, 03:29:52Thing is, there are lots and lots of people in their 40s who have high blood pressure or Type 2 diabetes or other health conditions that make them as vulnerable as old people...

This thing is brutal.

Have you got friends and relatives at risk, @BiscuityBoyle, and do you have risk factors yourself?

...I suppose the first part of that will be a yes for the majority of people... and I suppose you're also feeling awful for people in general who are going to have bad outcomes, which I can relate to.

As always when faced with a horrible situation, we can only do the best we can personally, and what will be will be.  While it's obviously a good idea to know your enemy, there's also a lot of wisdom in mocking the devil.  Quite literally, because apart from being well informed about things you can do to reduce spread, being able to live well in spite of a bad situation and under constraints is the next best thing (or maybe even an equally useful thing) we can do both for ourselves and others.  As someone else put it to me, life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.

There's a separate thread here for sharing things that might be helping us both practically and in terms of staying in reasonable spirits:  http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=9316.0

This isn't meant in any way to minimise the seriousness of the situation; quite the opposite.  I have a friend with terminal cancer and have learnt a huge amount from her attitude.  She's not sitting there reading up on the many painful ways cancer can kill you; she's too busy appreciating and enjoying every day that's left to her, and the people she loves and love her, and the many beautiful things in this world, which little children and dying people seem to see most clearly.

In some ways we're all on death row from the time we are born, and all we can do is make the best of however many days we're going to get.

Best wishes to you, @BiscuityBoyle, and everyone here. 

And when you feel like it, keep that music coming!  :cool
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: BiscuityBoyle on March 24, 2020, 23:40:58
Thanks for the kind words, Sue. I don't think I'm particularly at risk - I'm in my mid 30s, I work out and am not aware of having any maladies - but, as you said, all of us probably know people whose age alone makes them vulnerable. Many of my favorite people in the world are in their 70s, including my mom.

Yes, one definitely could use adopting a more positive attitude since there's nothing one can do about it except staying at home.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 25, 2020, 05:20:52
You're most welcome, @BiscuityBoyle.  :cool  (Phew!  I thought, "How am I going to say this without sounding excessively like a hippie or Great-Aunt Matilda?" - and I'm not sure if I was able to avoid that very much, but I dived right in anyway and hoped for the best.  :-D )

And now, a super-hygienic cyberhug for anyone who could use one.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F736x%2Fba%2F29%2F88%2Fba2988977516eb727382bc7700e913ce--bear-hugs-teddy-bear-hug.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)


Here's an article I thought was worth sharing, covering basic immunity, and some ways to steward that:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020-03-25/can-you-boost-your-immune-system-to-help-fight-coronavirus/12085036

I so hope we won't all forget these things when the pandemic is over; even "ordinary" infections aren't a barrel of laughs, nor is spreading "ordinary" stuff to others...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 25, 2020, 10:44:52
Instead of looking too much at India, New York or wherever, maybe we should look more at South Korea:

QuoteNo matter how you look at the numbers, one country stands out from the rest: South Korea.

In late February and early March, the number of new coronavirus infections in the country exploded from a few dozen, to a few hundred, to several thousand.

At the peak, medical workers identified 909 new cases in a single day, Feb. 29, and the country of 50 million people appeared on the verge of being overwhelmed. But less than a week later, the number of new cases halved. Within four days, it halved again — and again the next day.

South Korea is one of only two countries with large outbreaks, alongside China, to flatten the curve of new infections. And it has done so without China's draconian restrictions on speech and movement, or economically damaging lockdowns like those in Europe and the United States.

South Korea has tested far more people for the coronavirus than any other country, enabling it to isolate and treat many people soon after they are infected.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/world/asia/coronavirus-south-korea-flatten-curve.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: BiscuityBoyle on March 26, 2020, 05:47:46
QuoteInstead of looking too much at India, New York or wherever, maybe we should look more at South Korea


I'm assuming this is solid advice if you're a public health official or anyone with any say on coronavirus response. As for those of us who aren't public officials - I'm not sure what "looking too much at India, New York or wherever" even means. I don't want to read your words uncharitably as saying "we shouldn't pay too much attention to the suffering of our fellow human beings" but you see where I'm coming from...

Probably the most compelling piece of analysis I've read so far on the issue (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/mar/18/tip-of-the-iceberg-is-our-destruction-of-nature-responsible-for-covid-19-aoe) drives home precisely how interconnected everything in our world is.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on March 26, 2020, 08:20:50
Quote from: BiscuityBoyle on March 26, 2020, 05:47:46I'm assuming this is solid advice if you're a public health official or anyone with any say on coronavirus response.

I recently heard someone saying that if we don't have data we just have an opinion. The data shows South Korea declining cases without closing their country. I personally don't say it's a bad thing to lock down a country/area (it worked for China), but maybe a mix between that and what South Korea did is the solution. What I see from their experience is that aggressive testing is what is paying off, the opposite of what is done in the US.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 26, 2020, 09:36:20
Quote from: BiscuityBoyle on March 26, 2020, 05:47:46Probably the most compelling piece of analysis I've read so far on the issue (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/mar/18/tip-of-the-iceberg-is-our-destruction-of-nature-responsible-for-covid-19-aoe) drives home precisely how interconnected everything in our world is.

Thanks for that link, @BiscuityBoyle.  Yes, it describes that interconnectedness, which for some reason the majority of Westerners don't seem to have even a basic clue about these days - partly, in Australia, it's the urbanisation of populations and their removal from interaction with nature, food production etc, so most people have only vague ideas about where their food comes from, how it is produced, and what the effects of various types of food production are on the environment - let alone understanding that disrupting ecosystems has always favoured opportunists (humans, above all), and therefore also opportunistic pathogens, and that the more you push that, the more it pushes back.

Have you ever heard of the Gaia hypothesis?  Very relevant.

I don't know whether you'd like my personal opinion, so I'll just say that as someone who qualified as a biologist and environmental scientist, and worked in sustainable land management / biodiversity research before turning to education, my views on what we're doing to the planet, and what the likely outcomes of that are going to be for the planet and for our own species, align very closely with what I've heard David Attenborough say about it, and Paul Ehrlich.

My two main critiques of the article you linked to are:

1) Referring to "animals" as if humans aren't animals themselves, and of course humans are animals.  People should correctly refer not to "humans and animals" but "humans and other animals." Making that artificial distinction between "humans and animals" is very much linked to the anthropocentric Western cultural idea that humans are somehow above and separate from "mere nature" and basically supernatural beings in training, put there by God allegedly in his image, to exploit everything else, which was allegedly put there entirely for our own use (which is a really convenient and self-serving world view).  If people continue to talk about humans and nature using anthropocentric language, these misconceptions will continue to be perpetuated.

2) Not even mentioning the two main reasons for the accelerating destruction of the biosphere:  The continued human population explosion, and the accelerating consumption of resources per capita in our wasteful (and doomed) consumerist societies.  ...the people in the article seem to think that the "solution" is just to tinker around the edges, and re-arrange the deckchairs on the Titanic.  This is not going to work.

The reason that most media articles (sadly, even Guardian articles) don't mention these basic facts, aside from widespread ignorance on these matters, is that we currently live under an economic system which thrives (in the short term) when there is skyrocketing demand for consumer items, as happens when you continue to add to the human population above replacement rate, and when you continue to fan demand for items nobody actually needs (need versus want), and create a whole bunch of throwaway goods with built-in obsolescence so you can sell more and more short-lived items that end up in landfill a relatively short time later.  This is current Western capitalism, as favoured by the neoliberals who've got their claws in power structures, legislation, media, etc etc, and whose upper echelons get dirty rich out of exploiting the planet, and the most powerless of their fellow human beings, through this system.

I'm not sure if you ever saw the film Idiocracy, but their hypothetical society's economic system was actually no more ridiculous than the one it set up to spoof - it's just that when ridiculous has been your lifelong normal, it's hard to see it that way.

So yeah, unfortunately, humans behave like bacteria cultured in the laboratory:  They grow exponentially until all their resource base has been exploited - and then they crash; even though humans actually have brains, and have all the necessary knowledge as a species to live in harmony with nature.  If humans don't control their own population size through contraception, then diseases, famine, war and ecosystem collapse will have to control it for them.  The greater the population size and the more mobile the human population amongst each other, the more rife the situation becomes for having pandemics to knock the population back down to less ridiculous levels - because we've long since exceeded the planet's sustainable carrying capacity, and are all living on borrowed time (while continuing to exterminate other species and the few remaining wildernesses - we've not stopped doing this since industrialisation).

Ditto, for controlling our greed and wastefulness as a modern species.  Homo sapiens, that's a laugh, and typical hubris...

/end rant

As a result of reading this link, I bumped into a salient critique of the government response to COVID-19 in Australia here: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/mar/26/australia-is-scared-and-confused-about-coronavirus-is-scott-morrison-the-leader-we-need-for-this-grave-moment

...and one of the best books I've seen on the topic on humans, growth economics and the environment was written by a psychologist - if you're only going to read one book on these issues, read this one:  https://www.amazon.com/dp/0522849695?tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 26, 2020, 09:57:20
Quote from: BiscuityBoyle on March 26, 2020, 05:47:46I don't want to read your words uncharitably as saying "we shouldn't pay too much attention to the suffering of our fellow human beings" but you see where I'm coming from...

Thank you for that.  :cool
Of course I said "too much", because we should not look just at the problem(s), but at possible solutions too. That is all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 26, 2020, 10:22:16
By the way, I don't mean to depress anyone, because that would actually make everything that's already bad much worse, and then there wouldn't even be a slim chance of turning things around.  I'm not a fan of doom and gloom, even in the face of horrific facts, because it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, sapping those of us who care of the energy and will to do things differently.  I guess I learnt to look for beauty in people and the world, and to survive and get through, while growing up in a really horrible dysfunctional family, and those skills transfer well to the realisation that the wider social structures are equally horrible and dysfunctional.

So, lots of love to all of you. ♥

And a story my teacher told me when I was in Grade 2:  Two frogs who fell in a bucket of milk, and they were both swimming all night, and eventually one of them gave up and drowned, while the other said, "Well, it probably is hopeless, but it doesn't hurt me to keep swimming as long as I am physically able."  And the frog's swimming churned the milk, and as the fable goes, caused butter lumps to form, from which he was able to jump out of the bucket.

The science on that is a bit dodgy - both the butter making (you do that with cream) and that you could make enough to push off and that you could push off enough to get out of the bucket - but it's a great story which still warms my heart, more than half a statistical human life span later. :)

And for those who like black humour:


:lol:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 26, 2020, 10:56:26
Quote from: dsanchez on March 26, 2020, 08:20:50I recently heard someone saying that if we don't have data we just have an opinion. The data shows South Korea declining cases without closing their country. I personally don't say it's a bad thing to lock down a country/area (it worked for China), but maybe a mix between that and what South Korea did is the solution. What I see from their experience is that aggressive testing is what is paying off, the opposite of what is done in the US.

You might be interested in this comparison analysis: What we can learn from the countries winning the coronavirus fight (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-26/coronavirus-covid19-global-spread-data-explained/12089028)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 26, 2020, 10:56:50
An article about Germany:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/germany-coronavirus-death-rate/2020/03/24/76ce18e4-6d05-11ea-a156-0048b62cdb51_story.html
Quote from: undefinedWhen an individual tested positive, they used contact tracing to find other people with whom they had been in touch and then tested and quarantined them, which broke infection chains.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: piggymirror on March 28, 2020, 04:15:09
OUCH! Till Lindemann of Rammstein positive and in hospital.

Source: German press

Edit: I stand corrected. He's tested negative. Source: more press (https://loudwire.com/rammstein-till-lindemann-coronavirus-pneumonia/). I guess I shouldn't trust Bild.

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 28, 2020, 08:17:28
Quote from: piggymirror on March 28, 2020, 04:15:09I guess I shouldn't trust Bild.

So mildly put!  :lol:

In related matters, I'm sorry, but I have an evil streak and am currently laughing as the very officials / suits who were dragging their heels about safety measures and talking it down are now testing positive.  Oops!   :evil:  :angel

...more evilly still:  There's currently an excess of power concentrated in the hands of wealthy middle-aged white guys.  I wonder if COVID-19 will significantly correct that imbalance (but at an approx. 1% overall mortality rate I doubt it, plus there's always more of them crawling out of the woodwork etc).  And have you noticed how the most neoliberal of the mainstream neoliberal parties skew even more towards white, rich, male and middle (+) aged?  Hardly any women in the current Australian government... and not very multicultural in representation either...

/end rant.  And I do like men, am even married to one, I just don't like nincompoops and narcissists, who seem to turn up disproportionately in governments and general power positions.  (Books have been written about this.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on March 30, 2020, 00:03:29
Quote from: undefinedThere are several arguments supporting the current official Swedish strategy. These include the need to keep schools open in order to allow parents who work in key jobs in health care, transportation and food supply lines to remain at work. Despite other infectious diseases spreading rapidly among children, COVID-19 complications are relatively rare in children. A long-term lockdown is also likely to have major economic implications that in the future may harm healthcare due to lack of resources. This may eventually cause even more deaths and suffering than the COVID-19 pandemic will bring in the near term.

Life is carrying on as normal in Sweden - scientists explain the controversial approach (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/sweden-under-fire-for-relaxed-coronavirus-approach-here-s-the-science-behind-it)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on April 02, 2020, 14:34:58
The Cure fans on #COVID-19:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: piggymirror on April 02, 2020, 19:43:39
Quote from: dsanchez on March 30, 2020, 00:03:29
Quote from: undefinedThere are several arguments supporting the current official Swedish strategy. These include the need to keep schools open in order to allow parents who work in key jobs in health care, transportation and food supply lines to remain at work. Despite other infectious diseases spreading rapidly among children, COVID-19 complications are relatively rare in children. A long-term lockdown is also likely to have major economic implications that in the future may harm healthcare due to lack of resources. This may eventually cause even more deaths and suffering than the COVID-19 pandemic will bring in the near term.

Life is carrying on as normal in Sweden - scientists explain the controversial approach (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/sweden-under-fire-for-relaxed-coronavirus-approach-here-s-the-science-behind-it)

I don't know. I suspect this will backfire on Sweden terribly.
Let's hope I'm wrong, but...

You see the numbers in Spain, Italy, Switzerland, it's growing like crazy in France, the UK, the Netherlands, the US...

The only countries who seem to have done things the right way are South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, and to a lesser degree, Japan.
The Singapore government, in an unusual move, even accused the Swiss and British governments of being irresponsible for not locking themselves down faster.
And I suspect the Singapore government was right...

Then there's also the masks.
Here in Europe, in our stupid little Eurocentrism, we sometimes tend to mock the Japanese for wearing masks when they have a cold.
But the fact is that that is precisely the most civilised thing to do.
And besides, it's not like the Asians are not civilised, in fact, in many ways they wipe the floor with the West...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on April 03, 2020, 10:21:29
Quote from: piggymirror on April 02, 2020, 19:43:39But the fact is that that is precisely the most civilised thing to do.

Depends on the mask and what you'd like it to achieve. So far, it was said that it helps to not spread something if you are ill yourself, but does not really "protect" you. (That is different of course with the medical masks used in hospitals etc. These are much wanted now, so of course creating a demand for those from the "public" would be insane.)

Quote from: piggymirror on April 02, 2020, 19:43:39And besides, it's not like the Asians are not civilised, in fact, in many ways they wipe the floor with the West...

Such "generalisations" are basically a difficult thing, always depends what you look at.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: piggymirror on April 04, 2020, 03:04:51
Bad, bad numbers today (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries) in the USA and France (both over 1,000 deaths), and the UK (bordering 700 deaths too).  :1f630: 
Horrific numbers in Ecuador (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/theyre-leaving-us-to-die-ecuadorians-plead-for-help-as-virus-blazes-deadly-trail) as well, the coastal city of Guayaquil is totally overwhelmed.  :1f631: Bodies on the streets, they're so plagued they can't count them...
On the "good" side, Italy seems to be stagnating, and Spain seems to be showing signs that it could be stagnating, too.  :1f636:

(https://i.imgur.com/lfYVMo7.png)

Besides, many people in the USA still in the "it's just a flu" denial phase.  :persevere:  :disappointed:
And guess where in the US "it's just a flu" the most? You guessed right, the Southern states.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/02/us/coronavirus-social-distancing.html?action=click&module=Top+Stories&pgtype=Homepage&fbclid=IwAR1O7mrQ2NTWdDaTlVnVkFpYmiumdnqFgNcE_JaSoOLj2YOB5pxGB4ON0J4 (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/02/us/coronavirus-social-distancing.html?action=click&module=Top+Stories&pgtype=Homepage&fbclid=IwAR1O7mrQ2NTWdDaTlVnVkFpYmiumdnqFgNcE_JaSoOLj2YOB5pxGB4ON0J4)

And New York and New Jersey totally out of control, it's becoming worse there now than Madrid or Milan have been.  :1f631: Truth be told, it's also more populated.
Besides, Louisiana (they just had Mardi Gras...), and Michigan showing worrying numbers.
Let's hope Mr Craig Chainofflowers is okay...  :1f636:

(https://i.imgur.com/hLX8YH4.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on April 04, 2020, 03:36:58
Thanks for the stats and links, @piggymirror.  That's why I clicked "like" - not because I like the statistics...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: piggymirror on April 04, 2020, 03:59:12
Quote from: SueC on April 04, 2020, 03:36:58Thanks for the stats and links, @piggymirror.  That's why I clicked "like" - not because I like the statistics...

No one does... 
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on April 04, 2020, 04:51:01
Yeah, maybe not here, but some people truly don't seem to care, and I've seen a few like that around cyberspace.

The "like" button is a complicated beast, so sometimes it's best to specify what one likes.  So for instance, on my "other" forum, if someone reports a serious accident they had, that post doesn't attract as many "likes" and the people who do click it add, "I just like the fact that you're still alive" etc... :)

I don't always know what to do with the "like" button on the music thread - obviously click like if you like the music, but what if you don't like the music enough to listen to it again, but liked the learning experience / history lesson?  ...when in doubt I try to click "like" if I've really appreciated something, but then what does that say about the things I leave plain?   :1f636:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on April 04, 2020, 05:24:54
Quote from: Ulrich on April 03, 2020, 10:21:29
Quote from: piggymirror on April 02, 2020, 19:43:39But the fact is that that is precisely the most civilised thing to do.

Depends on the mask and what you'd like it to achieve. So far, it was said that it helps to not spread something if you are ill yourself, but does not really "protect" you. (That is different of course with the medical masks used in hospitals etc. These are much wanted now, so of course creating a demand for those from the "public" would be insane.)

@piggymirror did specify people with a cold... :)

I'm gonna weigh in on this one to say that you actually can put some masks through the wash and re-use them (hang 'em in the sun!), and also, that wearing a plain old doubled-up handkerchief is better than nothing, and that everyone with any kind of respiratory virus, whether or not it's COVID-19, ought to be either at home while they're making clouds of droplets and aerosol, or wear a mask in public if it's not completely avoidable for them to be there, as is the cultural norm in many Asian countries now, but unfortunately not yet in the West...

And yes, masks ought to be prioritised for people in close contact with ill people, and the ill people themselves - but if everyone were properly organised, then they'd have a few masks anyway and could just chuck them in the wash if they feel like wearing them even if they're not ill themselves.  And having a surgical (square type, not airtight) mask on will tend to protect you from direct droplets entering your airways if someone sneezes directly on you or in your zone in public, although it's not great for protecting you from aerosolised virus (really minute droplets - you need airtight-around-edges masks for that).  However, I would say that cutting down on the number of viral particles entering your airway will give you a greater chance to fight it off.  Also, masks can be good for reminding people not to touch their noses and mouths (and eyes) out in public (and not until they've washed their hands thoroughly back at home).


Quote from: Ulrich on April 03, 2020, 10:21:29
Quote from: piggymirror on April 02, 2020, 19:43:39And besides, it's not like the Asians are not civilised, in fact, in many ways they wipe the floor with the West...

Such "generalisations" are basically a difficult thing, always depends what you look at.

Yeah, generalisations are difficult... but:

In general:

I've always preferred working with Asian Australians, especially as a university student (Anglo-Aussies were generally more interested in drinking beer than doing hard work, and my German work ethic gels better with an Asian work ethic than with "she'll-be-rightness"...)

...but also professionally, because every one of them I have worked with are very motivated to work hard, get results and generally pull their weight - none of them ever tried to catch a free ride... (I'm sure slackers also exist in their culture, but far more in the minority)

...Asian Australian students are generally more motivated than their white Australian counterparts - and when I taught at a selective school in Sydney where people have to compete for places with entry exams, more than 80% of the kids were Asian Australian...

...and in our farmstay, I've never ever, so far, had an issue with any of the Chinese / Japanese / SE Asian guests, who were all friendly, polite, clean and super respectful of other people and facilities, to a T... all three of my problematic guests so far were white Australians... leaving muddy footprints in a shared guest bathtub, chucking their stuff all over the shared spaces instead of keeping it in their rooms, leaving French doors swinging on the breeze, expecting me to do their washing for them (that one was clearly used to women picking up after him, and got a bit of a manners-and-attitude lesson from me about it), not being courteous to other guests, and one of them even leaving the lid up and a puddle of his pee on the toilet seat and when I pulled him up about it, claiming that it wasn't him (he was the only person in the guest wing at the time, but I had other people coming in to the other room that night, so checked everything over) and that he'd never even used our toilet because he was afraid of compost toilets... to which I said, "Oh, you've been here two days, where DID you go then, in the garden?"...besides, I heard him use the toilet...

So in general, yes, I do think that Chinese, Japanese and SE Asian cultures are streets ahead of Australian culture when it comes to work ethic, consideration for others, manners, motivation to do the right thing etc, and I think they do indeed wipe the floor with most (but not all) Australians in these matters...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: piggymirror on April 04, 2020, 13:24:17
This is one fine video.

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on April 06, 2020, 06:53:41
Excellent clip for DIY people in places running out of masks.  Also very good general information.


And from Korea:


If you go to YT directly, there's more details in the text below the clip.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: piggymirror on April 06, 2020, 08:29:55
US, UK numbers getting more and more horrific.
UK PM Boris Johnson in hospital... on Sunday evening.

On the other hand, Italy and Spain numbers seem to slowwwwwly start going down.
Touch wood, because with a bit of luck, this will maybe mean the beginning of a recovery.

Meanwhile, France is finding horror numbers from care homes, which hadn't counted yet.
This means it will probably end up getting quite close to Italy/Spain.

(https://i.imgur.com/XkP1urW.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on April 07, 2020, 05:45:33
Just passing on a very good article:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/01/825221305/opinion-the-way-the-u-s-beat-tb-could-be-a-boon-in-battling-coronavirus
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on April 07, 2020, 05:55:48
(https://media.guim.co.uk/ec99a20a0d53bf0470046658b97984b1ebc3b752/0_0_3508_6842/3508..jpg)

from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/06/if-coronavirus-which-we-all-hate-now-is-spread-through-the-air-why-arent-we-all-wearing-masks

More on DIY masks here: http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=9304.msg772474#msg772474
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on April 09, 2020, 06:00:17
Interesting clip on mathematical modelling of COVID-19 scenarios here: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-08/norman-swan-looks-at-the-governments-coronavirus/12134996

Also a good article on how to be as resilient as possible physically to avoid illness, and what to do when you get a respiratory infection:  https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/apr/08/from-vitamin-c-to-breathing-exercises-doctors-on-what-you-should-really-do-for-your-health-right-now
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on April 11, 2020, 08:25:29
Another excellent article by Lenore Taylor, editor of Guardian Australia, this time about the choices we're going to have to make about exit strategies in Australia (and this applies to other countries as well):  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/11/australia-coronavirus-diabolical-decisions-choose-with-care
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on April 18, 2020, 04:46:26
Why a vaccine may be a pipe dream and we shouldn't be banking on it - interview with the guy who invented the HPV vaccine (to prevent cervical cancer):

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020-04-17/coronavirus-vaccine-ian-frazer/12146616


How Taiwan did so well, running things along without a vaccine:

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Why-Taiwan-s-COVID-19-death-rate-is-shockingly-low-15130341.php

https://news.yahoo.com/president-taiwan-country-prevented-major-230351493.html


Oh, and no exposed farting - cover your bums:  ;)

https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/coronacast/no-bare-bottoms-norman-swan-weighs-in/12154256
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on April 18, 2020, 12:21:39
Quote from: SueC on April 18, 2020, 04:46:26Why a vaccine may be a pipe dream and we shouldn't be banking on it

Yeah, but a medication that helps severely ill people would be welcome and it does look good (sorry, German article only):

https://www.sharedeals.de/bellerophon-aerzte-begeistert-von-corona-therapie-warten-auf-die-mega-news/

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on April 18, 2020, 12:58:55
Yeah, improved treatment of respiratory distress is one thing that's got potential. :cool

Interestingly, I was reading that the main problem in that is actually the body's inflammatory response, rather than the virus itself - the overreaction of the body to the virus.  So that's a good avenue to look at, for ICU treatment.

From a nutritional perspective, extra Vitamins E, D, C, betacarotene and general antioxidants (like the anthocyanins in blueberries, and other strongly coloured pigments in good F&V), plus complete protein and essential fatty acids at every meal (from actual food, not from a tin of goop), should come in as useful for dealing with tissue damage in this case as they do for bone healing - which helped me heal up in record time when I had a triple fracture of hard-to-heal bones in my feet.  Of course, eating well is always important, but when your body is fighting an infection and/or repairing tissue, it has an extra demand for those things - and it's best not to become deficient or borderline deficient in them.

I have a really strong hunch that people who rest up, keep warm, eat chicken soup etc the moment they're feeling under the weather have a better chance of not getting complications than people who try to "soldier on"... it's certainly the medical recommendation to do so, not that certain prime ministers (and a plethora of other politicians) were following that advice, or even social distancing advice - setting a pretty bad example...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/27/opinion/boris-johnson-coronavirus.html

QuoteLast weekend, Mr. Paul became the first senator to test positive for the coronavirus. He is unlikely to be the last — in part because in the six days between when he was tested, on March 16, and when his results came back positive, Mr. Paul strutted around Capitol Hill, shedding pathogens left and right. He lunched with his colleagues. He held forth on the Senate floor. He breathed all over unsuspecting aides, worked out in the Senate gym and swam in the Senate pool. The United States' own super-spreader.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on April 19, 2020, 06:58:15
Super article on changing the world for the better after COVID-19 here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/18/history-fairer-society-coronavirus-workers-black-death-spanish-flu
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on April 19, 2020, 13:38:40
Quote170 Dutch academics put together a 5-point manifesto for economic change after the C19 crisis, building on #degrowth principles. It has gone viral in Dutch media. In this thread I'll summarize the points in English.

1) Shift from an economy focused on aggregate GDP growth to differentiate among sectors that can grow and need investment (critical public sectors, and clean energy, education, health) and sectors that need to radically degrow (oil, gas, mining, advertising, etc).
2) Build an economic framework focused on redistribution, which establishes a universal basic income, a universal social policy system, a strong progressive taxation of
income, profits and wealth, reduced working hours and job sharing, and recognizes care work.
3) Transform farming towards regenerative agriculture based on biodiversity conservation, sustainable and mostly local and vegetarian food production, as well as fair agricultural employment conditions and wages.
4) Reduce consumption and travel, with a drastic shift from luxury and wasteful consumption and travel to basic, necessary, sustainable and satisfying consumption and
travel.
5) Debt cancellation, especially for workers and small business owners and for countries in the global south (both from richer countries and international financial institutions).


Original proposal in dutch (https://drive.google.com/file/d/18lgH20CnBwhNQWZiHdHLJA78cSz7Lx_w/view).
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on April 20, 2020, 22:38:38
A side effect of #covid19

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on April 22, 2020, 11:17:19
QuoteThe World Health Organization (WHO) is calling for stricter safety and hygiene standards when wet markets reopen.

And it says governments must rigorously enforce bans on the sale and trade of wildlife for food.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52369878
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: piggymirror on April 22, 2020, 20:58:22
Death rate/million people in EU countries (+associates), US states (+ associates), and Canada
(according to Worldometers (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/), as of Apr 22, 2020).
Note: these data are not complete (don't take into account deceases in elderly care homes in certain countries, the UK and the USA, for instance -others too-)

San Marino - 1,179
New York - 1,004
Belgium - 540
New Jersey - 535
Andorra - 479
Spain - 464
Italy - 415
Connecticut - 397
France - 319
Louisiana - 301
Massachusetts - 287
Michigan - 271
UK - 267
Netherlands - 237
Sweden - 192
Switzerland - 174
District of Columbia (Washington DC) - 164
Rhode Island - 162
Republic of Ireland - 148
Pennsylvania - 126
Luxembourg - 125
Illinois - 114
Maryland - 109

-------------------------------

Indiana - 95
Washington State (Seattle) - 93
Colorado - 88
Delaware - 86
Georgia (USA) - 79
Portugal - 77
Monaco - 76
Denmark - 66
Vermont - 64
Germany - 61
Mississippi - 61
Austria - 57
Nevada - 56
Canada - 50
Ohio - 48
Florida - 42
Wisconsin - 42
Oklahoma - 42
Virginia - 39
Kentucky - 39
Alabama - 38
Slovenia - 38
Kansas - 37
Missouri - 36
Norway - 34
California - 33
Estonia - 33
New Mexico - 31
New Hampshire - 31
Arizona - 30
Idaho - 30
Minnesota - 29
Iceland - 29
Finland - 27
South Carolina - 27
North Macedonia - 27
Maine - 27
Romania - 26
Iowa - 26
Liechtenstein - 26
North Carolina - 24
Tennessee - 24
Hungary - 23
Texas - 19
Czech Rep - 19
Oregon - 19
Puerto Rico - 19
Nebraska - 17
North Dakota - 17
Serbia - 15
Arkansas - 14
Lithuania - 14
West Virginia - 14
Greece - 12
Croatia - 12
Montana - 12
Alaska - 12
Poland - 11
Utah - 11
Cyprus - 11
Wyoming - 10
Albania - 9
South Dakota - 9
Hawaii - 8
Montenegro - 8
Bulgaria - 7
Malta - 7
Latvia - 6
Slovakia - 3
Ukraine - 4
Georgia (Europe) - 1
Guam - 0
US Virgin Islands - 0
US Samoa - 0
Northern Mariana Islands - 0
Vatican City - 0
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on April 23, 2020, 22:52:40

Saw this morning 😆
Twitter -The Cure? (https://twitter.com/rob_sheridan/status/1253399674309894144?s=21)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on April 24, 2020, 01:03:28
A friend from the States was showing us this: :lol:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/a/img924/7197/4Uf8jg.jpg)

...and it does remind us that while we don't always get to choose our circumstances, we do get to choose our attitudes...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on May 02, 2020, 02:49:26
Made by the Chinese government in response to all the American government bleating - and I can't even find anything they've exaggerated here!

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: piggymirror on May 02, 2020, 07:51:50
Food-for-thought interview. Puts things into perspective.

The Guardian (Apr 30, 2020) (https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2020/apr/30/walter-scheidel-a-shock-to-the-established-order-can-deliver-change)

QuoteBlack Death historian: 'A coronavirus depression could be the great leveller'

Walter Scheidel explains how the fallout from coronavirus could be the catalyst for a more equal world


[...] The Austrian economic historian Walter Scheidel argues that throughout history, from the stone age onwards, pandemic is one of the only four events capable of bringing about greater equality. War, state collapse and revolution are the other three.

In his book The Great Leveler he showed how the Black Death in the 1300s led to the wipeout of a third of Europe's population and massively reduced inequality by raising the price of labour. More recently, in the 20th century, two catastrophic world wars and the Communist revolution led to a long era of reduced inequality lasting until the early 1980s and giving rise to the modern welfare state, labour unions and progressive taxation. [...]
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on May 02, 2020, 16:11:30
Quote from: undefined...pandemic is one of the only four events capable of bringing about greater equality. War, state collapse and revolution are the other three.

Yeah I tend to agree, especially for those who died. All of 'em equally dead.  :1f62a: :1f635:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on May 03, 2020, 01:33:53
Quote from: Ulrich on May 02, 2020, 16:11:30
Quote from: undefined...pandemic is one of the only four events capable of bringing about greater equality. War, state collapse and revolution are the other three.

Yeah I tend to agree, especially for those who died. All of 'em equally dead.  :1f62a: :1f635:

Brett says that this is probably the most pragmatic statement he ever heard!  (And PS, he says always read the book first, before you watch a screen adaptation, so that your reading experience isn't contaminated with the somebody else's visualisations!)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: piggymirror on May 03, 2020, 06:50:02
The Guardian (Apr 16, 2020) (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/16/crawley-worst-uk-coronavirus-job-losses-aviation)

QuoteCrawley likely to be worst affected by UK coronavirus job losses

More than 53,000 of 94,000 jobs in aviation-reliant Sussex town at risk, warns thinktank

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: BiscuityBoyle on May 04, 2020, 17:50:03
This seems to me somewhat more tethered to reality than the "hopeful" Black Plague comparisons from a public intellectual with a book to promote.

Quote from: undefined"EXCEPTIONALLY DIRE": SECONDARY IMPACTS OF COVID-19 COULD INCREASE GLOBAL POVERTY AND HUNGER (https://theintercept.com/2020/05/02/exceptionally-dire-secondary-impacts-of-covid-19-could-increase-global-poverty-and-hunger/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: BiscuityBoyle on May 04, 2020, 18:23:41
That's more like it (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/may/04/cost-of-public-transport-should-be-raised-as-lockdown-ends-ifs)!

QuoteThe price of a bus, train or tube ticket during peak commuting hours could be raised to prevent crowding and the spread of coronavirus on public transport, according to a leading thinktank.

Title: Un-locking.
Post by: piggymirror on May 12, 2020, 19:01:56
Un-locking.

Red means "hard" lockdown continues.
Orange and green means different degrees of easing.
I'll try and post more maps as soon as I find them.

-In France:

(https://i.imgur.com/P41Fb56.jpg)



-In Spain:

(https://i.imgur.com/H1LAk3D.jpg)



Both countries use its own scale to de-escalate.

Pity that Brussels (I mean, the EU) has no competence on this, things would be easier to understand (I suppose?).
Particularly in cross-border urban areas such as the Basque Country, Geneva/Annemasse, Mulhouse/Basel/Freiburg, Lille/Tournai, Saarbrücken/Sarreguemines, Vienna/Bratislava, Strasbourg/Kehl, Görlitz/Zgorzelec, Gorizia/Nova Gorica, Nancy/Metz/Luxembourg/Trier, Tallinn/Helsinki, Frankfurt-Oder/Slubice, etc.

What do you do now, if you live in one country but work in another? Complicated.

The most ridiculous case must be that town that's splintered between Belgium and the Netherlands (I said "splintered", not just "split").
I think it is called Baarle-Nassau or something like that. It has a ridiculous border indeed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on May 13, 2020, 10:08:11
https://medium.com/swlh/our-industry-isnt-coming-back-like-yours-is-4cbf261194e1
QuoteUnlike any natural disaster, this is the first time in my life I've witnessed something that everyone, regardless of location, has had to cope with at once. No person, industry or area of daily life has been left untouched by what's going on right now.

COVID has impacted every aspect of our lives: we can't go out with friends, grab dinner, or just swing by our favorite coffee shop. And while our social norms have been uniquely affected, it's our working lives that have seen the greatest disruption.
(...)
But some of us aren't that fortunate. Myself and my team at MEPTIK live in the world of live events and entertainment. Everything we do is based around locations, gatherings, events, and shows — and those have vanished.
(...)
But, you see, our normal isn't everyone else's normal. It won't return when cities begin to reopen. We can't just restart this beast of a process overnight. Most events you've been to — music festivals, concert tours, conferences — take anywhere from months to years to plan and coordinate.
(...)
We enjoy being behind-the-scenes, but now is not the time to remain in the shadows. Let your political leaders know that we're here, and we've been affected — via Twitter, Facebook, Insta, email, all of the above. Talk to your friends and your colleagues; don't live in this alone. You might be at home by yourself, but you're never alone.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on May 14, 2020, 12:30:18
(https://media.guim.co.uk/b25c0e15aaf36dd666eed92761b6511b05ac0f1c/0_0_3508_6327/3508.jpg)

from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/13/conspiracy-theories-used-to-be-fun-now-everyone-is-freaking-out-about-everything-all-at-once
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on May 15, 2020, 04:48:42
Another interesting article on the likelihood of a vaccine:

https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2020/05/13/Vaccine-Not-Likely/

Seems that it's a similar story to antibiotics - by using these you automatically select for pathogens that are better at getting past them.

We can change the way we live, though; and if we're going to have a new normal, then let's have one that addresses and corrects the inherent injustices in the systems that were the pre-COVID-19 normal.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on May 16, 2020, 13:00:01
Yeah...

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on May 17, 2020, 10:54:36
Quote from: undefinedIt was always hard making a living as a musician in New York City. The quarantine has made it impossible.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/08/nyregion/amy-madden-new-york-musician-quarantine.html
Quote from: undefinedEven during the long period in which creativity was better supported, making enough money for the essential things was not easy, yet it was unclear then how much more challenging the exercise would become. This particular life was already scarred by the slow burn of the music industry's technological revolution and the brutal economic realities of New York. The pandemic rendered it to ash.

In recent years, Amy Madden had made a meager living playing in bars, most of them the dives that had defined a vanishing cultural style in the city. Now the virus had forced those bars to close. A part-time job she had at an art gallery became another casualty of the national lockdown.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on May 20, 2020, 13:50:59
QuoteI miss the shows and I miss the scene. I've actually found myself being acutely depressed when I think about the state my beloved scene has been reduced to, but not entirely for myself. I've been to hundreds of gigs now. I've seen hundreds of bands. I've seen so many I can't even remember them all. I'm sad for the future, for those who are just coming through.

But I am most concerned about the industry itself. The thousands of people who relied on the industry for their livelihood – not only the musicians, most of whom barely scraped by at the best of times, but the roadies, riggers, techies, venue and studio owners, gig bookers, publicists, promoters, backline suppliers, and all their staff. Who's looking out for them now? I'm missing my live music rush, but these people depend on it financially.

Let's not forget that it's not just live music that's suffering here – theatre, dance, comedy, even film and TV... every area of the performing and creative arts has been gutted by COVID-19 and at every level of government it has been denied any form of financial assistance. Pubs and clubs might be reopening, but who knows how long it will be before they are once again filled with the clamour of live entertainment, and what restrictions will be in place once they are? For those of us who love it live, all we can do is support the scene and those impacted however we can.
http://www.loudmag.com.au/features/ever-gonna-see-live-bands/
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on May 26, 2020, 01:46:58
QuoteULTRA RICH KEEP GETTING ULTRA RICHER: The news comes after progressive think tank 'Americans for Tax Fairness and the Institute for Policy Studies' found that the total net worth of all American billionaires rose US$434 billion (A$663 billion) since state lockdowns began on March 19. Because that's just how that country works!

From a Crikey email linking to this story:  https://americansfortaxfairness.org/issue/tale-two-crises-billionaires-gain-workers-feel-pandemic-pain/
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on May 27, 2020, 21:06:54

(https://media.giphy.com/media/xT9IgKK9NVmEZxYTeM/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on May 28, 2020, 01:00:07
OMG... :1f631:  :1f629:  :1f635:

Here comes that poem again:

HAPPY IS THE MORON

Happy is the moron
He doesn't give a damn
I wish I were a moron
Oh no! Perhaps I am!

Like bad driving, it would be fine if it  only affected them - but it unfortunately has a lot of collateral damage, on people who did not make those choices.  Otherwise I'd be Darwinistic and say, "Go for it!"  :evil:

It's funny how American freedom is often apparently just a euphemism for American entitlement, short-term thinking and refusal to use the brain to even 10% of its capacity...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on May 28, 2020, 23:38:34
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on May 29, 2020, 00:27:11
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EYvJqmKVAAAeEFz?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on May 29, 2020, 10:30:16
At least a bit of an optimistic message (sorry, German article)

https://www.gmx.net/magazine/news/coronavirus/drosten-optimistisch-chance-herbst-winter-zweite-welle-34744188

He says that maybe we will have no 2nd wave; also that in Germany the restrictions helped to avoid a large(r) number of deaths.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on May 30, 2020, 15:14:40
Good article, thank you, @Ulrich.  It's interesting to get a view into a non-Anglo media. :cool

Here's an article on British music and the current crisis:  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/30/music-venues-british-culture-taskforce

QuoteThe Taskforce (only one member under 40!) includes the director of a Lincolnshire theme-park Fantasy Island, yet no direct mention of music, even in the sub-committees it will set-up, which will cover "sport, entertainment and events, museums and galleries, heritage, tourism and libraries". In normal times, no one would expect a Conservative government to proactively care about a world that consistently rallies opposition to it, and which – up late, non-conformist, possibly on drugs – is the antithesis of middle England. But given live music's cultural and economic heft (£1.1bn annually), you might imagine that in a national emergency, culture secretary Oliver Dowden would feel grudgingly obliged to support it.


First Dog drips with satire at the resumption of football in Australia.  :lol:

(https://media.guim.co.uk/4a21546b53b8539a134c6cc9c06b67139996ac09/0_0_3508_5498/3508.jpg)

from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/29/take-that-covid-19-you-cant-stop-the-compulsory-emotional-juggernaut-that-is-footy
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on June 01, 2020, 06:36:11
So this is exactly why everyone wearing masks in confined environments like public transport is so essential, and why wearing masks in public places with other people not of your household is a good idea:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/30/could-nearly-half-of-those-with-covid-19-have-no-idea-they-are-infected

...and this is why the moment there is community transmission you basically have to treat yourself as potentially infectious, although asymptomatic - to safeguard against spreading the disease.  For the same reason wearing a seatbelt is a good idea:  Not for the 999 times you don't need it, but the one time you do.

...as two friends who've been through a SARS epidemic have said to me from the start, while there was still general ummhing and aaahing about it in the West.  (SARS, like COVID-19, is a coronavirus, and a better model of comparison than flu).

One way asymptomatic people can spread virus without even realising it:

- because they too cough to clear throats and sneeze from general irritation, which will spread infected droplets unless a mask is on (to someone physically close to them, and to surfaces)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on June 03, 2020, 09:35:04
A commentary:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/31/donald-trump-coronavirus-pandemic-george-floyd-minneapolis-tweets

Quote from: undefinedBy having no constructive response to any of the monumental crises now convulsing America, Trump has abdicated his office.

He is not governing. He's golfing, watching cable TV and tweeting.

Trump's response to the last three ghastly months of mounting disease and death has been just as heedless. Since claiming Covid-19 was a "Democratic hoax" and muzzling public health officials, he has punted management of the coronavirus to the states.

Governors have had to find ventilators to keep patients alive and protective equipment for hospital and other essential workers who lack it, often bidding against each other. They have had to decide how, when and where to reopen their economies.

Trump has claimed "no responsibility at all" for testing and contact-tracing – the keys to containing the virus. His new "plan" places responsibility on states to do their own testing and contact-tracing.
:unamused:   :mad:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on June 03, 2020, 12:36:51
It seems we're reading the same articles!  :)  I'd just read that.  Did you catch the Guardian pieces about that UK advisor whose nose has to be longer than Pinocchio's?  ...calls a sightseeing trip to a castle with a toddler in the back an "eyesight test"...   :rofl  :evil:  :1f629:

This landed in my inbox courtesy of Crikey yesterday:

QuoteINDEPENDENT AUTOPSY FINDINGS TO BE RELEASED

According to The Sydney Morning Herald's live blog, the attorney for George Floyd's family is set to release findings from an independent autopsy into Floyd's death, while Donald Trump has called on a collection of governors to "dominate" (https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/politics/donald-trump-race-police/index.html) and arrest protesters.

The news comes after protesters surrounded the White House, a semi-trailer driver was arrested for speeding into a Minneapolis protest (https://www.9news.com.au/world/semi-trailer-truck-drives-through-crowds-of-protesters-in-minneapolis-freeway-george-floyd-death/90980750-9019-4627-b18e-e0da2982c98d), a third man was killed — this time in a shooting with Kentucky police and the National Guard (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/one-dead-louisville-after-police-national-guard-return-fire-protesters-n1220831) — and even more frankly unbelievable police actions, with some newer examples including:

* Las Vegas police just kind of grabbing and dragging a random passer-by (https://www.instagram.com/p/CA14rooHIC6/);
* Phoenix Police putting ICE holds (https://twitter.com/LUCHA_AZ/status/1267224828408483842) on three arrested protesters; and
* NYPD union the Sergeants Benevolent Association (https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/protesters-take-to-nyc-streets-for-4th-day-mayor-says-no-curfew-planned-for-sunday-night/2440286/) doxxing New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio's daughter Chiara de Blasio, who, after being arrested for protesting, had her arrest information published on Twitter including her home address and ID number.

On the protesters' end, The Associate Press (https://apnews.com/a2797b342b4fc509e43f404817a56aa9?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam&stream=top) reports that at least 4400 people have been arrested for offences ranging from stealing and vandalism to blocking highways, breaking curfew, and peacefully protesting. In one of the more delightful, still-at-large counterexamples, someone has apparently blocked the Chicago police scanner (https://twitter.com/alexcollyard/status/1267265346014191616) with the 2007 hit Chocolate Rain.

PS: As Perth Now (https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/perth/hundreds-gather-in-perth-cbd-as-black-lives-matter-protest-draws-attention-to-aboriginal-deaths-in-custody-ng-b881564931z) reports, hundreds of Western Australians rallied in Perth last night both in solidarity and in protest of Indigenous deaths in custody.

One good thing about the ubiquity of mobile phones these days is that these kinds of abuses often get recorded by someone's camera... when I followed the links in the above article yesterday, I was just gobsmacked.  I couldn't believe what I was seeing, even though I've heard about this so many times.  To see this stuff is so confronting...

I don't want to start a topic on this stuff because it would be too depressing.  I just thought of this in response to the stupidity of Trump as regards COVID-19, and this is just another example of an issue in which his response is totally incompetent.  I'm very heartened to see so many people saying they've had enough, and the international support.  It's just unfortunate that we have a pandemic at the same time we're having these much-needed protests everywhere.  :worried:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: piggymirror on June 03, 2020, 18:13:16
Quote from: SueC on June 03, 2020, 12:36:51This landed in my inbox courtesy of Crikey yesterday:

Poor George Floyd used to be best friends with a former NBA player, Stephen Jackson, who was infamous for being one of the "bad boys" of the Indiana Pacers basketball team who got into that terrible brawl with the Detroit Pistons in the Palace of Auburn Hills (coincidentally where The Cure's Show was recorded). He wasn't a bad boy at all in the "real" world outside basketball, though, and he already was an anti-racist activist before this shambles happened.
You can guess the state Mr Jackson is in now...  :1f62d:
Most of the NBA is quite angry at this scandal.

The worse of it all, is... how does someone called "Chauvin" get no education to what his name means, and ends up committing a horrible racist and chauvinist crime, and worse, in front of the cameras/mobile phones, and as a cop in duty?
Not to say how Chauvin is a French (ie, non-Anglo) name, and someone should also have explained to him what things like Le Grand Dérangement were?

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose...

That said, it also looks like anyone can be a cop, because such "I can't breathe" scenes have sadly also happened in Spain... only that in our case the poor guy was a white, gay, HIV-positive man (the cops obviously didn't know, which is no excuse).

However, it's also true that cops often have very strained jobs and schedules.
So blame cuts, too.

Then there are all the demonstrators and rioters (and cops and National Guard) obviously not respecting anti-coronavirus social distancing any longer...
And then you have Donnie McDonface strutting around "I'll send them the army!" all over the place, because he's had riots just outside the White House.

I think we're in for some even more "interesting times"...

Jeez, it's all so fvcked up it's almost neverending.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on June 04, 2020, 03:36:56
More depressing stuff about that in the Inbox this morning, but also this heartening story of what people are doing for each other:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/02/us/dc-protesters-sheltered-trnd/index.html

I did notice in the last couple of days looking at the protests, that the protestors seem to be majority mask-wearing*, more so the general US populace, some of whom argue terribly about their "rights" when asked to wear a mask in a shop.  (Friends from the US have related to me some choice observations about people ranting to store security about American freedom when asked to wear a mask for the safety of the community.   :1f635: )

PS:  Someone once told me that everyone is useful.  The very worst people serve as bad examples.

*and in marked contrast to the "end lockdown" and "COVID is a hoax" type protestors!  Not many masks there...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on June 04, 2020, 10:01:36
Quote from: SueC on June 03, 2020, 12:36:51It seems we're reading the same articles!

Yeah, I got friends from UK and some share these articles on FB or elsewhere...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on June 19, 2020, 10:31:31
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2020/jun/18/seismic-torturous-and-gruelling-forgotten-uk-arts-workers-fall-through-support-cracks
 :1f62a:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on June 19, 2020, 12:51:46
Quote from: Ulrich on June 19, 2020, 10:31:31https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2020/jun/18/seismic-torturous-and-gruelling-forgotten-uk-arts-workers-fall-through-support-cracks
 :1f62a:

Yes, here too, yet the Catholic clergy just got on COVID-19 payments in Australia, which is why I ranted here (http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=9319.msg773107;topicseen#msg773107)... :evil:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on June 19, 2020, 13:03:56
Sadly it's the same thing (almost) everywhere...

http://kuenstlersoforthilfe-stuttgart.de/
QuoteGegründet haben wir die Initiative Künstler*innensoforthilfe als private Gruppe am Montag, 16 März.

Über Facebook/Instagram (Joe Bauer) und private Kontakte rufen wir zu Spenden für Künstler*innen und Kulturschaffende  im Raum Stuttgart auf, die aufgrund  der Pandemie-Krise in Not geraten sind. Viele sind  ohne jegliches Einkommen, oft haben sie auch noch ihren Nebenjob verloren.

Unsere kleine Initiative ist gedacht als Zeichen der Solidarität. Künstlerische und kulturelle Arbeit betrachten wir als unverzichtbar für ein humanes gesellschaftspolitisches  Leben und den kritischen Blick auf die Verhältnisse. Auch geht es uns darum, die Freiheiten eines internationalen, antirassistischen Miteinanders gegen die Feinde der Demokratie zu  verteidigen – und GEMEINSAM etwas zu TUN.

Den Begriff "Künstler*in" sehen wir keineswegs eng, vielmehr gilt unsere Unterstützung Kulturarbeit im weitesten Sinn: Wer z.  B. mit Veranstaltungsstätten zu tun hat, mit Veranstaltungstechnik und ähnlichen Tätigkeiten, gehört ebenso zu unserem Kreis.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on June 29, 2020, 09:42:15
The Cure via FB:

QuoteYouGov poll shows that 31% of people want to see big changes in the way the economy is run coming out of the crisis, with a further 28% wanting to see moderate changes and only 6% of people wanting to see no changes.

https://greennewdealgroup.org
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on July 01, 2020, 00:35:35
The story is infuriating, the way Crikey presented it is excellent, and I'm sure we're not the only country with such lunatics in charge.  From this morning's news email:


QuoteWAR! WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR? $270 BILLION, IT SEEMS

According to The New Daily, Scott Morrison will today announce a 10-year, $270 billion military package, to include long-range missiles, armed drones, and anti-submarine warfare capabilities.

The funding, which follows the $1.3 billion cyber-warfare boost outlined yesterday and comes as Australia grapples with a recession, is $75 billion more than a figure originally outlined in Malcolm Turnbull's 2016 Defence White Paper.

In his address at the Australian Defence Force Academy, Morrison will claim the record spending comes ahead of "a post-COVID world that is poorer, more dangerous and more disorderly".

FUN FACT: Permanently increasing JobSeeker to above poverty-levels would cost between $7-17 billion a year — not including the net economic benefit from supporting low-income spenders — while the ABC's job-destroying 2020-21 budget has been cut from $1.181 billion to $1.065 billion. Just some figures to keep in mind next time we are told what Australia can and cannot afford!

...JobSeeker is the new name for Australian unemployment support payments, which were well below the poverty line and resulted in much homelessness and despair before lots of people became unemployed with COVID-19 and the government then was forced to "temporarily" double the payments so people could eat and pay rent, now that they couldn't simply vilify the unemployed as "dole bludgers" and "leaners" and "entitled" anymore (because it would have cost them the votes of the many newly unemployed)... :evil:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on July 08, 2020, 01:35:17
Two articles that really nail it this morning.  The first, on COVID-19 and international citizenship:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/07/us-eu-travel-coronavirus-covid-19

...and another on the next step in BLM, not just protesting...the harder part:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/06/black-lives-matter-protests-change-demands
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on July 10, 2020, 07:16:56
Something fun from Japan about rollercoaster etiquette during the pandemic:  "Please scream inside your heart!"  :lol:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53344447
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on July 10, 2020, 09:51:34
QuoteReopening is a mess. Photographs of crowds jostling outside bars, patrons returning to casinos, and a tightly packed, largely maskless audience listening to President Donald Trump's speech at Mount Rushmore all show the U.S. careening back to pre-coronavirus norms. Meanwhile, those of us watching at home are like the audience of a horror movie, yelling "Get out of there!" at our screens. As despair rises, the temptation to shame people who fail at social distancing becomes difficult to resist.

But Americans' disgust should be aimed at governments and institutions, not at one another. Individuals are being asked to decide for themselves what chances they should take, but a century of research on human cognition shows that people are bad at assessing risk in complex situations. During a disease outbreak, vague guidance and ambivalent behavioral norms will lead to thoroughly flawed thinking.
Read more at
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/reopening-psychological-morass/613858/
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on July 10, 2020, 13:43:31
You know, @Ulrich, I'm scratching my head - because when I recently commiserated with some American online pals about the horrendous situation in the States, I basically got, "What horrendous situation?" and when I said it was shocking that measures against the virus were taken so late and lockdown happened way too late and then they opened before the curve was properly flat, I got, "Our curve is flat.  And our hospitals are coping."  And when I said, "Well, look what happened in New York!" I got, "Well, New York handled it badly."  And when I said, "Well, I've seen updates on the American situation, and they don't look good!" I got, "The overseas media reports negatively on America."   :1f635:

I don't know what to say anymore, so I'm saying nothing.  Also all that whining about mask-wearing - honestly.  We're in a respiratory pandemic, for goodness' sake, and masks are an effective tool in the arsenal, and it's not a big thing to be doing.  I don't want to hear about how people's freedom is being infringed because they should wear a mask.  And funnily, we're not hearing people carrying on about that here, now that mask-wearing is officially recommended in Melbourne.

And here was a great comment from a Crikey reader today, on the second wave and lockdown in Melbourne:

QuoteGraeski
July 10, 2020 at 1:49 pm

The fact remains that we are still all in this together. The virus is as infectious as ever and irresponsible behaviour on the part of a few can have disastrous consequences for all.

If you visit the ABC website today you'll find a report on a study from the UK that shows that a key differentiator of those nations that were successful in the first CoVid wave was their sense of communal solidarity (https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/covid-19-coronavirus-solidarity-leadership-lockdown-lessons/12440372).

This study reflects what most of us would expect intuitively. We were all pleasantly surprised at the way our federal and state governments managed to put their differences aside for the common good in complete contrast to previous behaviour, while events in the US clearly demonstrate the failure that comes when leaders try and maximise personal political advantage by sowing division amongst their constituents.

The media plays a critical role in maintaining this sense of solidarity. The actions of Fox News in the US over the course of the pandemic and, similarly, News Corp's various Australian outlets, have in my opinion been nothing short of criminal. I believe that in the US, they have been indirectly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of people.

Unfortunately, the articles that Crikey has run over the past few days also seem to be showing an increased propensity for criticism of government actions. It may well be that these criticisms are warranted, but a strong emphasis on negativity also eats away at the social solidarity that is our chief weapon in the fight against the virus.

I know that Crikey values its standing as a source of hard-hitting journalism. I also know that you've been running a determined campaign to increase subscriptions lately. I'm just one subscriber and I don't expect my voice to count for much, but can I respectfully request that your editors and journalists reconsider the direction you are taking with your reporting of the pandemic's progress? At the very least, if you feel it essential to public interest that particular government failings need to be highlighted or exposed, try and balance those reports with something positive. You are a moral, responsible and professional news organisation and you have set a high bar for yourselves. Please don't let us down.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on July 12, 2020, 10:47:49
Quote from: SueC on July 10, 2020, 13:43:31... I got, "The overseas media reports negatively on America."

Well, there is a tendency to be "critical" towards the U.S. in (some) media. (And I admit myself, even if Trump did something good, I would go looking for the "hair in the soup"!!)

There is an ugly flipside to this, because some left-wing extremists go way over the top:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8513779/DOUGLAS-MURRAY-Overgrown-babies-say-think-like-invading-bedrooms.html

QuoteThere's been a steadily rising tide of conformity in recent years. Increasingly, we have been told what we are allowed to say, hear, see and know.

Swarming over the internet, the Left-wing mob is waging a campaign to silence dissenting voices and get free-thinking people removed from their jobs. And they have succeeded. Now the wokerati want to enter the bedroom and say who we may sleep with, too.

Take last week's attempt to 'cancel' the Killing Eve actress Jodie Comer. Her crime? Nothing she has said or thought.

Instead, the online trolls had been enraged to discovered who she is dating. The supposed culprit is an American lacrosse player called James Burke.

His crime? Mr Burke is alleged to be a registered Republican and a Donald Trump supporter. Cue an internet meltdown and a demand by activists that Comer be prevented from working again.

It's ludicrous. How can anyone demand that we restrict ourselves to partners who are in 100 per cent ideological alignment with the views of a Left-wing sect?

(DIsclaimer: I don't agree with everything said in that article, I'm just trying to show the other side of the coin.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on July 12, 2020, 12:07:34
Well, that's extremism for you!   :1f635:   Thank you, @Ulrich, much appreciated.  I need an Understandascope!

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.bUXzb7YW0ufJqAoBE_ibtAHaFj%26pid%3DApi&f=1)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on July 13, 2020, 10:47:08
Rather worrying, new infections worldwide on the rise:

QuoteInnerhalb von einem Tag sind die gemeldeten Zahlen an Neuinfektionen so hoch, wie noch nie zuvor seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie. Ein Land ist besonders betroffen.
https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/panorama/id_88218928/coronavirus-neuinfektionen-erreichen-weltweit-rekordwert.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on July 14, 2020, 00:43:52
This one surely qualifies for a Darwin Award this year:

Quote from: undefined30-year-old dies after attending 'Covid party' in Texas

Patient said: 'I think I made a mistake, I thought this was a hoax, but it's not', according to health official.

from https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/13/30-year-old-dies-covid-party-texas

That's right, a Covid party - where someone who returned a positive test is present so other people can test whether or not it is possible to get SARS-CoV-2 off them.   :1f635:

Human stupidity knows no bounds and like the universe, is always expanding...

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimg0.joyreactor.com%2Fpics%2Fpost%2Fdemotivation-posters-auto-348310.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on July 15, 2020, 13:54:49
Quote from: SueC on July 14, 2020, 00:43:52This one surely qualifies for a Darwin Award this year...

I had the same thought when I'd heard this piece of news!
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on July 16, 2020, 01:04:18
Do you know what, @Ulrich?  I actually nominated that one on their website yesterday and got a message back that it was "unsuitable"...  Ha.  Seemed to be a perfect example to me.  :evil:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on July 24, 2020, 00:37:27
Fabulous article yesterday by Bernard Keane on the relationship between coronavirus transmission and workplace deregulation:

https://www.crikey.com.au/2020/07/23/economy-deregulation-coronavirus/


QuoteAustralia's deregulated, fluid economy creates the perfect conditions for the virus to thrive

Microbes are brilliant at exploiting human economic structures. And our 21st century economy provides opportunities for them to resist even concerted attempts at elimination.


As Victoria is discovering, and the rest of us may yet discover, COVID-19 is perfectly habituated to a 21st century economy centred around services delivered by outsourced, precarious workforces.

Daniel Andrews, whatever his faults, at least recognises the role of insecure work in driving people to continue going to work even if they're feeling ill, enabling the transmission of the virus. And many of those jobs are in service industries, which exposes more people to potential infection.

The acceleration in infection is thus a US-style outcome to a US-style feature of our economy — that despite Medicare, and a better industrial relations system, workers are still faced with an invidious choice of working while ill or losing income.

The current $1500 payment for casual workers if they become infected is little help for people deciding to lose a few days' shifts for the good of the community.

It's not a choice many people on higher incomes face. And the government is giving federal politicians time off work rather than requiring them to attend parliament, without any loss of income. High-profile journalists, enjoying incomes multiples of those of people in insecure work, scold lower-income people for their irresponsibility.

But many are doing exactly what our economy requires them to do. Australia was once the land — so we told ourselves — of worker self-indulgence, a national that honoured the great tradition of chucking a sickie, of putting the feet up rather than doing the hard yakka (funnily enough, that was also when our labour productivity was significantly higher than now, but anyway).

Since the 1990s — when the level of casualisation in the workforce dramatically increased, though it has stayed relatively level since then — that's changed fundamentally.

The rapidly expanding personal service economy enabled by the internet has accelerated that in recent years, creating terms like "gig economy" and "side hustle" to describe what has replaced full-time, secure work. And the war in penalty rates conducted by business and the Coalition has only increased pressure on the incomes of people in casual work.

And these are jobs that the worried well of the middle class — including well-paid journalists — expect as part of the modern economy. The barista to make a coffee whenever you want; the driver to deliver your food and transport you across town at your command; the petsitter to look after your animals; the cleaner you need at home because you and your partner are too busy. All jobs where if you miss a shift, you don't get paid.

That's a related but quite separate matter to the growth of labour hire and outsourcing, by both governments and the private sector, of what used to be specialist roles but now appears to be pretty much anything, including security guards.

Labour hire, a sector rife with exploitation and wage theft, offers not merely a lower-cost form of labour than bothering to employ someone, but it also outsources responsibility for any problems.

...

For millennia, viruses and bacteria have cleverly adapted to and thrived in human structures — the settled communities that followed agriculture, the towns and cities that created employment, economies of scale and innovation, the networks that connected them together.

Human economic activity provides the infrastructure for infection, and our latest innovations of outsourcing, insecure work and leaving housing to the marketplace have provided a perfect environment for COVID-19 to resist our attempts to eradicate it. It's a viral world; we just deregulate in it.

...and yet what's our right-wing treasurer calling for this very morning?  According to this morning's Crikey news email:

QuoteTreasurer Josh Frydenberg has identified the first cab off the policy rank in the government's quest to reverse a "free fall" in business investment: industrial relations reform, aimed at "injecting greater flexibility into the labour market".

"Our view is that those flexibilities that apply to the employer, and give them the ability to change duties, to change hours and to change the location of staff, should continue, not just for those firms that meet the reapplied eligibility test, but should apply to those firms on JobKeeper right now," he said.

In case you needed reminding, the vast majority of this second wave comes down to "flexible" (see deregulated) work — casuals who worked while ill because they didn't have access to sick pay, untrained security guards hired over WhatsApp, and now, underqualified and inadequately trained staff without access to proper PPE at aged care homes.

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on July 27, 2020, 04:53:25
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on July 29, 2020, 11:50:31
Rather worrying:

https://hyperallergic.com/578563/aam-survey-one-third-museums-reopen/

Quote from: undefinedNews from the cultural sector has not been hope-inspiring as of late — mass layoffs and furloughs continue to plague US institutions, with reopening dates in some states increasingly uncertain as the virus continues to spread. The latest survey to measure COVID-19's impact on the industry, conducted by the American Alliance of Museums (AAM), does not augur well for museums: a third of them — a total of 12,000 organizations — may never reopen.
:'(
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on August 02, 2020, 02:22:04
REFLECTING HALF A YEAR IN...

So, we've been living with COVID-19 in our societies for about half a year, and I was thinking about our initial responses when this was on the horizon, and what we've learnt since.

I was happy to see David post this topic back in late February with the title and slant he gave it - i.e. not sensationalising, just facts.  :cool  It was helpful to remember as this was heading our way that in the majority of cases, the illness caused by SARS-CoV-2 is mild.

And while that's how it turned out, I've got to say the thing that amazed me the most about COVID-19 is just how much havoc can be created in a society by a virus with a fatality rate of 0.5-1% - and that's still the figure being mooted by most commenting epidemiologists now - because so many people have it (often mildly / asymptomatically) and were never tested and therefore aren't in the count - and of course, fatality rates increase when hospitals can't handle all the cases who need support (because of poor resourcing / curves not being flat enough).

It's the first time those present here have been in a pandemic, so it's a learning experience.  While of course pandemics are always a theoretical possibility, and increasingly so as the planet becomes more overcrowded with humans and the remaining non-human biota get more and more stressed, when this one did finally sneak up on us, it was a bit like the boy who cried wolf.

How was that for all of you?  I've got to admit, I was mostly media fasting when this all began, due to the lamentable state of human society on the macro scale and not wanting my energy drained away unnecessarily by having that in my face all the time, and I'm generally cynical when mass media are presenting a new bogeyman (especially as they concomitantly tend to ignore or minimise real, actual problems - especially the commercial, non-independent media).  So, for me, the point I began to sit up and take note was when an online pal who edits a medical journal said, "This thing that's coming is serious."  I'd known her well enough for long enough to respect her judgement on matters like this, and that's when I started keeping an eye on this bug, also aided by an online thread she made with non-sensationalised, reliable information on it (including links to published medical studies etc).

The pandemic broke my media fast - in part because of the acceleration of positive developments that have come with it, like the increasing support for BLM and other social justice movements, the removal of offensive statues and their dumping in harbours etc by everyday people around the world (attempts to go through the official channels simply didn't work, as is often the case), the increasing levels of communication and connection about things that mattered amongst people during lockdown, the real-world demonstration in Australia that the sky didn't fall in if you gave unemployed people enough money to buy medicine and vegetables (funny how they doubled the social security money when a lot of the middle class was suddenly out of work - and of course, enough people were now personally affected for it to potentially affect the vote) - things like that.

I always regretted missing the 60s, which had seemed to me the last point in history where there had been a chance the West was going to choose a different path.  But now, we have another slim opportunity to make that happen, while the juggernaut of business-as-usual has been slowed down, and its faults have been so emphatically highlighted by COVID-19.  A pandemic isn't a fun thing, but when it happens on the Titanic, is there a possibility that it will get us to change course instead of heading blithely for the iceberg?  Maybe, just maybe, will it teach us that we are fragile organisms in a pillaged, endangered biosphere, and not free-floating economic entities with consequence-free lives?

Thoughts and love to anyone living in areas which are currently experiencing outbreaks.  Hang in there, @word_on_a_wing, @piggymirror, anyone else where things are nosediving again. ♥
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on August 03, 2020, 09:54:35
Quote from: SueC on August 02, 2020, 02:22:04So, we've been living with COVID-19 in our societies for about half a year...

Half a year? I gotta admit it starts to feel like 100 years...  :persevere:  :unamused:

Some politicians are talking about a 2nd wave - but looking at the numbers (e.g. from the local newspaper) I don't see it right now here in Germany.

In my humble opinion, they shouldn't have allowed travelling so soon. In theory, you're supposed to go into quarantine when coming home from abroad and/or be tested, but no-one really controls if this gets done at all.  :?

Then politicians talk about the rules, which should be followed, but at the same time there's a huge demonstration in Berlin against those rules (and most of them didn't wear masks, didn't keep distance).  :confounded:

I don't know... if there should be a "2nd wave", restrictions should be regionally - we can't afford to put the whole of Germany in "lockdown" again.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on August 06, 2020, 13:02:25
Quote from: Ulrich on August 03, 2020, 09:54:35In my humble opinion, they shouldn't have allowed travelling so soon. In theory, you're supposed to go into quarantine when coming home from abroad and/or be tested, but no-one really controls if this gets done at all.  :?

Yeah, I agree with you; in Australia people still have to quarantine if they cross the national border, which is only allowed for a small number of reasons, and not for general travel.  That's been helpful, and has been stringently enforced, but you can see what happens if unqualified people / people breaking protocol supervise hotel quarantines and carry the virus back home with them, as happened in Melbourne, which now has a second wave that's caused more infections and deaths than the first wave did in the whole of Australia.  :worried:  We had quarantine breaches in WA too, like one guy getting out through a fire door to catch public transport to go sightseeing, instead of staying in the quarantine hotel.  We just got lucky so far, but one day we won't be.  If an interstate truck driver stuffs up protocol while unknowingly infected, it can set off community transmission too.

Interstate borders are also helpful with their various travel restrictions, but of course some idiots with lots of money have been trying to take WA to court for having a largely closed border.  I heard that hearing at least got suspended until October, which is a good start.


QuoteThen politicians talk about the rules, which should be followed, but at the same time there's a huge demonstration in Berlin against those rules (and most of them didn't wear masks, didn't keep distance).  :confounded:

OMG, you've got "freedom" protestors in Germany?  We've got a small proportion of nutters here too doing this, but not on a big scale so far.  Our biggest protests are BLM and they've been at pains to wear masks, follow social distancing and use hand sanitiser, and so far not a single transmission is linked to the BLM protests in Australia.


QuoteI don't know... if there should be a "2nd wave", restrictions should be regionally - we can't afford to put the whole of Germany in "lockdown" again.

That's what's happening here.  Lockdowns are in regions where outbreaks are.  It's the same principle as something I learnt last year, when Brett and I both got the flu very badly for the first time in our lives (horizontal for two weeks, breathing difficulties, bronchitis):  If one of us comes home ill, we have to isolate from each other in separate rooms/bathrooms, because it's not good when every household member goes down at the same time.  If one of us can avoid getting infected, they can better support the sick person.  Sadly, snuggling up to a virus-infected spouse may feel like support, but in a couple of days that can make two very ill people.  I think it's the same with different regions in a country - if we can avoid all going down at once, we can better support each other.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on August 24, 2020, 08:51:02
A nice little article on COVID-19 risk factors, and the role of good nutrition in reducing susceptibility to infection:  https://drdingle.com/covid-nutrition-the-gut-and-inflammaging/

By Dr Peter Dingle, my erstwhile toxicology lecturer - a guy with a first-rate research brain, who has always been interested in lifestyle diseases and how to prevent them - and public education on this been his focus for the last couple of decades.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on August 24, 2020, 14:15:32
Quite a good analysis (German only, sorry) of the protesters against the Corona measures.

https://www.neues-deutschland.de/artikel/1140754.corona-rebellen-paranoia-taktik-und-spektakel.html

QuoteWiderstehen muss man jedenfalls einem Reflex: alles, was nicht vernünftig ist, als idiotisch und alles, was nicht moralisch ist, als kriminell abzutun. Denn das Verhalten von Menschen, wie destruktiv und soziophob auch immer, hat Ursachen, »Erklärungen«, hat einen psychologischen Unter- und einen ideologischen Überbau.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on September 18, 2020, 11:58:31
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/15/sweden-records-its-fewest-daily-covid-19-cases-since-march

Quote"We don't have the resurgence of the disease that many countries have," Anders Tegnell, the country's chief epidemiologist and architect of its no-lockdown strategy, told broadcaster France-24 in an interview, adding that the country was broadly happy with its overall strategy.

"In the end, we will see how much difference it will make to have a strategy that's more sustainable, that you can keep in place for a long time, instead of the strategy that means that you lock down, open up and lock down over and over again."

Unlike many countries, Sweden closed schools for the over-16s but kept those for younger pupils open, insisting on full attendance. Schools and universities are now open again.

It also banned gatherings of more than 50 people and told people over 70 and in at-risk groups to self-isolate.

Otherwise, the population of 10 million was asked, rather than ordered, to respect physical distancing and work from home if possible, which it largely did. Shops, bars, restaurants and gyms stayed open and the wearing of masks has not so far been recommended.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on October 05, 2020, 18:57:26
In my humble opinion, it is time (in Germany at least) to slow down with the "panic-making" and fear-mongering.

QuoteMan habe in Deutschland derzeit eine völlig normale Sterblichkeitsrate. Bei der Hitzewelle 2018 und bei der Grippewelle 2017 habe man sehr viel deutlicher eine Übersterblichkeit gesehen. "Wir haben es mit einem ernstzunehmenden Virus zu tun, aber wir dürfen dieses Virus nicht mehr überdramatisieren."

Streeck wies darauf hin, dass die Sterblichkeit von Corona-Infizierten sehr viel niedriger sei als man das im Frühjahr befürchtet hatte. "Dieses Virus ist tödlich nur für wenige. Genauso wie viele andere Viren auch", meinte Streeck.

Die zunehmenden Erkenntnisse der Wissenschaft sollten Mut machen: Es gebe fast keine Übertragung über Gegenstände. Auch gebe es im normalen Alltagsgeschäft - etwa im Einzelhandel - wenige Ansteckungsrisiken. Viele Infektionen verliefen komplett ohne Symptome. Nur noch fünf Prozent der Infizierten bräuchten überhaupt eine klinische Versorgung, weitaus weniger gar eine intensivmedizinische.

Streeck plädiert für ein Ende des Krisen- und Panikmodus, der Umgang mit dem Virus müsse zur in ein normales Risikohandling wie bei vielen anderen Risiken des Lebens auch übergehen. Ängste zu schüren sei der falsche Weg, weil man damit die Gesellschaft spalte und die Akzeptanz für eigenverantwortliche Achtsamkeit schwäche.

Maskenpflichten etwa an der frischen Luft seien unsinnig. "Wir brauchen einen Wechsel im Krisenmanagement. Wir dürfen die Krise nicht verwalten, sondern müssen Lösungen finden. Sorgsam pragmatische Lösungen", empfiehlt der Virologe.
https://www.gmx.net/magazine/news/coronavirus/virologe-hendrik-streeck-verbotspolitik-corona-pandemie-35144824
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: MeltingMan on October 06, 2020, 13:39:29
Quote from: Ulrich on October 05, 2020, 18:57:26In my humble opinion, it is time (in Germany at least) to slow down with the "panic-making" and fear-mongering.

Around 800,000 people die every year in Germany statistically. Of these, an estimated 10,000-20,000 from the "normal" flu or its complications if it is not treated in time or properly. Risk groups are the elderly, children and hospital staff. Was it necessary to paralyze a country or an entire continent? I dare not to answer. Viruses are only comfortable in the cold. No wonder that meat processing companies were and are affected, because rooms there have to be permanently cooled. This brings us to the upcoming "cold" season. If everyone, really everyone (and not just two thirds), obeys the rules, I don't see any problems. Unfortunately, this is currently not the case - not in Germany.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on October 06, 2020, 17:01:43
Quote from: MeltingMan on October 06, 2020, 13:39:29Was it necessary to paralyze a country or an entire continent? I dare not to answer.

In March it was probably a good idea (for a while). However in late April or early May it was obvious that not so many "emergency" beds in hospital were needed (as feared a few weeks before).

What we'd need now is to learn from the numbers (not just have them presented to us in media). What we need is hope and a perspective - especially artists/musicians, technicians (roadies) and many more people working in the socalled "showbusiness".
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on October 07, 2020, 06:56:53
For what it's worth, I think the early and hard lockdown policies have served countries like Australia, NZ, Taiwan very well - Taiwan's the real star here; internal life there is relatively normal again - their experience with a SARS epidemic a while back had them extremely well prepared for a pandemic.  In WA we're locked off from the rest of the country with hard border closures and two-week compulsory quarantines for repatriating Australians and anyone else let in on a special permit, but we're big enough to keep an internal economy going - and a large majority (>85%) of the WA population has approved of the way COVID-19 was handled here so far this year - including quickly applied COVID-19 protocols like early lockdown, banning unessential travel, restrictions on social gatherings, adoption of compulsory hand hygiene when entering shops, insistence that people with respiratory symptoms don't go to work and get tested quickly, isolation of suspected cases, etc.

As the weeks with zero documented community transmission increased, restrictions were eased, but not entirely removed.  We could potentially have a second wave like Victoria, since the virus is present in our state (in quarantine, and also potentially coming in with transport crews etc) - all it takes is a single breach of protocol by an infected person (who may not be aware they are infected), combined with breaches of social distancing and hygiene protocols by the general public, to start community transmission, which goes like a runaway train - when you've documented the first one, there's likely dozens undocumented out there already, etc.

Not everyone plays along here, but I've been pleasantly surprised by the supportiveness of the general Australian citizenry for the medical advice, and the extra powers given to deal with people who aren't cooperating.  All in all, I think it's nice for most of Australia (and Victoria is getting there again too, which is fantastic) to be operating far more normally than most other countries now, as a result of go hard, go early policies, including with the second wave lockdown in Melbourne.  Ditto NZ; and Taiwan has been better than either of us Antipodean countries for preventing transmission and quickly tracing outbreaks.

It helps to be an island, but South Korea is also doing pretty well: https://www.wsj.com/articles/lessons-from-south-korea-on-how-to-manage-covid-11601044329

Personally, neither Brett nor I think it's a huge imposition for us to keep following social distancing and hygiene protocols, not go out if we're ill, to wear masks in public indoors or even crowded outdoors spaces, and not to holiday interstate or overseas even in the medium term - and a byproduct for WA has been a historical record low in colds and flus this year, too.  In WA and other places without documented community transmission, if we all comply with this, then most of what are probably inevitable outbreaks will be able to be contained by contact tracing - and the rest by occasional return to lockdown, or partial lockdown - as Victoria and NZ have successfully shown.

Unless SARS-CoV-2 goes the way of SARS, or a successful vaccine is developed (and it may not be), we're not going to be back to pre-pandemic norms for quite a while.  Meanwhile, keeping levels of virus low in the community is the best chance any of us have for continuing to make a living; e.g. we're hosting farmstays again, after an initial three-month closedown; most people here are back at work, with added precautions; and as a society we ought to help people in occupations that have taken a hit to find other meaningful paid things to do (there are many meaningful things that need doing urgently) - of course, the right-wingers would scream "socialism" - they prefer legal robbery of the masses by the well-heeled.

I agree that stoking fear is stupid - we should be doing XYZ because they're sensible things that we can do to reduce the spread of this virus - the same as we should be eating nutritiously and exercising sufficiently in order to reduce our risks of contracting lifestyle diseases.  It's just commonsense; but sadly, commonsense doesn't sell trashy newspapers.

Also, I agree that wearing masks outdoors isn't necessary if you're not in a crowded situation - unless you've got respiratory symptoms, but then it would be much better if you stayed home.

By the way, it's incorrect to say, "Viruses are only comfortable in the cold. No wonder that meat processing companies were and are affected, because rooms there have to be permanently cooled."  First of all, we shouldn't generalise about viruses, because they have a wide range of characteristics and environmental preferences.  Indeed, various viruses can also spread well in warm conditions, as we've seen with COVID-19 in the US and other places this summer.  The main reason human respiratory viruses tend to spread more effectively when it's cold is because people tend to huddle together indoors more then.  The virus transmits best when there's people in close proximity breathing in someone else's infected droplets.

Indoors environments are closed off and tend to have still air, which tends to increase the concentration of airborne respiratory droplets and respiratory (and other) aerosols in the air, when people are present and breathing.  High humidity is another factor, and cold rooms can be quite humid - when you exhale, you can actually see your breath then, because of condensation of water vapour you've breathed out.  Those are floating droplets, and if you're infected, those droplets are infectious.

(Coughing and sneezing, of course, produces droplets directly; and just to complicate matters, viruses that infect the nasal passages tend to do better in low humidity because dry conditions can lead to cracking in the mucous membranes, which presents an opening in the mucus barrier that usually helps to prevent infection.  This is set against potential reduction in the life span of the respiratory droplets in low humidity, through higher evaporation rates.  There's all sorts of complexities, as is usual in these matters.  And yes, some viruses causing respiratory infections have been shown to survive longer outside a host in cold temperatures such as found in a refrigerator;  but you still need to get them into your body to get infected.)

One other issue with meatworks is the difficulty of social distancing for some of the tasks - but appropriate PPE can step in there (and is doing so).  Another is the same as with any other organisation with a lot of floor staff - it becomes more difficult to keep the virus out of the workplace.

But yeah, if we develop appropriate protocols (open to revision, refinement etc), and they're followed by everyone, then it becomes so much easier to deal with this thing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: MeltingMan on October 08, 2020, 13:06:29
Quote from: SueCThe main reason human respiratory viruses tend to spread more
when it's cold is because(...)

It remains to be clarified whether there is a connection between the meat processing industry here and customers in the Far East (China, South Korea). Cold rooms also exist on ships. The jobs there are very tough as well. Many men have wives, children, etc. I say that in contrast to the so-called one-person households, where the risk of infection is, let's say, manageable. At the moment it is no longer enough to rely on the "good will" of the citizens, as the number of cases is rising again (rapidly) in densely populated regions, but the news situation changes every hour.

Quote from: SueCHigh humidity is another factor,

But only if the living space is not properly heated. Then the relative air humidity increases (70-80% or even more).
However, the last winters were too dry (in our region).
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on October 08, 2020, 13:55:23
Quote from: MeltingMan on October 08, 2020, 13:06:29... the relative air humidity increases (70-80% or even more).
However, the last winters were too dry (in our region).

Uh-erm, I'm no expert and it is a little off-topic; but as far as I can tell, air humidity has not that much to do with not enough rain (which is usually meant when they say "it's too dry").
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on October 09, 2020, 01:40:55
Well, air humidity is affected by rainfall (immediate rainfall especially), but also by lots of other things, such as transpiration by trees and evaporation off the ocean, lakes, rivers, and other water bodies.  Transpiration by trees is a big one, since they can access groundwater and are evaporating water out of their stomata in their leaves for vast amounts of time every day.  You know how they recommend having houseplants to prevent indoor environments from being too dry?  Plants move a lot of water.  Deciduous trees obviously stop doing it when they lose their leaves in autumn, and evergreens will slow down with transpiration as temperatures drop.  And of course, the other big thing that affects humidity is temperature, which brings us to the next point.

What I think @MeltingMan is getting at is relative humidity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_humidity).  The outdoors humidity in winter in climates such as you have in Germany and we have in our part of Australia is usually high enough to prevent cracking of the mucous membranes - but when you guys heat your indoors in winter, the relative humidity drops to the point that the air can get too dry, hence the recommendation for houseplants etc.

When I was referring to a "cold room" it was in the context of meatworks and their coolrooms, but re-reading what I wrote that wasn't very clear.

On any link between export abattoirs (which we have here too) and their customers in Asia, I wasn't sure if the implication there is that someone thinks that coronavirus could be travelling from Asia on refrigerated / frozen goods etc?  If you're exporting meat etc, then you're more likely to ship coronavirus with the refrigerated goods, than to be somehow receiving it from your customers.  At this point, Asia or not is a moot point, since the virus is pandemic now, and could be accidentally shipped with anything from practically anywhere there's community transmission, but it's not a huge concern because a) the life span of the virus on surfaces isn't generally that long compared to shipping times and the amount of viable virus on surfaces has a half-life (is degrading all the time when not in a host), and b) to catch virus off surfaces, you need to get it into your mucous membranes - e.g. get an infectious quantity of viable virus on your fingertips, and then put your fingers in your eyes or nose or mouth.  Transmission through food has not been documented yet.

The life span of viable virus has been shown to be longer in refrigerated transport situations than at room temperature, and while it's not completely impossible to transfer viable virus that way, it still needs to be transferred to the mucous membranes of a person for someone to be infected.  Simple hygiene can prevent that easily.  The primary transmission route of coronavirus is person-to-person via respiratory droplets, and that's where meatworks are considered high-risk workplaces, without appropriate PPE and revised procedures.

Something I thought was very interesting was reading that many of the infections of health care workers originate not from their actual work, but from their away-from-work time in the community when there's community transmission.  This was first pointed out to me by a friend who's a nurse, who gave us some studies to read.  She said at the time, "At work I've got full PPE and I'm well trained in infectious disease protocol and hyper-aware of what I'm doing.  I'm more likely to catch it in the community."   Of course, when health care workers don't have proper PPE or training, or the shifts get overly long, that really increases the risks of catching it at work for them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: MeltingMan on October 10, 2020, 14:49:16
Well, I could have said, and I say that as a person and as a medical professional, that viruses do not like warmth, but I would probably have contradicted that too. So far we have taken an acceptable path in Germany. The subject is so abstract that nobody can say exactly how many lives we may have saved! The "bare" numbers don't make it any better. I should also have said that correct heating is linked to correct ventilation of living spaces, but that brings us to a new topic indeed.

The impression arose as if there was no or a lower risk of infection "outside". I wanted to contradict that.
The "outdoor season" is over - right! Still, when I went shopping today, I was confused. I saw parents who let their children run around without a mask. Adults who refuse to wear the mask properly, including staff. And what's worse, many don't keep their distance. But well now. I am not the health department or the regulatory authority. Thank you both. 👍🏻
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on October 10, 2020, 15:45:27
Quote from: MeltingMan on October 10, 2020, 14:49:16The "outdoor season" is over - right!

Not in Australia (and some other countries)!

Quote from: MeltingMan on October 10, 2020, 14:49:16I saw parents who let their children run around without a mask.

Here in the federal state "Baden-Württemberg" only children from the age of six do have to wear them.

https://www.baden-wuerttemberg.de/de/service/aktuelle-infos-zu-corona/faq-corona-verordnung/
QuoteMüssen Kinder Masken tragen? Ab welchem Alter?
Ab dem sechsten Geburtstag besteht für Kinder Maskenpflicht.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on October 10, 2020, 16:14:11
Quote from: MeltingMan on October 10, 2020, 14:49:16Well, I could have said, and I say that as a person and as a medical professional, that viruses do not like warmth...

I'm a qualified scientist and science educator, and have to say that your statements don't sound very scientific to me - and are often not accurate.  Like this generalised statement you've repeated about viruses and warmth.  I suppose it depends on what you mean by warmth (viruses don't survive autoclaving, but I'd not call that warmth - you'd not survive autoclaving either...).  If you've done any / remember any microbiology, I'd have expected a more rigorous discussion, and less misconceptions about the subject.


QuoteI should also have said that correct heating is linked to correct ventilation of living spaces, but that brings us to a new topic indeed.

Indeed it does.


QuoteThe impression arose as if there was no or a lower risk of infection "outside". I wanted to contradict that.

There is indeed lower risk of infection outdoors.  You can read the science on it.  If you can't find it, I can send you some links.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on October 10, 2020, 18:59:49
From what I've gathered, the human body might be more "accessible" to a virus in the winter, because the body is "busy" dealing with the coldness (or something like that). Still, even in summer, that same virus might still be around (which is why some people can get a bad "summer flu").

However, in Germany the typical "flu season" is from Dec/Jan-March/April. (Sadly, this is not the same with the Corona thing - as we were able to hear on the news this summer from UK, USA and so on.)

I would agree that "outside" is not that dangerous when it comes to Corona. (This is based on the theory that "aerosols" dissipate faster in open air - as opposed to air in rooms inside.)

However, in humid air (e.g. with a thick fog), outside is not much better. Especially when somebody talks or coughs next to you.

Please note that I'm not a scientist or virologist. This is just "info" I gathered over the last few months.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on October 11, 2020, 18:52:05
Well, @Ulrich, the Resident Rump just gave us a perfect example of how not to do the outdoors with his little shindig at the White House to try to get his judge in just before an election.  They weren't even socially distancing.  Hugging, handshaking, pretending COVID-19 either didn't exist, or that they were somehow too grand to catch it / be adversely affected by it.

But generally speaking, if you're 4-5 m away from people not in your own household going for a walk outdoors in normal circumstances (i.e. you're not anywhere near a crowd, just other incidental people walking, and stay well clear of them), then your risk of transmitting or catching COVID-19 is very low. 

Outdoors is generally lower-risk than indoors because of increased dilution and dissipation of aerosols in the greater overall air volume, usually more rapid drying of droplets, the increased space available for people to keep away from each other, and also the presence of UV light (peaks in summer), which is lethal to viruses and not that great for our own DNA either (leads to premature ageing, skin cancer etc through DNA damage).

But yeah, spot on, don't engage in the exchange of respiratory droplets/aerosols or other body fluids outdoors and imagine that's safe (hello, White House  :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:).  And yes, also, respiratory droplets and aerosols will persist longer in still, foggy conditions.  You may have noticed that different countries have adopted different recommended distances from others, e.g. 1.5m in Australia, 2m in the UK.  That's about reduction of risk, not elimination.  It's far less likely that you're going to catch a respiratory virus from someone just breathing out normally or even talking at that distance than up close.  But sneezes and coughs can propel droplets several metres (potentially 4-5 depending on wind direction etc).  This is where masks can be so helpful when you're around other people, indoors or outdoors.  Of course, avoiding people as much as possible is the gold standard, as misanthropes, people with social phobias etc may be ecstatic to hear...  :angel
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on October 29, 2020, 09:47:59
German government has just lost my support for their Corona measures. Ruining restaurants etc. is not what I consider a good idea (add to that NOT ONE single case of Covid has occurred in restaurants, due to official sources like RKI)!  :pouting-face

This is disgraceful and I hope many will file a lawsuit against it.

https://www.gmx.net/magazine/news/coronavirus/zweiter-lockdown-kampf-corona-beschlossen-gastronomen-kritisieren-einschraenkungen-35215140

Quote"Viele Unternehmer der Hotellerie und Gastronomie schwanken zwischen Wut und Verzweiflung", sagte der Hauptgeschäftsführer des Verbandes "Die Familienunternehmer", Albrecht von der Hagen, der Deutschen Presse-Agentur. Der Deutsche Hotel- und Gaststättenverbands (Dehoga) warnte, Zehntausenden Unternehmen drohe ohne umfassende finanzielle Hilfen die Pleite.

Bundestagsvizepräsident Wolfgang Kubicki (FDP) forderte die betroffenen Unternehmen zu rechtlichen Schritten auf.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on November 01, 2020, 11:00:31
This is for @word_on_a_wing, in case you've not seen this one.  Hope you're in good shape.  And thanks for everything you did to stop it spreading, from us across the Nullarbor. ♥

(https://media.guim.co.uk/a9a200a7fa7aab171fbf11291840da79cc298772/0_0_3508_6061/3508.jpg)

from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/30/melbourne-out-of-lockdown-what-a-time-to-literally-still-be-alive-well-done-everyone
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on November 02, 2020, 11:58:18
 :smth023
Victoria has had zero cases for 3 days straight, a big change, horray!! 
And after months of living a quiet life without going out much ...I'm now living a quiet life without going out much. 😆
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on November 03, 2020, 00:40:35
Haha, @word_on_a_wing!  :lol:  I go to town on average once a fortnight, and when we go out, more often than not, we're going out on a hiking trail!

Good stat to have no new cases right now - hope it stays like that for you.  In WA we've been very lucky, and I do think the early hard border closures, strict quarantining and initial lockdown restrictions were very helpful in preventing the virus from establishing itself in the WA community, so far!
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on November 04, 2020, 00:13:10
@Ulrich, here's a nice article from Australia about your country's handling of the pandemic, one of the best results in Europe.  :)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-04/germany-coronavirus-lockdown-avoided-same-fate-as-europe/12843140

I know it looks bad right now, and that you don't agree with all the measures, but you're doing comparatively well on several fronts.  Maybe your people can find a way to improve the outlook for hospitality etc, which was also hit really hard in Australia.  People supported take-away, and some restaurants actually began selling fresh farm produce to the public, because they weren't using it all anymore, and then expanded this and the locals supported it, shopping with them rather than the large supermarkets.  Another thought is:  Even if people have to terminate their businesses because of this, when (and if) it's all over, there will be opportunities to start again.  This sounds horrible, but in Australia so many people literally had to rebuild from the ashes, after bushfires - some of them uninsured, some of them losing all their farm animals etc.  Heartbreak everywhere but also incredible resilience after materially losing everything. :'(

(https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f225/154619d1271597875-black-saturday-bushfires-victoria-australia-7th-february-2009-a06_17894289.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on November 04, 2020, 16:53:06
Quote from: SueC on November 04, 2020, 00:13:10here's a nice article from Australia about your country's handling of the pandemic, one of the best results in Europe.

Well that might apply until mid-October or so. But... politicians talked all summer long about "not another lockdown, if so then only locally" etc., they went into holidays instead of making a good plan or concept against the virus. In the meantime, they also "forgot" to strengthen the hospitals with more nurses etc. (or better pay, so more people might take that job)... thus with a 2nd wave there could be problems with not enough staff!  :unamused:

In short, while in spring they did okay, over this last summer they've forgotten to do their "homework"!  :pouting-face
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on November 05, 2020, 00:01:52
I'm sorry to hear that, @Ulrich.  It's so frustrating when things get bungled.  There were plenty bungles in Australia too - like letting 2,000 passengers off the coronavirus-infested Ruby Princess in Sydney early in the pandemic without testing or quarantine, and that resulted in a lot of trouble, including two cases here in Albany (returning travellers from that cruise ship, thankfully detected, isolated and contact traced).  And, no proper procedures in place for nursing homes, resulting in rampant infections and deaths in those places...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on November 05, 2020, 09:52:06
It's not getting better, now the testing starts stuttering...

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/panorama/id_88845408/corona-news-labore-kommen-mit-dem-testen-nicht-hinterher.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on November 08, 2020, 01:13:21
Hope things get better again soon, @Ulrich.


Quote from: word_on_a_wing on November 02, 2020, 11:58:18:smth023
Victoria has had zero cases for 3 days straight, a big change, horray!!

And look how well it's going just now:

QuoteFor the ninth consecutive day, Victoria has recorded zero coronavirus cases and no further deaths.

The 14-day average of new cases has fallen from 0.9 to 0.4 in Melbourne and remains at zero in regional Victoria.

The ninth "double doughnut" day in row means just six new infections have been recorded in the two weeks to November 7, the Department of Health and Human Services says.

Just four active cases remain in Victoria, Premier Daniel Andrews said.

A total of 16,865 coronavirus test results have been processed since yesterday.
from https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-08/victoria-records-ninth-day-of-no-coronavirus-cases-or-deaths/12860442

Things looked terrible a few months ago, and could have become like in the US.  Well done you guys!  :cool
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on November 09, 2020, 10:11:15
Quote from: SueC on November 08, 2020, 01:13:21Hope things get better again soon

They probably will, then there'll be re-openings, then numbers will rise again (Xmas & NYE), so it's easy to guess in January we will get a new lockdown (light). And so on...  :unamused:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on November 09, 2020, 17:53:34
Light on the horizon?

QuoteThe first effective coronavirus vaccine can prevent more than 90% of people from getting Covid-19, a preliminary analysis shows.

The developers - Pfizer and BioNTech - described it as a "great day for science and humanity".

Their vaccine has been tested on 43,500 people in six countries and no safety concerns have been raised.

The companies plan to apply for emergency approval to use the vaccine by the end of the month.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54873105
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on November 23, 2020, 10:57:01
QuoteThe University of Oxford, in collaboration with AstraZeneca plc, today announces interim trial data from its Phase III trials that show its candidate vaccine, ChAdOx1 nCoV-2019, is effective at preventing COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2) and offers a high level of protection

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-11-23-oxford-university-breakthrough-global-covid-19-vaccine
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on November 23, 2020, 13:29:23
Woohoo Melbourne!  :cool  Day 24 with zero new identified cases in a state that was in lockdown for months because of the second wave there.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-23/victoria-records-no-new-coronavirus-cases-and-no-deaths/12909854

Also congratulations to South Australia for stamping out a new community outbreak very quickly.

Now all of Australia is looking good - very little community transmission.

Congratulations also to Taiwan and NZ for early hard responses and super community spirit, which means very little community transmission in either of those countries this year.

I'm very proud of the Australian community for pulling together over this - the majority of Australians have shown that they will sacrifice for the greater good, instead of petulantly complaining about their "loss of freedom" - and here's what a friend in Oregon, USA wrote about their situation today:

Quote from: undefinedYesterday there was a protest downtown held by a group of people who don't want their freedoms infringed on by the pandemic. The video footage was fascinating. One of the protesters was a little girl holding a sign that said, "We will NOT comply". She has a fan club of other 7 year olds who also hate bedtime and rules in general. Her unmasked mother was cheering her on. I listened to an interview with one of the grown up protesters. He appeared to be an educated, rational person with purely good intentions and yet, his justifications for objecting to current public safety measures made me think of Swiss Cheese. It's creamy, dreamy and sounds delicious, but it's got a few holes in it.

The pandemic seems to have created a collective delusion for some of us. The rest of us are just exhausted from the moral fatigue of deciding whether or not we want to risk our lives for a late night snack run to the supermarket. I really want Ben and Jerry's but I don't think I have the energy to wash my hands, put on a mask, drive to the store, deal with people, drive home, Lysol my shoes, remove my mask, wash my hands again, sanitize my pint and then worry for the next week that I might get sick. Is my sweet tooth worth dying for? Ugh. Maybe I should buy my own cow.

Collective delusion is actually a behavior phenomenon called Shared Psychosis. It happens when a group of people become enmeshed in each other's version of reality; we see it on psych units, nations in crisis, super fans of sports teams, cult victims and, to lesser degrees, families experiencing various hardships. It can also show up in individual relationships. We adopt beliefs that align with whatever we think will help us get our needs met with the least amount of discomfort, disruption or loss.

I love one of the responses:

Quote from: undefinedJust so you know, I've decided that red lights infringe on my God and Constitution assured freedom, and from now on, I will drive through red lights as it suits my desires. As for you, whoever you are at the other side of the street: Stay the hell out of my way if you don't want to get hit! Your health is not my concern. Now I'm off to get some ice cream – your fault for reminding me how much I want a quart of dulce de leche. I promise to share – aren't I a loving soul?

from https://borninprovidence.com/2020/11/22/for-give-us-our-freedom/

We've got loonies in Australia too - but not in the proportions the USA seems to have them, and have them in power positions where they can inflict so much damage.  I'm really pleased with the way the vast majority of the Australian community has been conducting itself during this pandemic.   :smth023
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on November 23, 2020, 14:33:31
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on November 24, 2020, 12:03:15
To answer your question, dsanchez: I don't know yet, it might indeed take until 2022 to vaccinate millions of people in Germany!!  :1f62e:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on November 24, 2020, 13:09:18
Well, Brett and I do have regular flu shots, tetanus boosters etc, and are generally in favour of vaccinating.  Initially if you'd asked me, I'd have been a little wary because of the history of the development of coronavirus vaccines - of which there had previously never been a successful one (which is why you can get annual flu shots, but not annual cold = coronavirus shots), and some of the ones they trialled had caused dangerous immune over-reactions that could lead to people drowning in their own fluids etc.  And when the race was on to find one, I thought the pressure to cut corners would be immense, and that's probably true.  However - the recent one they developed based on mRNA strikes me as being a really clever way to approach this particular beast, and based on what I remember of biochemistry and genetics, seems to me a safe way to go, so yes, I'm happy to get that one, when they eventually roll it out.   :smth023

The potential side-effects from that particular vaccine seem to me to be far less risky than the potential side-effects of actually getting infected with SARS-CoV-2 - not just the potential respiratory trauma, but also long COVID... (organ damage, chronic fatigue etc)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on November 25, 2020, 23:10:12
A nice, accessible summary of vaccine development to date, and answers to FAQs here:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020-11-24/do-coronavirus-vaccines-prevent-infection-or-disease/12905654

...and Dr Norman Swan on the subject this week:

https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/coronacast/is-the-oxford-vaccine-worse-than-the-other-ones/12916230
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on November 28, 2020, 02:16:52
I can't believe anyone with a brain (and an understanding of Covid) would be protesting against restrictions that help keep people safe. But alas it seems some notable names in the music industry are doing just that
It's rare for me to agree with something Roger says on Twitter, but in this case he is spot-on:
Twitter (https://twitter.com/RogerODonnellX/status/1332392026994864129?s=19)

On the plus side, the links within the twitter thread educated my about Clapton being racist....which I never heard before now. His on-stage rant to an audience makes me feel sick:
article (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insidehook.com/article/music/eric-clapton-racism/amp)

Here in Victoria Australia the restrictions worked: we now have zero active cases, and most importantly many lives have been saved. ...and it was a temporary measure that has now lifted in relation to the numbers going down.  It's strange seeing some people arguing against it. 

It reminds me of a psychology experiment I saw (on video) in my undergrad years. One at a time toddlers are at a table, and a lolly is placed in front of them. The adult says that if they don't eat the lolly now, but wait a few mins then they will be given 2 lollies (and usually the faces of the child lights up.. "2 lollies! That's better than 1!")  The adult then leaves the room...and the toddler is alone with the lolly
....are they able to resist immediate gratification in order for a better pay-off in the long run? 
Now compare that to the current world situation, where the pay-off is not 2 lollies , it is the wellbeing of ourselves and those close to us, and the most vulnerable in the community.  The pay-off is also knowing that if we all do what we can to try reduce the spread of Covid... then restrictions can lift sooner rather than later
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on November 28, 2020, 05:07:28
Quote from: word_on_a_wing on November 28, 2020, 02:16:52I can't believe anyone with a brain (and an understanding of Covid) would be protesting against restrictions that help keep people safe. But alas it seems some notable names in the music industry are doing just that
It's rare for me to agree with something Roger says on Twitter, but in this case he is spot-on:
Twitter (https://twitter.com/RogerODonnellX/status/1332392026994864129?s=19)

OMG, I knew Eric Clapton wasn't the brightest in the box, but Van Morrison???  Does he at least have the excuse of dementia?  I'd never have expected that from him.   :1f635:

Moron is indeed an apt summation of that attitude...


QuoteOn the plus side, the links within the twitter thread educated my about Clapton being racist....which I never heard before now. His on-stage rant to an audience makes me feel sick:
article (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insidehook.com/article/music/eric-clapton-racism/amp)

OMG!  :1f636:  I didn't know that, thanks for passing it on.  (Super article!)  Of course, I'm an immigrant and had the same kind of shiitake thrown at me for many years in Australia - "Go back where you came from!" and "Heil Hitler!" and "Do you like to gas Jews?" and other such gems, plus frequent physical assault when I was a teenager - but some of the prejudice and stupid remarks persisted right into adulthood; these days I just know how to fight back when that kind of blithering idiot opens their wide mouth displaying the vacuum where the brain should be - and I still get "But where are you really from?" and still point people to this famous library book:

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.0LrvhU358ZtzZKh0KupLPwHaHH%26pid%3DApi&f=1)

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fhousegoeshome.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F08%2Fwhere-did-i-come-from-05.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)

...hope I didn't make anyone blush, but it really is so effective to refer a bigot to this book.  :lol:  You could keep it in your pocket just to show to them when they ask that stupid question... :angel

...and don't you think the guy in the cartoon above looks a lot like Strax the Sontaran?

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.G2UgMBJRGyV70--ncNSX6wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1)


QuoteHere in Victoria Australia the restrictions worked: we now have zero active cases, and most importantly many lives have been saved. ...and it was a temporary measure that has now lifted in relation to the numbers going down.

Yes, congratulations to all of you in Victoria, and thanks again for your part in keeping everyone safe!   :smth023

I see you've now surpassed 28 days with zero recorded new cases in the community.  Well done!   :cool

And I don't get it either - it's a no-brainer to do it like this, instead of getting this ongoing trouble like in the US, UK etc.  I'm really pleased with how Australians on the whole have shown a sense of community spirit over this.   :smth023

Borders are opening, so if you feel like a trip to WA, we're happy to host you!   :)


PS:  Brett just said, "Aaaah!" after he read that article you linked to.  He reckons something fell into place for him - namely this song by Pink Floyd, released less than three years after Clapton's outburst.  Have a good listen to the second half of this song...

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on November 28, 2020, 11:46:57
Much as I like Roger, personally I think it's not good style in a "political discussion" to dismiss others simply as "morons" just because you disagree.

I haven't yet investigated much about the reasons why Clapton and Morrison (he's always been a "strange cat" as far as I know) do this.
https://variety.com/2020/music/global/eric-clapton-van-morrison-lockdown-single-1234841031/
Quote from: undefinedProceeds from "Stand and Deliver" will go to the Morrison's Lockdown Financial Hardship Fund, which helps musicians facing difficulties as a result of the coronavirus and resulting lockdown measures.

"There are many of us who support Van and his endeavors to save live music; he is an inspiration," Clapton said. "We must stand up and be counted because we need to find a way out of this mess. The alternative is not worth thinking about. Live music might never recover."

"Eric's recording is fantastic and will clearly resonate with the many who share our frustrations," said Morrison. "It is heart-breaking to see so many talented musicians lack any meaningful support from the government, but we want to reassure them that we are working hard every day to lobby for the return of live music, and to save our industry."

In general, I agree that many lockdown measures have to be questioned at least. Because, while it might help to "save people", it might "destroy" others (suicide rates might be higher for example). Not to mention the debt many people and nations amass now!
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on November 28, 2020, 12:17:51
Wow yes ... that scene from The Wall doesn't sound too far from where Clapton was heading.

Sorry to hear about the racism you experienced Sue. I had no idea you were German. I'm Scottish and received lots of teasing about that when I was a child. Back then there was very little diversity, almost all the kids were white, and usually with a surname like Jones or Brown... so being Scottish was unusual. I revisited the same school 25yrs later (as they have polling/voting stations from there) and It felt liberating to see the old buildings demolished. In its place were nice modern buildings ...I walked through a hallway where the students had painted handprints with their names written beside them, with a lot of culturally diverse names :)  I felt very happy to see this. A big positive sigh of relief for progressive change 🥰
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on November 28, 2020, 13:07:33
Quote from: Ulrich on November 28, 2020, 11:46:57Proceeds from "Stand and Deliver" will go to the Morrison's Lockdown Financial Hardship Fund, which helps musicians facing difficulties as a result of the coronavirus and resulting lockdown measures.

Surely they could have supported those facing financial hardship without at the same time proposing actions that would endanger lives and likely make it even harder to reduce and overcome Covid.
If I was to say donate to a worthy cause and I'll act recklessly (potentially killing people) and encourage others to act recklessly... would that make it right? 

Quote from: Ulrich on November 28, 2020, 11:46:57In general, I agree that many lockdown measures have to be questioned at least. Because, while it might help to "save people", it might "destroy" others (suicide rates might be higher for example). Not to mention the debt many people and nations amass now!

I don't think the solution to the financial hardship is to loosen restrictions so people can earn money again in ways that are likely to lead to increased Covid cases (which would prolong Covid impacting the economy, so is a short sighted proposition).
The alternative is that the governments give adequate financial support to those in industries where working remotely isn't an option, and where it is unsafe to work (for self and the community).  It can be a short-term measure, while alongside this doing everything possible to combat Covid.
Yes the debt of the government will increase, but over time this can mend.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on November 28, 2020, 14:11:02
Quote from: word_on_a_wing on November 28, 2020, 13:07:33Surely they could have supported those facing financial hardship without at the same time proposing actions that would endanger lives

When/where/how did they suggest that?
In Germany (for a while) it was possible to do seated concerts with distance (or open air in summer) with a limited number of people. I think our politicians fail to look for solutions (which in some cases were possible).
In cinemas there were no known cases of infection, yet they had to close.

Quote from: word_on_a_wing on November 28, 2020, 13:07:33The alternative is that the governments give adequate financial support to those in industries where working remotely isn't an option

Which is why it is said in that article:
Quote from: undefined... lack any meaningful support from the government...

What everybody seems to overlook, is the fact that after the crisis, the economy (again) will be forced to grow and grow, to pay all this off (the results of this seemingly endless growth we already know).  :'(
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on November 28, 2020, 16:03:15
Quote from: word_on_a_wing on November 28, 2020, 12:17:51Wow yes ... that scene from The Wall doesn't sound too far from where Clapton was heading.

Sorry to hear about the racism you experienced Sue. I had no idea you were German. I'm Scottish and received lots of teasing about that when I was a child. Back then there was very little diversity, almost all the kids were white, and usually with a surname like Jones or Brown... so being Scottish was unusual. I revisited the same school 25yrs later (as they have polling/voting stations from there) and It felt liberating to see the old buildings demolished. In its place were nice modern buildings ...I walked through a hallway where the students had painted handprints with their names written beside them, with a lot of culturally diverse names :)  I felt very happy to see this. A big positive sigh of relief for progressive change 🥰

Yes, it's good to see the improvements that have happened over the past few decades.  (They say that change happens one funeral at a time!  :evil:)  The younger generations in particular are far less inclined towards racism, misogyny and homophobia than the generation I'm from.

I'm surprised you got flak for being Scottish.  You were from the same island as the Anglos... but it's not really about geographical proximity or skin colour or accents, it's just about picking on any difference at all, for people like that.  If necessary, they'll go to war against the supporters of other soccer teams...  :1f635:

I'm part German, part Italian, and ironically, some of the people who were giving me a hard time and going on about Hitler when I was in middle school in the 80s were the children of Italian immigrants.  I asked them, "Have you heard of Mussolini?"  They hadn't, so I suggested they ask their parents about that.  Funnily, in Italy itself (70s, early 80s) I had always been made welcome by everyone around, even though I wasn't born there and only had a rudimentary level of Italian.

I'm sorry you got stupid comments for being Scottish.  Have you retained any of the accent?  I could eat Scottish accents...  :cool

Re the COVID-19, after observing what's gone on this year I do think that go hard, go early is the best way to deal with a pandemic.  Taiwan, NZ and Australia (and China, if you want an example of a non-island nation with that approach) all did that, and as a result, aren't going through the horror stories that are happening in the US and Europe, where the damage to the economies will end up being greater than it would have been with a go hard, go early suppression/elimination approach.  Western Australia largely avoided community transmission this year, and there's less impact on the economy because of it - we can live a semblance of a normal life - just no international travel, no interstate travel most of this year, following social distancing and hand hygiene advice etc, and most people here are back at work and have been for months - but obviously some businesses going over the cliff (hospitality, arts hard hit, with varying degrees of government support in response).  No crowds yet, and that's a good decision.

Some people were giving Daniel Andrews (Victorian premier) so much flak over locking down the second wave hard, but the results completely vindicate it.  The virus is now at such a low level that testing and tracing should be able to prevent a rapidly escalating outbreak next time around.  Had the much-maligned lockdown not happened, Victoria would look like the UK by now.  I for one am glad to live in a country that's been following the advice of its public health experts to a T instead of arguing about "freedom" or alternative realities...

@Ulrich, yes it's not useful to call people morons just because you disagree with them, but it's more than that here, isn't it?  ...sometimes people really are morons, e.g. conspiracy theorists, people who think the earth is flat, people who think COVID is a hoax, people who think they can affect the course of aeroplanes with their thoughts; people who malign others based on ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation etc;  basically people who are impermeable to verifiable facts...

It's very laudable for Morrison and Clapton and anyone else to do a fundraiser for the arts.  What I don't find laudable is associating yourself with the "anti-lockdown" brigade, when that section of the community is the refuge of some really obnoxious right-wingers (AKA white supremacy, misogyny, homophobia), I-don't-care-about-you-I-want-my-freedumb bleaters,  conspiracy theorists, anti-science pro-gun pro-toxic-God people, and other idiots like this (idiots as in, they fit the dictionary definition of that word).   What those people are doing is NOT engaging in reasonable, rational discourse about how to deal with the pandemic in an intelligent and compassionate way.

I know you don't agree with some of the ways the German government has approached lockdown - but 1) I'd never lump you with the "anti-lockdown" brigade because you care about reason and compassion, and 2) your government's approach, despite all its flaws, has resulted in one of the better results in Europe for pandemic control (and probably also economically?).  There's nothing wrong with reasoning out the pros and cons of various approaches and thinking about how it affects various subgroups in the community, and the various long-term effects of various strategies - but that's not what the "anti-lockdown" brigade is doing.  While we have a pandemic, lockdowns in some form or another are a necessary part of the response in order to prevent a huge body count and a significant aftermath of chronic illness - as well as the economic disaster of an uncontrolled outbreak.  The question is not, do we do any lockdowns or don't we, it's how do we best do lockdowns, and how can we get public behaviour, mass testing and contact tracing to the point that we can suppress this virus effectively with the least amount of necessary lockdown.

It looks like a vaccine is on the way, but that's going to take a while to roll out and in some ways I think life will never go back to "normal" - and in some ways that's actually a good thing, because our previous "normal" was sending people to the wall and destroying the biosphere rapidly.  We have to change.  Also, at the current levels of human overpopulation, predominances of cultures of entitlement, resource overconsumption, treating the planet as a toxic waste bin, and destruction of habitat, pandemics are going to be increasingly more likely, so we have to learn how to deal with them effectively, while hopefully addressing those characteristics and behaviours in us that make us the most toxic species on the planet.  (Or, we could take the view that Gaia is correcting our overpopulation and destructiveness because we're refusing as a species to take responsibility for that ourselves.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on November 29, 2020, 10:59:11
Quote from: SueC on November 28, 2020, 16:03:15it's not useful to call people morons just because you disagree with them, but it's more than that here, isn't it?  ...sometimes people really are morons, e.g. conspiracy theorists, people who think the earth is flat, people who think COVID is a hoax...

I tend to agree, but as far as I can tell, both Clapton and V. Morrison did not talk about conspiracies or such (so far)!
So I will give them the "benefit of doubt" and the "freedom of speech" until anyone proves the opposite.
(And mind you, I'm not a fan of both of them.)

Quote from: SueC on November 28, 2020, 16:03:15It's very laudable for Morrison and Clapton and anyone else to do a fundraiser for the arts.  What I don't find laudable is associating yourself with the "anti-lockdown" brigade...

Well, that is my question - did they really? In the article, there is one sentence from each of them. None of them suggests "anti-lockdown". The title of the article says "lockdown single". Anything else is "interpretation".

Quote from: SueC on November 28, 2020, 16:03:15There's nothing wrong with reasoning out the pros and cons of various approaches and thinking about how it affects various subgroups in the community, and the various long-term effects of various strategies

Absolutely, that is (or should be!) part of democracy (which had come to a halt here, because federal governments were churning out decrees without discussing them in parliament)!

In my opinion, they failed to come up with a real "strategy" or "long-term approach". All summer long they talked about fear of a 2nd wave (which wasn't there between June und Sept.), when it came they seemed "surprised" and acted confused...

Also, any politician who wants to be re-elected won't tell us the truth about the finances.  :unamused:

To get back to the topic of concerts, it is possible (in theory, but it's not going to be an option for small clubs or little promoters to "break even").

From a current interview with musician TV Smith:
QuoteUntil a vaccine does get rolled out there is really no guarantee when there are going to be gigs. I've got a couple of social distanced gigs coming up if there is no local lockdowns. I've done two already in Ipswich with everyone sitting in sixes at tables separated from each other and it was not bad, not a bad way to do it. At least it was a feeling of coming back to live shows and I did do all the songs from the new album over those two gigs. It's the best we can get, so we'll take the best we can get. We can't get everything we want.
http://www.pennyblackmusic.co.uk/MagSitePages/Article/9708/TV-Smith-InterviewTV-Smith-Interview
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on November 29, 2020, 14:33:41
Quote from: Ulrich on November 29, 2020, 10:59:11
Quote from: SueC on November 28, 2020, 16:03:15it's not useful to call people morons just because you disagree with them, but it's more than that here, isn't it?  ...sometimes people really are morons, e.g. conspiracy theorists, people who think the earth is flat, people who think COVID is a hoax...

I tend to agree, but as far as I can tell, both Clapton and V. Morrison did not talk about conspiracies or such (so far)!
So I will give them the "benefit of doubt" and the "freedom of speech" until anyone proves the opposite.

See, this is where I made the mistake of taking that stuff at face value, instead of checking out at least three different sources like you're supposed to, to get any chance of getting something straight... and it's a bit disconcerting to still find yourself doing that at times when you're nearly half a century old.  :'(

So if I've unjustly helped to malign Eric Clapton or Van Morrison as anti-lockdowners, I would like to offer an apology.

And this is just one reason it's good to bounce off other brains - because it helps with error checking.  Thank you, @Ulrich, for remembering that one needs to check these things out further before making pronouncements on them - I really didn't have enough evidence for that.

I think it was a kneejerk response to being fed up with the people in the world who think they're more important than the rest of the community.



Quote from: Ulrich on November 29, 2020, 10:59:11(And mind you, I'm not a fan of both of them.)

One of our favourite TV dramas is Edge of Darkness, for which Clapton did a track of the same name we both also like.  But generally, no, I never liked his lyrics very much, and the genre he plays in is a bit howly for my taste generally.  And I had no idea he had made that outburst in the 70s.  I hope he's learnt a bit since then.

I do like some of Van Morrison's stuff.  By the way, I remember one time in the 80s, a DJ on 96fm had just been to a gig and said he was disgusted because Van Morrison had played with his back to the audience and not said a word of acknowledgement to them the whole night.  Next time he was in that slot he explained he'd been rung up by a personal friend of Van Morrison's who told him he struggled with some social phobias etc and when he had a bad turn of it, he had to play with his back to the audience so he could play at all.  This is just what I remember and I obviously don't know if that explanation was true, but it does make you think that there can often potentially be another side to the story.


Quote from: Ulrich on November 29, 2020, 10:59:11
Quote from: SueC on November 28, 2020, 16:03:15It's very laudable for Morrison and Clapton and anyone else to do a fundraiser for the arts.  What I don't find laudable is associating yourself with the "anti-lockdown" brigade...

Well, that is my question - did they really? In the article, there is one sentence from each of them. None of them suggests "anti-lockdown". The title of the article says "lockdown single". Anything else is "interpretation".

Quite right - thank you!   :cool


Quote from: Ulrich on November 29, 2020, 10:59:11
Quote from: SueC on November 28, 2020, 16:03:15There's nothing wrong with reasoning out the pros and cons of various approaches and thinking about how it affects various subgroups in the community, and the various long-term effects of various strategies

Absolutely, that is (or should be!) part of democracy (which had come to a halt here, because federal governments were churning out decrees without discussing them in parliament)!

In my opinion, they failed to come up with a real "strategy" or "long-term approach". All summer long they talked about fear of a 2nd wave (which wasn't there between June und Sept.), when it came they seemed "surprised" and acted confused...

Also, any politician who wants to be re-elected won't tell us the truth about the finances.  :unamused:

I'm sorry there was apparently such dithering and lack of communication in your parliament - they absolutely should be discussing this stuff.  What was remarkable about Australia's response - it really surprised me - is how well both sides of politics here came together and worked together on this issue.  They even formed a special cabinet to keep discussing their responses as they went along, with the health experts on board too.  I just listened to some interviews with people who were inside Australia's pandemic response, and it's extraordinary given the prior enmity, how people were actually putting that aside and listening to each other to help serve the public - for once!!!
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on November 30, 2020, 09:54:38
Quote from: SueC on November 29, 2020, 14:33:41I'm sorry there was apparently such dithering and lack of communication in your parliament - they absolutely should be discussing this stuff.

Well, with our federal "structure" it is difficult enough, I guess. Still, in a crisis it is okay for a while if the government acts without parliament, but not over six months or more. (At the moment, they do "discuss" it, but the parliament does not get to "vote" over it.)

Right now, some of our federal states do act differently compared to the rest:

QuoteIm Gegensatz zum Rest der Republik werden in Schleswig-Holstein die Kontaktbeschränkungen nicht verschärft, Beautysalons, Massagestudios und Zoos öffnen wieder und an Weihnachten sollen Hotelübernachtungen erlaubt sein.

Bund und Länder hatten sich am vergangenen Mittwoch auf neue und erweiterte Maßnahmen zum Kampf gegen die Corona-Pandemie im Dezember geeinigt. Die Beschlüsse sehen auch die Möglichkeit vor, je nach Infektionsgeschehen die Maßnahmen zu variieren – und schon einen Tag später wurden die ersten Ausnahmeregelungen verkündet. In Schleswig-Holstein sind die Corona-Grenzwerte niedrig, die Sieben-Tages-Inzidenz liegt bei unter 50.
https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_89032638/schleswig-holstein-zoos-und-beauty-salons-oeffnen-wieder.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on December 01, 2020, 12:50:50
Quote from: Ulrich on November 29, 2020, 10:59:11
Quote from: SueC on November 28, 2020, 16:03:15It's very laudable for Morrison and Clapton and anyone else to do a fundraiser for the arts. What I don't find laudable is associating yourself with the "anti-lockdown" brigade...

Well, that is my question - did they really? In the article, there is one sentence from each of them. None of them suggests "anti-lockdown". The title of the article says "lockdown single". Anything else is "interpretation".




...sorry to keep this topic going but I haven't been here a few days.

A few months ago VM released 3 very clearly anti-lockdown tracks (I mean one was titled "No more lockdown" ...cant be more obvious than that). If you look at the lyrics of those 3 tracks it's very clear what he is saying. When he released these tracks he made a call for "fellow singers, musicians, writers, producers, promoters and others in the industry to fight with me on this. Come forward, stand up, fight the pseudo-science and speak up."

guardian article  (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/music/2020/sep/18/van-morrison-fascist-bullies-anti-lockdown-covid-songs)

Then Clapton comes out in support of VM's stance, and it is announced they are releasing a song together called Stand and Deliver.

....this is all very clear for me. Do you really debate that this is could be something other than anti-lockdown?
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on December 01, 2020, 13:39:45
Thank you for that extra link, @word_on_a_wing - that makes it very clear!  ...in which case, yes, it's so unhelpful to have such attitudes around, and I'm quite surprised that Van Morrison has turned out like this...

Brett says I should stop being surprised when people do or say idiotic things and just see it as the norm - and then I will only be pleasantly surprised if someone actually says or does something intelligent, instead of facing a continuous stream of disappointment...  😮
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on December 01, 2020, 13:49:46
Quote from: word_on_a_wing on December 01, 2020, 12:50:50A few months ago VM released 3 very clearly anti-lockdown tracks

I didn't know about that. (How should I? I'm not very interested in V. Morrison and even less in E. Clapton...)
Did VM at least suggest practicable other solutions? If not, that is of course stupid (but not quite "moronic" yet).

Anyway, I hope next time Roger posts about "morons", he delivers a little more background.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: word_on_a_wing on December 01, 2020, 13:55:32
...and I realise I could have given more background too, sorry about that Ulrich
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on December 01, 2020, 14:26:02
Now I'd like five examples each of things @Ulrich finds just stupid, versus things he finds moronic!  :angel

...pretty please with cherries on top...  🍒 🍒 🍒 🍒 🍒
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on December 01, 2020, 14:56:57
Nah, let's stay on topic here.

I'll try and explain it via the example of VM: if he has his opinion, that is okay. If he can give good reasons for his opinion, even better.
In this case: if he just says "no lockdown please" but doesn't have better suggestions, that's stupid.
If he says, "Covid is just a hoax" or similar conspiracies, that woulde be "moronic".
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on December 01, 2020, 15:03:48
"No more lockdown / No more government overreach / No more fascist bullies / Disturbing our peace ...

No more taking of our freedom / And our God-given rights / Pretending it's for our safety / When it's really to enslave
..."


...in my book, the highlighted parts of the lyrics qualify as moronic.  Van Morrison seems to be singing from the US far-right song-book...

Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on December 01, 2020, 16:15:23
Nice lyrics, they do qualify as "moronic" to me!  :persevere:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on December 01, 2020, 23:31:43
I wonder if Van Morrison wears a seatbelt, and if he stops at red traffic lights - or if he thinks those are examples of fascist bullying taking away his precious freedumb...

Let freedumb ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado!

Let freedumb ring from the curvaceous slopes of California!

But not only that; let freedumb ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia!

Let freedumb ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee!

Let freedumb ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let freedumb ring.


I hear a lot of ringing.  Poor Martin Luther King.  He little imagined what sorts of freedumb Americans would rise up to defend - while still embodying all sorts of injustice and inequality, more than 50 years after his death.  (And how morons all around the world would be inspired by their example - like Morrison, and Australia's own Bunnings Karen (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-27/leaders-respond-to-bunnings-karen-mask-video/12494382).)

:1f635:

But here's what I really wanted to put on this thread this morning:  Claire Moodie lives in Perth, Western Australia, but originally hails from Scotland.  She went back recently because one of her parents was dying, and was flabbergasted by the laxness of COVID-19 restrictions she encountered in Europe:  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-01/learning-from-the-scotland-second-wave-as-australia-hits-summer/12930228

Australians like us have been watching the European response to COVID-19 and have wondered:  Why can't a lot of people in the UK get COVID tests, symptomatic or not?  Why did some countries never impose hard borders on international travel - including between EU countries?  (Our regional travel restrictions here were an effective part of the virus control arsenal - and yet the whole of Europe seems to be treated like it's a single country, and with the population size there, that's so dangerous...)  Why can people go on holidays to other countries at a time when neither their country nor the holiday country has eliminated SARS-CoV-2 from community transmission?  Why is there no consistent compulsory quarantining of incoming people?  And how on earth does anyone think they can effectively suppress COVID-19 without doing those things?

I think we're very lucky in Australia that the epidemiologists essentially got to run the show here this year.  We look at Europe and the US with horror.

PS:  @Ulrich, thanks for this link:  http://www.pennyblackmusic.co.uk/MagSitePages/Article/9708/TV-Smith-InterviewTV-Smith-Interview
TV Smith interviews so well each time I read one of these, and this is again interesting and excellent.  That man has a good head on his shoulders and I doubt he will be spouting right-wing propaganda when he reaches age 75.  Use it or lose it, etc.  :cool
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on December 02, 2020, 09:49:20
Quote from: SueC on December 01, 2020, 23:31:43Australians like us have been watching the European response to COVID-19 and have wondered:  Why can't a lot of people in the UK get COVID tests, symptomatic or not?

Because testing itself requires organising and causes cost, which B.J. & co. won't do.

Quote from: SueC on December 01, 2020, 23:31:43Why did some countries never impose hard borders on international travel - including between EU countries?

Which countries exactly? As far as I know most borders were closed in spring. But you can't tell people about "being free to move around the EU" and then restrict them for more than a few months. It's okay to have "contingency measures" for a while, but not like "forever".

Plus, in Europe, we need the workers from other countries, because otherwise "nothing goes".

Also, in summer, lots of travelling was done without high infection numbers. Why?

Quote from: SueC on December 01, 2020, 23:31:43Why is there no consistent compulsory quarantining of incoming people?  And how on earth does anyone think they can effectively suppress COVID-19 without doing those things?

Why have some countries with strict measures have had high numbers anyway? (Spain, Italy...)

I read from a person ("medical expert") that the numbers we have had right now are fairly "normal" for a November. So we might do more lockdown or we might not...

Quote from: SueC on December 01, 2020, 23:31:43TV Smith interviews so well each time I read one of these, and this is again interesting and excellent.  That man has a good head on his shoulders and I doubt he will be spouting right-wing propaganda when he reaches age 75.

Never. TV has maintained his integrity ever since he started his first bands back in the 1970s.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on December 03, 2020, 09:48:14
Quote from: Ulrich on December 02, 2020, 09:49:20
Quote from: SueC on December 01, 2020, 23:31:43Australians like us have been watching the European response to COVID-19 and have wondered:  Why can't a lot of people in the UK get COVID tests, symptomatic or not?

Because testing itself requires organising and causes cost, which B.J. & co. won't do.

Yes, and how short-sighted of them.  Also I expect that, like the Resident Rump, they couldn't organise their way out of a paper bag if they tried...

Or maybe - and this is mean, I know, but maybe they're not too sorry at losing old-age pensioners as it would save on pensions and provision of aged care.  So long as it's not someone old that they personally know and like, I suppose...


Quote from: Ulrich on December 02, 2020, 09:49:20
Quote from: SueC on December 01, 2020, 23:31:43Why did some countries never impose hard borders on international travel - including between EU countries?

Which countries exactly? As far as I know most borders were closed in spring.

Here in Australia, we hear a lot about the UK (because of being an ex-colony and The Motherland and all that) and the US (because Australia generally aspires to many of the idiocies the US aspires to) - so they're in our faces all the time.  The US is not relevant to a discussion of Europe, of course, but I'm trying to give you a feel for media focus in Australia.

Anyway, we were just flabbergasted because the UK didn't close borders to international travel for many months after Australia had already done so, and I don't know if they ultimately ever did or not, but even in July there was no hard border, nor quarantining of incoming people (and we were quarantining everyone who was allowed past the hard border, mostly repatriating Australians).  I've randomly found an article from the time (but I was getting it via the ABC):  https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/07/uk-country-world-not-airport-health-checks-closing-border-12669125/

It's not the best article in the universe, but it does compare and contrast various approaches to borders.

And also, by imposing hard borders I don't just mean having them for a couple of months and then opening them up again before community transmission is very low in countries (/states) either side of the borders - and I was astonished that Germans and British etc were off holidaying in Spain etc again, in the middle of a pandemic.  That just should never have happened, in terms of pandemic control.  People could have holidayed in their own regions, as was the case in Australia.  After a couple of months without documented community transmission in our own state, we opened our farmstay again and were just as busy as pre-pandemic, this time not mostly with international travellers, but with locals who would normally have travelled overseas.  So while tourism across the board is reduced, small operators like us haven't really felt it.

Excepting via special permit and quarantine, we still don't have international travellers to Australia - not counting NZ, who have a reciprocal agreement with Australia so that visas aren't required for NZ citizens to visit Australia and vice versa.  At the height of the pandemic, borders with NZ were closed, just like many state borders were closed here - but recently we created a "travel bubble" with them, since NZ also successfully suppressed the virus with its hard lockdown initially, and then its hard lockdown around a cluster later - just as Melbourne has been able to, after experiencing a second wave, and is now 30+ days with no documented community transmission.

Effective contact tracing, and isolation of contacts of known cases, is nearly impossible if community transmission isn't low.


Quote from: Ulrich on December 02, 2020, 09:49:20But you can't tell people about "being free to move around the EU" and then restrict them for more than a few months. It's okay to have "contingency measures" for a while, but not like "forever".

Plus, in Europe, we need the workers from other countries, because otherwise "nothing goes".

This is where some people have a different view - contingency needs to be done until the thing is properly controlled.  All these arguments were trotted out by various people (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-02/mathias-cormann-claims-wa-border-closure-is-for-economic-reasons/12724748) in the business lobby when states in Australia made hard border closures - "You can't do that!  The world will end!"  ...but we could, and the majority of the public supported it, even when the corporate sector and the billionaires were screaming blue murder - billionaires like Clive Palmer, who didn't like not getting special treatment and not getting a permit to enter Western Australia, and who took a leaf out of the Resident Rump's book, and just tried to sue his way into getting his own way.  He went to the High Court of Australia to have the West Australian border closure declared unconstitutional  and lost (https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/high-court-to-rule-on-clive-palmers-wa-border-battle/news-story/0ed44ebd9ac60e06b1479dc48c567a85), and also tried to sue our state (i.e. the taxpayers here) for several billion dollars in damages (bullying posterior orifice that he is, and the hide of him, considering he owes his extreme wealth to favourable deals shovelling public resources into his pockets - he seems to have forgotten they're not his resources, but public property, at least in theory - so he grew fat on our resources, and then wanted to sue us little guys for damages to boot, not caring whom he impoverished...:evil:).

As for workers from abroad, those who were "in" at the time of border closure could choose to stay where they were.  As a result of border closures, we've had a deficit in seasonal workers from overseas (backpackers do a lot of fruit & vegetable picking and packing in Australia), but we've had to adjust to it - some people lost parts of their harvests as a result, but the greater common good, as well as a long-term view, were considered primary in the way the pandemic was dealt with here (and there has been good, but patchy, financial help from the government for people adversely affected).

And now, with very tiny amounts of community transmission remaining and no second waves current anywhere in Australia, life is about as normal as it's able to be in the middle of a pandemic - we still socially distance and do pandemic hygiene; outbreaks could happen anytime (via quarantine staff going into the community etc) and those behaviours help limit their spread before the leak is detected.  We still have restrictions on crowds and rules about seating etc, and are learning to live with it.  Many people obviously have lost their jobs and/or businesses, but last week, we technically came out of the recession that we were plunged into by COVID-19, and if we can keep the virus suppressed, we're going to have a reasonable recovery.

Western Australia's hard border is currently being removed, as well - but will be re-shut if an outbreak happens interstate, until that outbreak is back under control.


Quote from: Ulrich on December 02, 2020, 09:49:20Also, in summer, lots of travelling was done without high infection numbers. Why?

We prefer to follow the precautionary principle with travel whenever there's community transmission:  Is it totally necessary?  If not, don't do it.  If yes, quarantine.  (We = Australian epidemiologists advising this show, and many of our policy-makers, and also it's the personal opinion of both of us here.)

That's also the approach taken by NZ, Taiwan, and a number of other Asian countries who are doing really well at suppressing SARS-CoV-2.  The hard, precautionary approach does reap rewards because you don't have a constant backwards-forwards on policy and lockdown - you do it once and properly to effectively eliminate the thing from the wider community, and then you jump hard on any outbreaks that may come through quarantine workers etc to stop it re-establishing.

If the whole world had locked down for four weeks at the beginning, we'd not be dealing with this ongoing mess, and virus running out of control in large parts of the world... and that's the thing my Taiwanese friend could never understand.  Their country had already been through the first SARS and just immediately implemented their pandemic protocol from that, when SARS-CoV-2 hit, and therefore never even had a first wave - just a few clusters to jump on... and she says, "The information on what to do is already there, why are other countries so slow to adopt it?"


Quote from: Ulrich on December 02, 2020, 09:49:20
Quote from: SueC on December 01, 2020, 23:31:43Why is there no consistent compulsory quarantining of incoming people?  And how on earth does anyone think they can effectively suppress COVID-19 without doing those things?

Why have some countries with strict measures have had high numbers anyway? (Spain, Italy...)

Because the strict measures often came too late in the first place (which wasn't necessarily obvious because before testing capacity expanded people were running blind, but from the point of view of virus establishment...), and because things got slapdash again after lockdowns - plus a lot of lockdowns have ended way too early, before the point that was used in Victoria (second wave), NZ etc:  No documented community transmission for 28 days (= approx. two viral reproductive cycles), start with a clean slate, continue to test at high rates and jump hard on any new clusters.  In the US especially, they had a whole bunch of ineffectual lockdowns that were done too late and lifted when infections were reducing significantly, but not eliminated from the community.  Of course, to eliminate it from the community you have to have a lot of community buy-in, and you were never going to get that in America, because acting together for the greater good isn't their cultural style - it's more like, "Me first, and don't stop me doing what I want to do!"  Whereas NZ, many South-East Asian countries, and miraculously Australia decided to do serious teamwork as a community... with majority support.


Quote from: Ulrich on December 02, 2020, 09:49:20I read from a person ("medical expert") that the numbers we have had right now are fairly "normal" for a November. So we might do more lockdown or we might not...

Normal for what?  We've never had SARS-CoV-2 before...  One reason that the infection keeps soaring back is because the thresholds being allowed are too high, so it just becomes an endless pain and repeated cycles of more of the same.


Quote from: Ulrich on December 02, 2020, 09:49:20
Quote from: SueC on December 01, 2020, 23:31:43TV Smith interviews so well each time I read one of these, and this is again interesting and excellent.  That man has a good head on his shoulders and I doubt he will be spouting right-wing propaganda when he reaches age 75.

Never. TV has maintained his integrity ever since he started his first bands back in the 1970s.

That's great to see!  :cool  We need more people like that...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on December 03, 2020, 13:41:47
Quote from: SueC on December 03, 2020, 09:48:14Yes, and how short-sighted of them. 

Well, it's not easy. I would guess it's better to treat the sick instead of just testing the healthy. (It's all a matter of time and effort - and manpower requirements.)

Quote from: SueC on December 03, 2020, 09:48:14So while tourism across the board is reduced, small operators like us haven't really felt it.

German government and banks are just about to put millions into a travel agency (TUI) to "save" them. (See, that's how much the Germans travel...)

For your reassurance, I can tell you that travelling into Austria now requires a 10-day-quarantine (that's to avoid Germans a.o. to come ski-ing).

Quote from: SueC on December 03, 2020, 09:48:14Effective contact tracing, and isolation of contacts of known cases, is nearly impossible if community transmission isn't low.

Yeah, that's the trouble many countries have (incl. us and the UK and the US)!

Quote from: SueC on December 03, 2020, 09:48:14"You can't do that!  The world will end!"

And it might indeed. At least it looks to me like the rich will get richer and the poor stay poor (or just die, which means the end of their world).

Quote from: SueC on December 03, 2020, 09:48:14Many people obviously have lost their jobs and/or businesses, but last week, we technically came out of the recession that we were plunged into by COVID-19, and if we can keep the virus suppressed, we're going to have a reasonable recovery.

Meaning the economy will have to grow again, i.e. "back to the old rules", in favour of big companies and (mostly ) to the loss of "the small people".

Quote from: SueC on December 03, 2020, 09:48:14Normal for what?

I wouldn't know. "Normal" for this time of year I guess.
(A few years ago tens of thousands died of flu here and nobody asked for a lockdown or anything...)

Here's some current info for you (c/o the renowned RKI):

QuoteDie Gesundheitsämter seien zusehends erschöpft und schafften es nicht mehr zu ermitteln, wo sich Betroffene angesteckt haben. Es gebe mehr Ausbrüche in Alten- und Pflegeheimen, "in einigen Regionen stoßen Krankenhäuser an ihre Belastungsgrenzen", sagte Wieler. Die Zahl der schweren Verläufe und Todesfälle steige von Woche zu Woche, es sei mit vielen weiteren Fällen zu rechnen.

Trotz allem erkennt der RKI-Präsident aber einen Trend, der ihm Hoffnung macht und aus seiner Sicht "in die richtige Richtung geht": "In allen Altersgruppen außer den Hochaltrigen sinkt die Inzidenz", sagte Wieler auf Nachfrage unserer Redaktion. Er sehe eine leichte, wenn auch langsame Erholung.

Zugleich appellierte Wieler an die Menschen in Deutschland, die Krankheit ernst zu nehmen: "Die Reduktion der Kontakte ist der Schlüssel zum Erfolg." Er rief erneut eindringlich dazu auf, Regeln zu Abstand, Hygiene und Alltagsmasken "immer und überall" zu beherzigen.
https://www.gmx.net/magazine/news/coronavirus/rki-chef-lothar-wieler-trend-hoffnung-35320362
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on December 04, 2020, 10:59:49
Quote from: Ulrich on December 03, 2020, 13:41:47Well, it's not easy. I would guess it's better to treat the sick instead of just testing the healthy. (It's all a matter of time and effort - and manpower requirements.)

Like the US government, the UK government botched it up comprehensively. Both countries have a great deal of scientific expertise and resources, but have come out looking like Third World nations in this - particularly the US, which has less than 5% of the world population, but over 20% of COVID deaths currently. There was no reason that either of those countries should have performed at below-average level - but Boris Johnson and his cronies were umming and aahhing and ignoring scientific advice on this matter, instead of doing what a government is supposed to do - not to mention violating the belated public health measures they expected their citizens to adhere to (Dominic Cummings et al) - ditto the outgoing US president.

The UK has the same advantages as Taiwan, NZ and Australia in being an island, but didn't even shut down borders properly.

Time and effort become a huge issue if you delay your response and let an outbreak go out of control.  Early-responding countries chose to start combating the pandemic before they had a huge problem - I remember the impassioned letter written by an Italian citizen to citizens of the UK early this year saying, "Don't make the mistakes we made!" ...because it was really clear what was going to happen in the UK (and the US) with the lack of timely and effective official response.

And re treating the sick versus testing the healthy - it's not an either-or proposition, you have to do both.  Testing people without overt symptoms is important because asymptomatic carriers can spread the disease to others - that was pretty clear from early on in the piece (and you can't tell a shedding carrier from a "healthy person" - they look the same - so you have to test).  But if you look at the article (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-01/learning-from-the-scotland-second-wave-as-australia-hits-summer/12930228) Claire Moodie wrote after visiting the UK recently, she couldn't even get tested when she had a sore throat after international transit - and nobody asked her even to self-isolate.

The countries which have done well at suppressing this pandemic have done so with timely closing of borders, effective quarantine, social distancing and other protocols, timely lockdowns when necessary, massive population testing, effective contact tracing - and of course, with citizens who overwhelmingly supported taking action, instead of sabotaging efforts to deal with this.


Quote from: Ulrich on December 03, 2020, 13:41:47German government and banks are just about to put millions into a travel agency (TUI) to "save" them. (See, that's how much the Germans travel...)

Australians love to travel too, and do a lot of it.  The point is, during a pandemic it's not necessary to travel outside of your own country, or state, just to go on holidays - that's an easy concession to make, to holiday close to home for once - and it supports the local operators who would normally be taking people from further abroad.

Here in WA, once community transmission was under control, we were encouraged to discover our own backyards, and holiday in our own state.  We got a lot of people staying at our place who said, "Well, we've been overseas a dozen times but for some reason we never went down to the South Coast of WA before - and now we're glad we did, and we feel silly we've not done it before..."

When I was in London on a working holiday a long time ago, my three housemates were originally from Jersey, and none of them had been to any of the museums or art galleries in London even though they'd lived there for years.  They said it had never occurred to them to go!  It's funny how a lot of people ignore their own cities and hinterland... We don't, you don't, but so many people do!

Money is tighter since the pandemic obviously, but travelling close to home can be much more budget-friendly than flying somewhere else.



Quote from: Ulrich on December 03, 2020, 13:41:47
Quote from: SueC on December 03, 2020, 09:48:14"You can't do that!  The world will end!"

And it might indeed. At least it looks to me like the rich will get richer and the poor stay poor (or just die, which means the end of their world).

Quote from: SueC on December 03, 2020, 09:48:14Many people obviously have lost their jobs and/or businesses, but last week, we technically came out of the recession that we were plunged into by COVID-19, and if we can keep the virus suppressed, we're going to have a reasonable recovery.

Meaning the economy will have to grow again, i.e. "back to the old rules", in favour of big companies and (mostly ) to the loss of "the small people".

And this is the big one, isn't it.  It's terrible that the pandemic has been so hard on small business in particular, and has enriched corporations.  On the other hand, that was already the pattern before - corporations increasingly crowding out small business - and the pandemic has really brought that to public awareness, and I'm optimistic because many people aren't as apathetic about all of that as they were before.  People have done a lot of talking about stuff they would never have done if it wasn't for the pandemic, and a lot of networking and organising, and that's not just going to disappear - I think people have a better sense of being able to change things now, than before the pandemic.

I don't think things will ever go back to pre-pandemic "normal" in lots of ways, such as there will be increased flexibility about people working from home, and some return to proper full-time jobs in things like aged care instead of piecemeal work that's been the defining characteristic of the precariat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precariat) which you are probably part of or at least have significant features in common with, and I was part of when I was working professionally, because of the neoliberal trend for making all workers work contracts or casual (even in universities and schools, which used to be sources of secure employment) instead of offering solid employment.  ...the casualisation of aged care workers in Australia was identified as one of the main reasons for the severe COVID outbreaks in Australian aged care; ditto with quarantine workers, who were moonlighting several jobs at the same time and then accidentally spreading the virus to other workplaces.

Also, COVID really highlighted that casual workers were likely to go to work when feeling ill, because they have no official sick leave and often can't afford to stay home - and this was one of the reasons there was unnecessary spreading of disease in the community (and not just COVID).  So paid pandemic leave was introduced in Australia for casual workers, and they are looking at reversing the trend of casualisation - well, the right-wingers aren't, but the Greens and the Labor politicians are, and they happen to be in power in several states of Australia, and in the current position to change these things, with widespread public support.

Lots of stuff like that, which is putting a lot of things back on the table.

And then there's Black Lives Matter and other social justice movements, which really got a lot more support this year - and the much-belated resumption of taking anthropogenic climate change more seriously now it's got us by the proverbial short and curlies (as was long predicted), and - gasp - actually phasing out fossil fuels, which the people getting rich off it (and this includes many politicians) really don't want to do - but there's increasing grass roots movements for change, because many ordinary people aren't going to take this lying down anymore.

I guess the lesson our household learnt a long time ago is that in Australia at least, you can't expect politicians to create a just and fair society - you have to push for that yourself, including by how you choose to live and how you spend the money you have, and what you will and will not support, and how good a friend and fellow human you can be to other people etc etc.

And the public does have a huge case to answer too - not just the politicians.  I'll take the example of trashy magazines with paparazzi photographs and made-up stories about celebrities.  These would disappear tomorrow if the general public point blank refused to buy them, but instead, so many people will happily pay the wages of photographers who incessantly pursue people in the public eye, and of so-called journalists who make up trash about them.  That is a personal choice, and a personal choice which creates injustice in our society, and the public has total control over whether or not to support that.  This is a case of needing to sweep your own doorstep before complaining about the actions of others.

Ditto with the enrichment of corporations and billionaires at the expense of smaller players.  Yes, the unfair rules favouring the big end of town are a big problem, but:  If people stopped flocking to chain stores and trashy multinational department stores and McDonalds, these places couldn't survive, at least not at the behemoth scale they've reached.  If people didn't order from Amazon or other Internet giants, smaller retailers wouldn't go broke.  What people support with their dollars is what grows.  Of course, the "big players" are often cheaper, but ordinary people can make the decision that price isn't going to be the main factor behind their purchasing, and look at paying more in order to get a better quality product that's going to last longer, and one that's not been made by slave labour overseas, and one that supports local industry and employment, and good environmental standards etc.  They can support "slow food" and farmers' markets and small greengrocers and butchers etc etc etc.

It means going out of your way more, and usually spending a bit more on individual items, but despite all the crying poor a lot of average-income people do, when you look at their budgets, there's so much that could be done differently in order to spend that income in ways that would result in a more just and fair society for everyone - and I think everyone needs to seriously audit that at regular intervals, rather than just complaining about the ills of politicians.  (In other words:  Yes, dear people complaining, you're right to complain, but also do what you can in your own life, and take responsibility for your own choices, which also have such a huge effect on the kind of world we live in.)

We could get creative and make lists of can-do things that are good for our communities and the world!  :)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on December 04, 2020, 12:10:03
Quote from: SueC on December 04, 2020, 10:59:49And re treating the sick versus testing the healthy - it's not an either-or proposition, you have to do both.

Yes, but they don't always have the personnel to do both, at least not in unlimited numbers (also depending on how many tests are available). Which is why in Germany you only are supposed to get tested when you feel like you might have "symptoms".

Quote from: SueC on December 04, 2020, 10:59:49Australians love to travel too, and do a lot of it.  The point is, during a pandemic it's not necessary to travel outside of your own country, or state, just to go on holidays - that's an easy concession to make, to holiday close to home for once

Well I did exactly that, but it's not too "unusual" for me, as I didn't travel far these last few years anyway (however this year, even Frankonia seemed too far for me)!

Quote from: SueC on December 04, 2020, 10:59:49Money is tighter since the pandemic obviously, but travelling close to home can be much more budget-friendly than flying somewhere else.

Sadly not, due to cheap flights and all that. With the money I spent in Frankonia for hotel & food in just a few days, I could've flown to some island for a week or more...

Quote from: SueC on December 04, 2020, 10:59:49People have done a lot of talking about stuff they would never have done if it wasn't for the pandemic, and a lot of networking and organising, and that's not just going to disappear

I would hope so, but have doubts still. People talk a lot, but when it comes to actually doing something...

(It's like when they do a survey and ask people about "organic food" or something, the majority will say "yes, I'm willing to pay more for good food", but then when they go to the supermarket, they will choose the cheaper stuff.)

Quote from: SueC on December 04, 2020, 10:59:49Lots of stuff like that, which is putting a lot of things back on the table.

Thanks for the details about Australia.

In Germany, travelling does not seem to be the main problem right now (example Saxonia):

Quote from: undefinedDas ostdeutsche Bundesland weist am Freitag laut Daten des Robert-Koch-Instituts die mit weitem Abstand höchste Sieben-Tage-Inzidenz pro 100.000 Einwohnern auf: 276 – mehr als doppelt so viel wie der deutschlandweite Schnitt.

Der Marburger Bund übt derweil scharfe Kritik, sowohl an jenen Menschen im Freistaat, die sich nicht an die Schutzverordnung halten, als auch an den Behörden, die nicht entschieden handelten. Es sei "unverständlich", dass die "politisch Verantwortlichen in den Landkreisen so zögerlich konsequent die bestehenden Infektionsschutzregeln umsetzen und damit eine weitere Verschärfung der Maßnahmen provozieren", heißt es in einer Pressemitteilung von Donnerstag.

Aufgrund der hohen Fallzahlen sah sich Sachsens Ministerpräsident Michael Kretschmer (CDU) zum Handeln gezwungen: Im gesamten Freistaat – bis auf die drei großen Städte Dresden, Leipzig und Chemnitz, die ein anderes Infektionsgeschehen haben – gelte eine Ausgangsbeschränkung, sagte er am Mittwoch im ZDF-Morgenmagazin. Menschen dürften das Haus demnach nur aus wichtigen Gründen verlassen. Bereits am Dienstag waren die Maßnahmen für Landkreise mit einer Inzidenz höher als 200 verschärft worden.

Kretschmer zufolge befördert nachlässiges Verhalten die weitere Ausbreitung des Coronavirus trotz des geltenden Teil-Lockdowns im Freistaat. "Es liegt daran, dass wir zu viele Kontakte haben und zu viel Unachtsamkeit insgesamt", sagte er.
https://www.gmx.net/magazine/news/coronavirus/sachsen-pandemie-ausbreitet-35321606

Quote from: SueC on December 04, 2020, 10:59:49Ditto with the enrichment of corporations and billionaires at the expense of smaller players.  Yes, the unfair rules favouring the big end of town are a big problem, but:  If people stopped flocking to chain stores and trashy multinational department stores and McDonalds, these places couldn't survive, at least not at the behemoth scale they've reached.  If people didn't order from Amazon or other Internet giants, smaller retailers wouldn't go broke. 

That's part of the "problem" here, thanks to the pandemic and lockdowns and people being scared to go to a shop, amazon & co. are becoming even bigger as they were!

Which is why I support those who do question the endless "lockdown" and "stop & go" strategy, because it kills off small businesses.

In my humble opinion, it was "confused" (to say the least) to ask restaurants and cinemas to delevop "hygiene concepts" and then close them down with short notice!

And it goes on like this. Last week, they had a (video) conference, it was said that the Xmas holidays for schools should be longer, but in our federal state they can't really decide how and when...
(There's big elections coming next year, here in our federal state in spring and also the "parliament" in Berlin in autumn.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on December 07, 2020, 23:27:32
An Australian epidemiologist visits the US:

QuoteI should have realised when I transferred to a domestic flight in Los Angeles that I had just walked through the looking glass. Congestion at security screening explained the Covid clusters among airport security staff. On arrival in New York no one stopped me to take my temperature, or to register me, and there was no information about coronavirus exposure, let alone quarantine. The usual madness at ground transport prevailed as passengers arriving from all across the globe hailed taxis or Ubers, or shouted to waiting family – perfect conditions for spreading coronavirus.

Meanwhile, in Melbourne, millions of people were struggling under 11 weeks of lockdown, the price that society as a whole paid to suppress the virus, and suppress it they did: as I write no new locally transmitted cases have been recorded in more than a month. But over in America, it seemed to be a riff on "Live free or die", the actual state motto of New Hampshire. To me it looked more like live free and die. Continue congregating secretly or publicly in groups exceeding 10,000 for prayer, weddings and other celebrations? Check. Cover only your mouth, free your nose? Check. Social distancing? You gotta be kidding.

Once my week of hanging out with my mom was over, I prepared to leave the US just as the rate of positive coronavirus tests was skyrocketing there.

As I write the hospital systems of dozens of US states are staggering under the surge of new patients. Deaths have surpassed the numbers seen at the peak earlier this year, with worse to come after Thanksgiving family get-togethers. One pathetic legacy of President Donald Trump's dismantling of the public health reporting system is that the best publicly available, accurate and current coronavirus tracking system in the US can be found by anyone for free in the New York Times. I feel immensely sad that it's been left to the fourth estate to do this job. Without it Americans might not have known how rapidly this crisis is intensifying.

Flying back to Sydney on US election day was momentous. It also felt like whiplash. The Australian governments swung into action even before we stepped off the plane in Sydney. Once in the terminal it was full-on with precise coordination across jurisdictions and levels of government – immigration, biosecurity, state health authorities, police, army, air force. It embarrassed me that an air force officer was pushing my baggage trolley as he escorted me to my room. Of course this wasn't a courtesy: he was there to make sure that I was securely locked in my room without a key, open window or balcony for escape.

Both the US and Australia are responding to the same pandemic but you would hardly know it. In the US magical thinking and the elevation of individual freedom above the public good has squandered precious time. The number of deaths each day in the US quadrupled in just the four weeks after I landed in New York. Today it is up 30% in the past 14 days. Hospitals are reaching capacity and beyond. In a little more than two months my mother will have completed an entire year in self-quarantine, isolated from loved ones except for outdoor visits while the weather permitted. She'll probably turn 107 before both of us are vaccinated and can once again embrace. She has never met her first and only great-grandchild, born during the pandemic, and probably never will.

I studied with scholars and scientists of Lassa fever and other deadly diseases, I taught Yale's first course on global health, and I have worked on malaria policy myself. I have never doubted the justification for strict public health measures. But in my calls with my US friends and family they are still incredulous needless death and impoverishment could have been controlled with a strict and coordinated campaign of evidence-based public health measures, including quarantine.

Australia has shown that the response to a pandemic needs to be strict. Lives and a nation's economy hang in the balance. The response needs to be evidence-based. Precise. Coordinated. Thorough. Caring. Impartial. Transparent. Legally enacted and enforced. Strongly led and clearly communicated. Tough. Really tough. Because that's what it takes to control a pandemic.

from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/07/arriving-in-the-us-from-australia-during-covid-was-like-walking-through-the-looking-glass
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on December 11, 2020, 10:24:22
Currently politicians sugggest a lockdown between Xmas and January 10th in Germany. (I have a vague feeling it might come earlier, e.g. from Dec 19th...)

(Edit; it looks like it:)

QuoteNun macht sich auch Innenminister Horst Seehofer für härtere Corona-Maßnahmen stark. Laut Seehofer müssten diese aber unmittelbar umgesetzt werden, nicht erst nach Weihnachten. "Die einzige Chance, wieder Herr der Lage zu werden, ist ein Lockdown, der aber sofort erfolgen muss", sagt er dem "Spiegel".

"Warten wir bis Weihnachten, werden wir noch Monate mit den hohen Zahlen zu kämpfen haben", warnt der Innenminister weiter.

Am Sonntag wollen Bund und Länder über weitere Corona-Verschärfungen diskutieren. Mehrere Bundesländer kündigten bereits einen harten Lockdown nach Weihnachten an.
https://www.gmx.net/magazine/news/coronavirus/corona-live-ticker-seehofer-sofortigen-lockdown-35329938
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on December 15, 2020, 18:03:10
The town of Tuebingen (not very far from me) has its own way of dealing with the pandemic (and should be considered nationwide):

https://www.t-online.de/gesundheit/krankheiten-symptome/id_89125842/tuebingens-corona-konzept-wir-koennen-nicht-staendig-einen-massiven-lockdown-durchfuehren-.html

Quote from: undefinedDie Notärztin Lisa Federle hat in Tübingen eine viel beachtete Aktion initiiert. Hier spricht sie über wirkungsvolle Maßnahmen bis zum Start der Impfungen und die Herausforderungen zu Weihnachten.

Ihre neue Initiative ist die jetzige kostenlose Corona-Schnelltestaktion für Bürger mit 25.000 Tests um die Weihnachtszeit. "Mein Team und ich stehen an fünf Tagen in der Woche mit unserem Arztmobil in der Tübinger Innenstadt und testen Bürgerinnen und Bürger", sagt die ehrenamtliche Präsidentin des Deutschen Roten Kreuzes in Tübingen.

"Damit möchten wir es ermöglichen, dass sich Familien im kleinen Kreis treffen können. Und wir möchten verhindern, dass infizierte Personen unerkannt bleiben und andere anstecken." Für die Hilfsaktion ist das Deutsche Rote Kreuz finanziell in Vorleistung getreten, Federle ist für die Rückzahlung auf Spenden angewiesen.

Als am 15. Oktober die Schnelltests offiziell freigegeben wurden, begann die Pandemie-Beauftragte des Landkreises in Altenpflegeheimen Schnelltests zu verteilen und das Personal zu schulen. "Viele ältere Menschen sprachen mit mir über ihre Angst, an Weihnachten – möglicherweise ihr letztes Weihnachtsfest – alleine zu sein. Das hat mich sehr berührt."

Durch die kostenlose Corona-Schnelltestaktion hofft Federle, möglichst vielen Menschen ein Weihnachtsfest im engsten Kreis ihrer Lieben zu ermöglichen. "Isolation ist schlimm. Wir dürfen nicht zulassen, dass Menschen an Weihnachten alleine sind."

Um ältere Menschen vor Covid-19 zu schützen, setzt die Stadt Tübingen auf verschiedene Schutzmaßnahmen. So dürfen Menschen über 60 Jahre Taxis zum Preis von Busfahrkarten nutzen. Bürger über 65 Jahre bekommen kostenlos FFP2-Masken zur Verfügung gestellt. Die Zeit zwischen 9 und 11 Uhr soll besonders Senioren für ihren Einkauf zur Verfügung stehen.

"Dennoch wären wir um einen weiteren Lockdown nicht herumgekommen. Umso wichtiger ist es, dass wenigstens die Weihnachtstage in kleinstem Kreise gemeinsam verbracht werden können", so Federle. "Neunzig Prozent der alten Menschen leben zu Hause. Machen die Angehörigen einen Schnelltest und fällt dieser negativ aus, ist ein Besuch möglich – natürlich unter Einhaltung der AHA-Regeln."

Federle hofft, dass irgendwann genügend Corona-Schnelltests auf dem Markt sind, sodass sich jeder testen lassen kann.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on December 19, 2020, 09:57:00
That's what I'd been saying for months:
Quote from: undefinedDie deutsche Politik fährt nach eigener Aussage in der Pandemie "auf Sicht". Seit Monaten fährt sie schon so. Dabei wäre es dringend geboten, wenn man wüsste, wohin sie fährt. Dass Berlin bei Ausbruch der unbekannten Krankheit spontan einen umfassenden Lockdown anordnete, war legitim und für alle nachvollziehbar. Man wusste nicht genau, womit man es mit COVID-19 wirklich zu tun hatte.

Doch spätestens im Sommer, als man das Virus, die Verläufe, die Mortalitäten und Risikogruppen genau kannte, hätte eine Strategie entwickelt werden müssen, wie Deutschland langfristig zu neuer Normalität mit dem Virus finden kann. Doch die blieb aus.
https://www.gmx.net/magazine/news/coronavirus/fehler-deutschen-corona-politik-35369276

Similar in Austria, the country now goes into a 3rd lockdown...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on December 20, 2020, 01:35:18
We've been watching Sydney's community outbreak unfold here for a couple of days and we both think they're dawdling the lockdown and will end up with a second wave like Victoria because of this.  When NZ had just one new case of unknown origin, they locked down the whole country again immediately, and got on top of it quickly without having to spend months in lockdown.  South Australia also jumped quickly on its recent developing community outbreak and got it back under control that way.  NSW is much, much too slow - there will have been cases all over Sydney days ago that aren't discovered yet, and it's pointless just locking down the Northern Beaches if there's undiscovered spot fires elsewhere already.  You have to lock down immediately and hard if you want to avoid long periods of lockdown and huge second waves... and Sydney isn't doing this, and even if they start tomorrow the virus will have spread further because of the delay.

Our WA premier has done the right thing and immediately re-introduced a hard border with NSW - no people from that state entering until this is over, except with a special permit and two weeks of supervised hotel quarantine.

Speaking of, at present the source of the current outbreak remains a mystery, but it brings to mind that recently, an aircrew of a dozen people from South America, who had brought back repatriating Australians from that continent, breached self-isolation protocols for airline crews and instead of staying in their hotels, went out on the town in Sydney, to various venues.   :1f635:   As a result, NSW have tightened aircrew procedures and all aircrew will now be staying in hotel quarantine supervised by police.  (And this was so predictable - I wonder why they weren't doing this months ago.  :mad:)

Civil rights people harp on about the loss of personal freedom, but this is why we need police and army around quarantine facilities - because again and again, it's shown that there is a minority who can't be trusted with this and who are willing to put our whole community, and the chance to run our businesses, at risk just so they can go travelling and partying when they should be isolating.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on December 24, 2020, 23:28:56
QuoteGENEVA - The coronavirus pandemic has not deterred the Swiss from sending yodels echoing across their mountain valleys, but a concert attended by 600 people is believed to have made one canton a European virus hot spot.

At the late September yodeling event in the rural Schwyz canton, people in the audience were asked to maintain social distancing, but mask-wearing was not required.

"We can't do anything about what happened with this yodeling group. We found out nine days after the performances that several people from the group were infected," event organizer Beat Hegner told RTS public television.

Now the pandemic has spread through the region, with 1,238 cases compared with just 500 in mid-September.

On Wednesday alone, 94 people tested positive, twice as many as the day before.

The overloaded cantonal hospital has asked people to begin wearing masks and avoiding gatherings.

from https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/finger-pointed-swiss-yodeling-concert-covid-superspreader-event
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on January 04, 2021, 01:59:46
A really top article from last year, pre-Victoria's second wave:

QuoteThe virus could well be a stage in human history rather than a one-off crisis

BY: GUY RUNDLE

We need to stop pretending this virus is a once-in-a-lifetime event, writes Guy Rundle.

Governments start to talk about being able to lift some restrictions in the weeks ahead, and we all breathe a sigh of relief. Not merely for the possibility that work may start up again for some of those laid-off, that a wider range of shops might open, that at some point we might be able to sit in a cafe for 10 minutes — but also, in Australia, because we are approaching it from a place of less than a hundred deaths, a hospital system which never became overloaded, and a government which, though it has used this crisis for political advantage, has at least responded rationally to the threat.

I was in the US as the lockdowns began across the world, and as Donald Trump and Boris Johnson strutted across the stage, blowing their populist thought-bubbles, releasing the bats from right-wing wonks' belfries, and the feeling was alarming.

So I'm grateful that, for the moment, we have a rational government, whatever its political stripe, though I'm not going to gush over it, like some on the left have, because it's obvious that the crisis is also being used for a political-culture war.

But praising the basic rationality of the government (much of which, I have no doubt, is the product of Labor premiers in the national cabinet locking in Morrison, as the Attlee and the Labour members of Britain's wartime national government locked in Churchill during WWII) is simply a prelude to the question we need to ask: what is going to come out of this crisis that will lay solid foundations for a system ready for the next crisis?

The corporate and ideological right want to construct this as a once-in-a-century event, you know, like the once-in-a-century fires we're getting every five years, or the once-in-a-century drying up of eastern Australia's major river system that we're told to get used to.

The latest signups to this dingbat death-squad are Pru Goward and, of course, Elizabeth Farrelly (rule-proving exception to the [John] Quiggin principle that not all right wingers are death-cult capitalists, but all of the latter are from the right).

They're not only in denial about the dilemma we face in reviving full social life; they, and many others, are in denial about what this virus portends and what may come next.

After all, COVID-19 isn't anything new, as the virus' full name — SARS-CoV-2  — makes clear. Perhaps calling it SARS-COVID-19 would have been better to establish continuity with the SARS outbreak of 2003.

Since that time, we have had two flu outbreaks, an ebola outbreak, and another coronavirus MERS (Middle Eastern respiratory syndrome). The circulation of coronavirus roughly coincides with globalisation going to a new level in 2001, when China joined the WTO, and India abandoned the last vestiges of nationalist economic and social policy, and went for full neoliberalisation.

Globalisation, in the developing world, had been a preserve of a tiny elite, travelling, doing business, etc. Now it began to reach into the hinterland of these vast populations — and into an Africa emerged from Cold War dominance by client dictators. The world was now really on the move.

Remember how weird the idea of Chinese international students was? And then Chinese tourists? How Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, were suddenly a destination for corporate careerists in the way only Hong Kong had been? First-stage neoliberalism — the '80s and '90s — hadn't been a real globalisation at all. Now it was here.

Now it is here and part of the package is a virus, with an exponentially widened field of mutation and recombination to develop in.

It's a measure of how frightening this is that large sections of the elite are regressing to the mythical and childish act of finding concrete baddies to blame for the trashing of our lovely lives. "If only China had..." "If only the WHO had..."

Magical solutions are proposed: "Let's close down the wet markets!" people say, without bothering to find out what a wet market is. "China must change its animal eating culture" — ignoring that MERS, a far more lethal coronavirus, emerged from the Middle East, and was briefly called "camel flu" or "camel virus", because bats had transferred it to camels.

Bats, the epidemiologists tell us, are sources of such viruses because they have very strong immune systems, so viruses develop in a super-efficient manner to get around them. A nasty cold for a bat is lethal to us. This has presumably been occurring for centuries or longer, limited only by the non-mobility of very large sections of humanity.

Which means humanity has a dilemma for which there is no easy solution — especially not the bumper-sticker slogan "herd immunity" which the death-cult dingbats like to 'eave about.

Not only is there strong evidence that SARS-COVID-19 can reinfect those whom it has passed through once or more, there is the possibility of the global virus — what is really a singular organism, now omnipresent — developing until it hits on a new combination of effects.

The lethality of a virus is a byproduct of its mechanism of spread. Ebola uses only body fluids, so it turns the body into a rotating sprinkler of everything inside of them, until the sufferer dies, having soaked someone else in blood, vomit or shit along the way.

There's an obvious trade-off between infectiousness and lethality, as the common cold (rhinovirus) demonstrates. But what if coronavirus hits on a modified mechanism of spread — say, a form of coughing so unstoppable and so projective that sufferers' lungs break apart faster than now? What if such a disease had a 3%, 5% mortality rate and did not spare children?

At that point, it should be obvious that the modified form of everyday life we have now — even in lockdown, a lot of us probably circulate more than a lot of women and older people did in the 1950s and before — could not continue.

The distribution of food and other essentials would have to be managed by the state to minimise risk, health care would have to be brutally and cruelly triaged, and mobility would have to be subject, effectively, to military control.

As a society we need to have a plan for that, and to regard SARS-COVID-19 as a prelude and rehearsal to a viral event that would mark a categorical historical change in human life.

Should the state be unwilling to do this, out of the deep denial that still permeates a state devoted to the preservation of capitalism at all costs, then a coalition of public epidemiologists, economists, political scientists and disaster experts should form, create such a plan and make it public.

The only responsible act, for those who believe that the "human project" is worth continuing, is to make such a plan, with a clear-eyed view of nature's indifference to our desires.

The world is a beautiful place and worth fighting for, to quote Papa Hemingway, but the fight you face is never the one you thought it would be.

Yes, we should look to the possibility — and no more — of some very gradual, very limited and very reflexive opening up of the lockdowns. But only if such a measure does not serve as a host-body for the hubris of imagining that this viral event is an exceptional historical moment.

It may simply be that "the viral" is an inevitable stage of history for any mammalian species that develops a mobility beyond its pre-cultural evolved habitats. We need to recognise the potential epochal character: the moment when we lose our aeons-long status as this planet's apex predator, and must learn the caution and humility that guarantees the survival of all the rest of the animals.

Emailed to us by Crikey as a retrospective; original article here: https://www.crikey.com.au/2020/04/20/virus-stage-human-history/
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on January 27, 2021, 07:17:44
Here's an excellent Q-and-A session the Australian public just had with three top health experts, on COVID-19 and the new vaccines - lots of good information there, and they're not afraid to say "I don't know!"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-27/covid-19-vaccines-your-questions-answered/13094164


PS: Looks like Sydney ducked a second wave - and I'm glad I was wrong about that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on January 30, 2021, 13:40:11
https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_89378926/heinsberg-cdu-landrat-stephan-pusch-rechnet-mit-corona-politik-ab.html

Good comment there (German). We really need a new strategy with more testing and more tracing plus vaccination, otherwise we will only get lockdown after lockdown...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on February 01, 2021, 07:53:39
Well, after ten months without documented community transmission, Western Australia has had a leak from hotel quarantine via a security guard, and it's quite possibly the UK strain as well.  I'm very happy to be able to say that our state government is jumping on it, the same way NZ and QLD have jumped on their leaks:  80% of the state's population is in hard lockdown for the next 5 days, as a circuit breaker.  This is our best chance of containing this disease.  It's not what they did in Sydney just before Christmas and while they've thankfully not had a second wave there, and community transmission at the moment appears to be back under control, we can't know for sure because not everyone gets tested, and it's a bit worrying that they're still finding virus in sewage (which means it could still be around).

We're remote on the South Coast and at this stage not part of the lockdown zone, but I'd fully support it if it became necessary:  Only leaving home for essentials and exercise, no gatherings, no visitors, mandatory mask wherever you go in public.

Easy for us to say I suppose - we don't leave home except for essential reasons most of the time anyway, and right now the farmstay is shut any road because Brett is on holidays and we're just enjoying being here on our own.

Quarantine leakages are a worry.  They've mooted setting up special facilities away from population centres, with a live-in quarantine staff that themselves quarantines before going back into the wider community.

But it's great that there's a rapid sharp response here the moment a leak is discovered.  So glad to live in Australia, and particularly Western Australia, during this pandemic - I see mayhem in most Western countries overseas...

Here's medical communicator Norman Swan, on the question whether this is an overreaction:  https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/coronacast/is-wa-overreacting-by-locking-down-so-much/13107430
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on February 01, 2021, 09:47:57
Quote from: SueC on February 01, 2021, 07:53:39I'm very happy to be able to say that our state government is jumping on it, the same way NZ and QLD have jumped on their leaks:  80% of the state's population is in hard lockdown for the next 5 days, as a circuit breaker.  This is our best chance of containing this disease.

That's what we should have done as well (back in October/Nov.), instead we're ruining small businesses and politicians don't seem to care... (as usual they do care for the big ones, pumping millions into Lufthansa).

QuoteMiete und andere Fixkosten müssten weiterbezahlt werden, obwohl es keine Einnahmen gebe, sagte Esser weiter. "Wir leisten einen immensen Beitrag zur Pandemiebekämpfung, sind aber trotzdem von der Politik vergessen worden."
https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/friseure-aktion-101.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on February 02, 2021, 01:45:55
A summary of the strategies of the seven most successful nations at containing SARS-CoV-2 (Australia is currently at No.8).  This article is slightly out of date because it doesn't mention the quarantine leak in WA last week.  It's interesting though because it shows that you don't actually have to be an island to do this well!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-30/seven-countries-with-better-coronavirus-response-than-australia/13102988

PS:  I can't believe people are panic buying AGAIN in our second lockdown here...  Toilet paper, flour, milk, meat.  Didn't they learn from last time that a) the supply chains for food are fine - except if people suddenly want to buy ten times as much, and b) you're not going to eat or poop any more during community transmission?

Aaaaargh.   :mad:   👾   👺
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on February 05, 2021, 13:09:04
A report from the USA (I changed some names & made places unrecognisable, for the persons to remain anonymous):

QuoteTested positive on Jan 4, after symptoms beginning on Dec 27.  We didn't go anywhere or see anyone.  X, Y and I were all sick.  W. never had any symptoms.
 
We all tested negative on Jan 8.  And I have since tested negative again for work again on Jan 25.

I lost my sense of taste and smell completely for about 36 hours.  I ate a whole lemon and could feel the acidity on my tongue and in my mouth but couldn't taste it.
 
We had been doing the right thing; wearing masks in public, washing hands regularly, hand sanitizer, and generally just staying home. I had to test regularly for work, so that was the barometer that what we were doing was working.

Then, Y flew to ... .  She was calling us saying "the coronavirus might as well not exist in South Carolina" ie no one wore masks and u could still eat inside and do whatever u wanted. 

Next thing you know, we were sick... imagine that.
It sucks because we had done the right thing for many months, and this one slip up made it all for naught. 

Before I had it, if someone was sneezing and coughing near me in a store, I would drop everything and run out. Now I'm just like whatever...

I know it hits everyone differently. Thankfully in our family it was very mild.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on February 06, 2021, 02:12:20
Quote from: Ulrich on February 05, 2021, 13:09:04It sucks because we had done the right thing for many months, and this one slip up made it all for naught.

Here in Australia, where we're taking it much more seriously than people in the US, the person going exposing themselves on a trip to a place with community transmission would have been compulsorily quarantined (at their own expense) for two weeks on the way back into their home state, if they'd actually managed to get a travel permit to go out and back; and even in general, people now know to self-isolate and consider themselves potentially infectious in circumstances like that, so as not to expose family members.  (They don't all do it, but it's pretty much hammered home by public health here.)

That one slip can make it all for nothing (in terms of catching it yourself) is exactly the point with this virus - and this is exactly the same with HIV.  You can't say, "I used condoms for casual sex for ten years, and just one time I didn't and I got HIV, it's so unfair!" because fair or unfair has nothing to do with it, it's a virus and it does what it does, every time things get "leaky" with an infected person - and you can't tell who's infected by looking at a person.

And by the way, just so there's no misunderstandings, condoms aren't perfect protection from HIV either, just like masks aren't perfect protection from SARS-CoV-2.  It's part of an arsenal of approaches, in which testing, commonsense, honesty and vigilance are paramount, with either virus, and any other serious transmissible disease.

Here's the Swiss Cheese Model of risk management as applied to the pandemic:  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/health/coronavirus-swiss-cheese-infection-mackay.html

One other hugely important point to make is that from a community point of view, people being careful is never "all for nothing" - because if you've been extra careful and as a result even just delayed getting infected with SARS-CoV-2 for six months (etc, the longer the better and preferably you don't catch it at all), you're still helping to slow the spread of community transmission.  This reduces the overall number of people who end up getting ill, and also the number of people getting complications, long-term effects or losing their lives to this disease.  How is that "all for nothing"?


Quote from: Ulrich on February 05, 2021, 13:09:04Now I'm just like whatever...

I find this part especially sad.  Does their country not have a sense of community?  "I've had it, so why should I care now?"  Do they not understand that we're all interconnected and what one of us does affects us all?  That it's not just about our own selves, or even just about the people in our own circle?

We know that getting and recovering from SARS-CoV-2 doesn't necessarily stop us from getting it or another strain later on, or from transmitting the virus to other people.  It reduces the chances, but not enough to go around without taking any further precautions.  If you don't care about your own self, and you think it's always going to be just mild if you get it yourself (no guarantee of that either), at least think of other people with vulnerabilities who might like to live a little bit longer.

I honestly don't understand some cultures.  I frequently find American attitudes profoundly appalling.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on February 06, 2021, 10:28:20
Quote from: SueC on February 06, 2021, 02:12:20I find this part especially sad. 

You got him wrong there. The only thing he said was that he doesn't "panic" any more if anyone in a store close to him is sneezing or coughing. That is all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on February 06, 2021, 11:20:34
"Whatever" is a bit more than "no longer panicking" - it's the diametric opposite, and neither extremes are useful - not disproportionate panic where intelligent action is needed (all he needed to do was socially distance, wear a mask and practice good hygiene at the store, not panic and run bodily from the store) - and not "whatever" when we're still in the middle of a pandemic and have responsibility for ourselves and for our community.  Sadly, it's often the people who respond irrationally in the first place (things including panicking, panic buying, hoarding toilet paper, and other ways of going senselessly over the top instead of just following commonsense health protocol) who also go "under" as time goes on (don't care anymore / dismiss it from their minds etc).

"Whatever" has a very particular flavour in the English language, typified by its use by teenagers when they want to say, "Up yours!  I don't give a shiitake!"

I'd not be using "whatever" when talking about pandemic response.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on February 06, 2021, 12:18:05
Quote from: SueC on February 06, 2021, 11:20:34"Whatever" is a bit more than "no longer panicking"

Well he clearly said " I would drop everything and run out", which would seem extreme to me. Now he knows (as he mentions above) that mask/distance do help. Hence his wording, which could be better or worse (like "I don't give a toss").

I won't be sharing private reports any more, if one word becomes such a big problem.

What struck me in this, was how certain states within the U.S. seem to have no "rules" or "measurements" at all (as he describes what the person saw in South Carolina)!  :1f632:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on February 07, 2021, 09:45:22
Another report from the U.S., this time shared publicly by Tony Visconti (Bowie producer etc.):

QuoteThe Covid vaccine rollout in this country is disgusting.  Although I qualify right now it is impossible to get my first shot, and that's because the production is slow too.  I blame it on the former regime, who should have acted much earlier taking the pandemic more seriously.  Another four years of that regime would turn the USA into a third world country, with black market vaccines, militia in the streets and inflation.  Sorry, but I'm really upset.  I'll keep wearing a mask, avoid contact with other people, including my own family and get tested regularly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on February 07, 2021, 13:00:42
Is there's any ETA for when you guys will get the vaccine? It looks like it will be until autumn until I get my shot. Looks like another year wasted. Everything's closed, it's ghost town in Bratislava.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on February 07, 2021, 14:25:06
Quote from: dsanchez on February 07, 2021, 13:00:42It looks like it will be until autumn until I get my shot.

Could be for me too. Especially if they move on as slowly as they started...

On a side note: I received 2 snail mail letters yesterday; a lady from the UK (80+) reports that she had her 2 vaccinations (but can't do anything, because it's all closed)!

A mate (almost 60) who lives in Germany in a home for senior citizens & disabled has also received his vaccination!  :smth023

A friend from Scotland (60+) has posted on FB that he's been to the vaccination center.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on February 13, 2021, 10:04:21
QuoteSound and lighting technicians, guitar/keyboard/drum techs, truck drivers, tour accountants and road managers, caterers, and union workers at the venues are just some of the behind-the-scenes talent that have made good solid middle-class livings for doing their part in the live music music business, and they're dying on the vine because it has stopped.

Many artists think of their crews as family and have done all they can to help them during this crisis, but even an artist with deep pockets is suffering after a year without the lucrative revenue that comes from being on tour.

The venue landscape will undoubtedly look different when some normalcy returns to the business. Indie venues were already in trouble world-wide thanks to gentrification, increased insurance rates, and city zoning laws. Most smaller venues live month-to-month even during the best of times, so being closed for a year or more is a sure knock-out blow.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bobbyowsinski/2021/02/07/live-music-venues-are-hurting-but-so-are-the-crews-that-make-it-all-happen/
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on February 14, 2021, 00:05:57
Quote from: dsanchez on February 07, 2021, 13:00:42Is there's any ETA for when you guys will get the vaccine? It looks like it will be until autumn until I get my shot. Looks like another year wasted. Everything's closed, it's ghost town in Bratislava.

Here they are starting at the end of the month with medical and quarantine staff, elderly people and people in high-risk groups in the first round.  Brett will get his shot then because he works for a medical practice.  They may or may not offer it to family members of that staff then and if they do, I'll take them up on it.  The thing is though, Australia has barely any community transmission, and I don't know how long the post-vaccination immunity lasts - if it's anything like the flu shot, that's got a peak activity of around three months and then declines, and high-risk people for influenza then require re-immunisation if the flu season is extended (plus influenza mutates a lot and always produces new infectious strains so pretty soon, a flu vaccine becomes outdated and you need a new lot against the new strains - and some of the new strains of SARS-CoV-2, such as the South African one, aren't effectively/as effectively counteracted by current vaccines).

I mention it because unlike, say, a tetanus shot, it's not going to be a long-lasting immunity and therefore it would actually be best if everyone in the world was immunised in the same "window period" - but that's basically impossible, so instead it looks like we're going to have temporarily (and imperfectly) protected vaccinated people side-by-side with unvaccinated people who are going to be a continuous infection pool, and one in which new mutations of SARS-CoV-2 can evolve in the interim.

Australia hopes to have its population mostly vaccinated by mid-year - uptake won't be 100% - but will be a damn sight better than in America, where online pals of mine are seriously discussing treating themselves with animal wormer instead of getting the vaccine  :1f635: and these are normally intelligent people too; you'd expect it from fulltime idiots; the US is like another planet sometimes... "Oh, so-and-so got vaccinated and was sore and dizzy for three days!" but hey, compare the average adverse responses of people getting vaccinated to the average adverse responses of people with actual SARS-CoV-2 infection...

It's highly likely that we'll have to repeat vaccinate at intervals those people in the population who volunteer for the vaccine, just as is the case with flu shots - and I really hope that the SARS-CoV-2 vaccine will be less ephemeral than the flu vaccine, and get a greater uptake...
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on February 26, 2021, 14:04:30
Once again, German only, but...

QuoteEs müssen nicht erst die großen Dramen und tragischen Schicksale sein, die zeigen, wie sehr das Andauern der Corona-Krise zum sozialen Problem geworden ist. Psychologinnen und Psychiater beobachten bereits zunehmend Angst- und Essstörungen, Sozialverbände warnen verstärkt vor Vereinsamung unter Seniorinnen und Senioren, die zum Rasten und damit zum Rosten verdammt sind, und Krankenkassen mahnen längst, unter Berufstätigen steigen die Fallzahlen bei Depressionen.

Alle, die diese Kolumne relativ regelmäßig verfolgen, wissen, dass ich nicht gegen Corona-Maßnahmen bin. Im Gegenteil, gehöre ich doch selbst zur Risikogruppe. Es ist jedoch unverantwortlich, wie wir insbesondere mit Kindern und Jugendlichen in dieser Pandemiezeit umgehen. Kaum Konzepte, kaum Aufmerksamkeit, keine Schnelltests, kein Sport, keine Hobbys, keine gleichaltrigen Freundinnen und Freunde ... einfach nichts. Dieser Zustand wird bei sehr vielen jungen Menschen Wunden hinterlassen, die nicht so einfach zu heilen sind.

Wirtschaftlich vermag Deutschland den Lockdown noch lange durchhalten, gesellschaftlich nicht. Bei der künftigen Gestaltung der Corona-Maßnahmen müssen die gesundheitlichen Entwicklungen im Fokus bleiben: 1. die Todeszahlen, 2. die Entwicklungen in den Krankenhäusern, vor allem auf den Intensivstationen, 3. das Infektionsgeschehen. Je länger die Pandemie allerdings dauert, desto stärker treten soziale und psychische Schäden neben ihnen in Erscheinung und gewinnen an Relevanz. Wenn Bund und Länder nächste Woche zusammentreten, müssen sie das endlich berücksichtigen!
https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_89544226/corona-in-deutschland-die-krise-belastet-uns-als-alle-immer-mehr.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 10, 2021, 03:23:40

QuoteThe White House medical adviser Dr Anthony Fauci, has spoken about the challenge of containing more infectious variants of Covid-19 even as vaccines are rolled out, in an online conversation with Australia's chief medical officer, Prof Paul Kelly.

"Here is the challenge: are we going to chase each variant in an almost whack-a-mole way, or are we going to try and get a vaccine that has a good degree of protection against several strains and get the level of virus so low that we don't really have an outbreak?" he asked. "Both strategies are being pursued in the United States."

In the online discussion hosted by the US Center for Strategic and International Studies, Fauci said the US was working with Moderna to develop a vaccine specific to the variant identified in South Africa, and Pfizer was exploring whether a booster shot if its vaccine might offer additional protection against the variant first identified in the UK.

But the best thing countries could do was to contain large outbreaks, he said, because the more a virus circulates, the more opportunities there are for mutations to occur, eventually leading to more virulent variants.

"The best thing that we can do really is to get as much control over the existing replication and dynamics of the virus," he said. This was something the US had not managed to do in the same way as Australia, he said, because Australia's lockdowns were more stringent and effective. The US reopened after lockdowns while cases were still in the tens of thousands, which meant control of the virus was impossible.

"Just this past winter and late fall we were averaging an extraordinary 300,000 to 400,000 cases per day, and 3,000 to 4,000 deaths per day. That's just a completely different galaxy than what Australia was experiencing."

He said he was concerned that even as vaccines were rolled out in the US and new cases fell, the case numbers may plateau "at an unacceptably high level" – still high enough to give the virus more opportunity to mutate.

"Viruses don't mutate unless they replicate," he said. "And the more spread that you have in the community, the greatest chance you're going to have of the initiation and propagation of variants. And that's what we're seeing in the United States."

Kelly said Australia had recorded 140 cases of the variant first identified in the UK and 25 of the variant identified in South Africa – "but mostly they've remained in hotel quarantine".

...from https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/mar/10/dr-fauci-praises-australias-covid-lockdowns-viruses-dont-mutate-unless-they-replicate
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on March 22, 2021, 08:31:30
Speaking of social problems, @Ulrich:

QuoteWhat a lovely pandemic: Australia's 250 richest now own the equivalent of 25% GDP

Last year Australia's 250 richest people were worth a collective $377 billion. Today, they're worth $470 billion.

If you found 2020 a tough year, you're obviously not rich enough.

It's been a good pandemic for Australia's richest people, and The Weekend Australian (of all places) has now revealed just how good: the total wealth of the richest 250 Australians is up about 25%. That's a jump from $377 billion to $470 billion.

This fact was buried deep on page 82 of the paper's glossy magazine insert, The List. I'm sure you didn't expect the Murdoch media to go all Thomas Piketty with their rich list, but here we are.

Rich lists in Australia's media (the AFR has one too) are a 1980s hangover designed to draw in luxury advertisers in a celebration of wealth and the cult of the entrepreneur. Born in a gaudier time, they're now a sharp reminder of the policy slogan popularised by US Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: every billionaire is a policy failure.

More here: https://www.crikey.com.au/2021/03/22/australia-billionaires-rich-list/

It's especially bad in Australia and America - both relatively recent additions to the white European colonial land grab.  When you start with a few people with all the power and most of the wealth (and you wipe the indigenous people off the map pretending God gave you ownership of the land because you're so superior), you're setting up a society that continues down this track unless there's some kind of grass roots revolution.

Here's some interesting reader comments on this Crikey article:

QuoteThese are the Bastards who deny citizenship to a kid who was born here – because he was born with cerebral palsy AND MIGHT BE A BURDEN ON.... ON THE PUBLIC PURSE CONTINUALLY RORTED AND ROBBED FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE OBSCENELY RICH AND THEIR FLUNKIES POLITICIANS.

..that's a comment on the upcoming deportation from Australia of a kid born here with cerebral palsy to parents born overseas...and you guessed it, just like in the US, the party who does these disgusting things has members (our PM included) who make a song and dance about their evangelical Christianity-cum-prosperity-gospel...


QuoteYou will never get a wealth tax in Oz, the coalition driven by the Nats squattocracy would not countenance it and Labor won't want to alienate tradies who are becoming wealthy...
The Rich will continue to get richer, while ScoMo and Co spread the lie of "having a go to get a go"

QuoteWhen growth on assets is growing more than GDP it is a no-brainer that Australia would be far better off taxing wealth. Perhaps then some relief on tax for working Australians could then be introduced and actually build the economy. The benefits would also flow into the health system (in crises) and social welfare programs, which also flow into the economy. Any government that can't see that is not a government for the country, just a funding organisation for the rich and an enabler for the revolving door system to favour themselves.

QuoteSo they got a 25% hike in wealth thanks to Jobkeeper. Phase 2 will be a tax cut so they will barely pay tax on any income derived, if they are unlucky enough not to have their assets tucked away safely in the Caymans.

QuoteAnd #ScottyFromMarketing's response to this disgusting inequity is that he 'does not engage in the politics of envy'. One wonders when the 'politics of social and wealth equity' become relevant. Is it when the top 10% own 90% of the wealth?

On this, Piketty has proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the only effective way to reverse increasing inequity is an annual tax on wealth; ie not something half-arsed and avoidable like the dreaded death tax. Yet the electorate, almost all victims of increasing inequity are so easily convinced that even a death tax is terrifying. Never underestimate the stupidity of the electorate.

QuoteStuff like this is why I'm baffled that this gets dismissed from the political conversation as "the politics of envy" yet measures to crack down on the poor are a guaranteed vote winner. We are generating enough prosperity in a society that no-one would need to live in poverty, yet we choose this as a just society by the politicians we vote for and the policies they champion.

QuoteEvery voting Australian, around 12 million of us, allow this gross immoral unfairness to continue. These billionaires [and our elected government] know that as long as we are not hungry and the crumbs of wealth sent our way pacify us, there will not be a revolution. True democracy is 'a social condition of classlessness and equality'. I do not know how we obtain this equality, but it will require a fight.

QuoteWealth tax?
Who do you think you are?
Lenin?
The good news is the human race will soon be all but extinct, if not actually extinct.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on March 22, 2021, 12:07:34
Quote from: undefinedIf you found 2020 a tough year, you're obviously not rich enough.

Ah well, there's the problem, I'm obviously not...  :disappointed:
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on April 13, 2021, 18:58:52
Just registered to get my Astra Zeneca shot here in Slovakia, should get it within 2-4 weeks :)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on May 02, 2021, 08:49:09
An actual live performance upside during the pandemic:  In Western Australia, it's been a good 12 months for local artists - because music concerts have gone ahead with certain crowd density rules for most of that year, but national and international acts have been unable to come in due to border closures.

QuoteCOVID-19 has provided a silver lining for WA musicians and audiences as more local artists take the stage, filling the gaps left by a lack of national and international tours...

...There have been more opportunities for local players — whether in cover bands or playing originals — at the Indi Bar, Mojos, Freo Social, Rosemount, Clancy's, Rodney's, The Milk Bar, The Bird, The Aardvark or regional venues.

For Andrew Ryan, managing director of Mojos, it's a perfect moment for any new act with more than half an hour's worth of good songs.

"It's been an extremely good time to start a new band," Mr Ryan said.

"There's still no national or international acts, so it's been actually positive as a breeding ground [for talent].

"You might hear people talk about COVID babies, but there's a lot of COVID baby bands."

The next national or international success from WA could emerge out of the pandemic.

"Gyroscope, Jebediah, Tame Impala, Sleepy Jackson, Katy Steele, Stella Donnelly, [they] all started in the small rooms," Mr Ryan said.

Artists have welcomed the ability to say they've sold out a gig, even if audience numbers have been slashed due to restrictions.

from https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-24/wa-live-music-scene-boosted-during-covid-19-pandemic/13085590
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on June 10, 2021, 10:55:52
And now sadly, the down side at the moment...

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2021/jun/09/its-hard-to-have-hope-will-australias-music-industry-ever-truly-recover

QuoteAmid the stress and unknowability of the first year of the Covid-19 pandemic – which continues to wreak daily havoc and decimate arts industries around the world – there was a moment when some Australian musicians actually felt lucky.

"A lot of my friends overseas weren't getting any sort of stimulus or funding from [their] governments, and we were," recalls Harriette Pilbeam, who records as Hatchie. After months of lobbying, the state and federal governments had begun drip-feeding the industry with rescue packages, and some musicians found themselves eligible for fortnightly jobkeeper supplements (although many working behind the scenes were not).

"We were so grateful to be here – for [nearly] a year, we thought 'God, we're so lucky'," she says. "It felt like it would be silly [to complain] while everyone else was so much worse off."

Fast-forward to June 2021, and that moment has passed. Where Australian musicians may once have felt protected from the worst of the global crisis, they now feel left behind by a government that has botched the vaccine rollout, scrapped jobkeeper, and allowed sporting matches to continue while the music equivalents – stadium shows and festivals – have been cancelled repeatedly, often with no insurance.

Those who would ordinarily make their money from touring internationally or locally are faced with the worst of both worlds. While the US and Europe tentatively look forward to the return of live music later this year, some artists in Australia feel shut out from career-making global tours and festival slots. Meanwhile, the local touring circuit has been made unsustainable due to snap lockdowns, capacity reductions, and little ability to forward plan.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on June 14, 2021, 15:18:00
Seems never ending at this point:


More:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1402062059890786311.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on June 15, 2021, 09:12:15
At the moment it's looking good in Germany:

QuoteDie Gesundheitsämter in Deutschland haben dem Robert Koch-Institut (RKI) binnen eines Tages 652 Corona-Neuinfektionen gemeldet. Zum Vergleich: Vor einer Woche hatte der Wert bei 1204 Ansteckungen gelegen. Die Sieben-Tage-Inzidenz gab das RKI am Dienstagmorgen mit bundesweit 15,5 an (Vortag: 16,6).
(...)
Generell müsse man aber wachsam bleiben, mahnte Walger. Den Sommer sollte man nutzen, die Erfahrungen der dritten Infektionswelle zu analysieren. Der Experte verwies auf die sich in Großbritannien ausbreitende Delta-Variante des Virus. Dort sei der Fehler gemacht worden, möglichst früh vielen Menschen eine Erstimpfung zu geben und die Zweitimpfung weit rauszuschieben. Das habe eine Lücke im Impfschutz verursacht. Diesen Fehler habe man im Deutschland aber nicht gemacht.
https://www.morgenpost.de/vermischtes/article232473985/corona-news-deutschland-aktuell-rki-maskenpflicht-spahn-impfausweis.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on June 25, 2021, 14:52:10
We've been doing this over a year, have we learnt nothing?

This is the toilet paper alley in a Sydney supermarket after it was announced that four central areas were locking down for a week (Delta strain got out and has now infected dozens of people in Sydney).

(https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/590cf5fca8279776a7c325a7406cc0e4?impolicy=wcms_crop_resize&cropH=2688&cropW=4032&xPos=0&yPos=168&width=862&height=575)

Do people still expect to crap more during lockdown? Maybe do they normally wait till they're at work to save on the household budget?

Or are they getting stress-related IBS en masse?

Or is this what they're doing???

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.LnHpOv_8GKCT1gLvfcDdxQEBEs%26pid%3DApi&f=1)
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on June 29, 2021, 08:49:49
Something amusing reported from current Australian lockdowns - this sign on a door:

Dear Customers, We will be closed for the foreseeable future because Scott Morrison is a useless dickhead who only ordered enough vaccine to vaccinate 4% of the population 18 months into a pandemic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on July 14, 2021, 03:23:14
Finally have a date for my first vaccination - Australia's rollout has been atrocious; worst of the OECD countries thanks to government mismanagement (we've got the extreme-neoliberal-party in charge here, and if you ask me that's because there's a lot of stupidity, prejudice and greed in the population - so slogans like "Stop The Boats" and "No Carbon Tax" work, as do appeals to people's individual wealth, rather than things like egalitarianism, social justice, looking after the much-abused planet).

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2F1s%2F2021%2F06%2F28%2F22%2F44760641-9734695-Australia_s_sluggish_Covid_19_vaccine_program_was_slammed_on_Mon-a-3_1624914904622.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)

I'm getting the Pfizer mRNA vaccine, which I preferred from the outset to AZ (because I remembered my biochemistry and physiology courses - I reckoned the AZ delivery vehicle was always going to be more likely to cause problems that using straight mRNA) - next Tuesday, yay, and the second shot three weeks later. Brett has to wait until September for his first shot, even though he works in a medical setting - this is how bad the vaccine rollout has been here. The only reason I got in this "early" (months and months after other countries were vaccinating widely with Pfizer) is because I'm susceptible to aspiration pneumonia, and therefore a bad risk if I got infected with SARS-CoV-2. Even ordinary colds and flus are a problem for me because I've got a paralysed laryngeal nerve (http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=9418.0) that interferes with swallowing, particularly when asleep and ill (because my system can't deal with a lot of mucus while horizontal and unconscious).

Had my flu shot last month. Don't forget to get your flu shots as well, people!  :) I don't know about you, but this is the longest time I've ever gone without a cold or flu - haven't had anything like that since the pandemic started. While that's wonderful, and while I hope people are going to keep some of the behaviours that stop respiratory viruses from spreading after the pandemic as well, one down side to that is that many people who are now catching cold or flu tend to have worse symptoms than normal - because their bodies haven't dealt with respiratory infections in yonks. So influenzas are likely to hit people worse than usual if they get them - and influenza still kills a lot of people every year too (it's just we were used to that, and it wasn't a good thing to get used to...).

SARS-CoV-2 immunisation obviously offers huge protection against hospitalisation and death from acute cases - but here's another thing people often forget:

QuoteNo, we can't treat COVID-19 like the flu. We have to consider the lasting health problems it causes — Zoë Hyde (The Conversation): "Many people who have had COVID-19 and survived haven't returned to their previous state of health ... A Sydney study found one-third of people with mild-to-moderate COVID-19 were left with persistent symptoms lasting at least two months, including fatigue and shortness of breath. More than 10% had impaired lung function."

"The UK's Office for National Statistics has calculated about one in seven people who contract COVID-19 will experience persistent symptoms lasting at least 12 weeks. They estimate nearly one million people are currently living with long COVID in the UK, and 40% of them have been living with the condition for over one year."

from https://theconversation.com/no-we-cant-treat-covid-19-like-the-flu-we-have-to-consider-the-lasting-health-problems-it-causes-164072
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on July 16, 2021, 03:11:59
Something cute shared be our ABC this morning to help us cope with Australia's outbreak of the Delta strain. The two most populous states are in lockdown and ours has a hard border again after quickly eliminating Delta when it crossed from NSW two weeks ago. I'm really looking forward to my vaccination next week.

https://images.scribblelive.com/2021/7/16/bddac779-4fcd-4aed-8a4e-2463bb229d79.gif
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on August 05, 2021, 14:46:08
https://www.gmx.net/magazine/wissen/wissenschaft-technik/kampf-corona-alpakas-helfen-36056040

Quote from: undefinedGöttinger Forscher des Max-Planck-Instituts vermelden Vielversprechendes: Sie haben Mini-Antikörper entwickelt, die das Coronavirus und seine Varianten binden und neutralisieren.

Die Baupläne dafür haben Alpakas geliefert. Die Vorbereitungen für klinische Tests laufen bereits.

Last year I watched a movie, in which it was said: "Alpacas are the animal of the future".  :beaming-face
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on August 07, 2021, 09:23:27
Two thoughtful pieces from people who understand that "business as usual" is the Titanic.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/21/restoring-our-lives-to-normality-after-covid-is-not-the-solution-its-the-problem

https://www.sapiens.org/culture/gaia-hypothesis-covid-19/
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on October 12, 2021, 13:48:49
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/12/covid-response-one-of-uks-worst-ever-public-health-failures

QuoteBritain's early handling of the coronavirus pandemic was one of the worst public health failures in UK history, with ministers and scientists taking a "fatalistic" approach that exacerbated the death toll, a landmark inquiry has found.

"Groupthink", evidence of British exceptionalism and a deliberately "slow and gradualist" approach meant the UK fared "significantly worse" than other countries, according to the 151-page "Coronavirus: lessons learned to date" report led by two former Conservative ministers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: SueC on October 13, 2021, 11:22:09
From Crikey (https://www.crikey.com.au)'s Cam Wilson, via email news.

QuoteHow five guys and a Google Doc killed ivermectin

Last week was the nail in the coffin for the idea that COVID-19 deaths can be prevented using ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug lauded by the right, anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists.

The BBC reported that recent analysis shows none of the 26 major trials of the drug (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58170809) revealed promising results, and a third of those trials showed serious errors or evidence of fraud. The source of this analysis was a handful of guys spread across the globe — an epidemiologist, a medical researcher, a student, a data analyst and a chief science officer —  who have been using Google Docs, Dropbox and Twitter to tackle and expose bad science in their spare time.

The idea that anyone can debunk bullshit is cool. On the other hand, it feels a bit grim that the burden of overturning evidence for the biggest problem in the world right now fell to five guys and not, like, the World Health Organization. I spoke to two Aussie members of the group, Kyle Sheldrick and Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz, who explained to me how the world wide web changed everything about how science works now.

It used to be that you would submit something to a publication like Science and, after jumping through enough hoops, your research could be published. If you had doubts about a published study, you could respond by writing a letter to the publication. Months would pass before anything happens, if something happens.

When the internet killed the gatekeeper, it opened the floodgates. Publishing your research became as easy as uploading it the internet — the eggheads call these "pre-print publications"— without the need for something as time consuming as a "peer review".

Since the beginning of the pandemic, dodgy preprint studies have been going viral online (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemlee/shoddy-coronavirus-studies-are-going-viral-and-stoking-panic) as people search for answers. (Peer-reviewed work still happens and is important to legit journals, but it suffers from being too slow.)

People — like misinformation super-spreader Craig Kelly — can then shop around for a legit-looking PDF that "proves" what they already believed.

"There's hundreds of papers coming out a day. If you were to publish fake ivermectin research, the chance of ever being found out is quite low," Kyle told me.

The flipside is that a ragtag team of medical research mercenaries can shape scientific knowledge using a shared spreadsheet of studies to coordinate their checks on study methodology, and some nifty statistical analysis based on publicly available results and data requested from research authors.

Once they've done this work, they publish on Twitter and on their personal blogs. They engage with people on social media to explain what they did and review other people's work. All this took was a bit of knowhow and curiosity on their parts.

Their reward? "I get no financial incentives, there are no career incentives. You get paid in hate mail and death threats even if you're successful getting fraudulent research looked at," Gideon said.

Whether this model of "a good guy with a spreadsheet is the solution to a bad guy with the spreadsheet" trumps our pre-internet scientific publishing model is moot — the internet genie is well and truly out of the bottle — and also a false choice. That's because gate-kept science had its problems with fraud too! It's just that the traditional methods of gatekeeping aren't screening for fraud like Kyle and Gideon's crew are.

This is a major problem with scientific rigour and the internet. How are we supposed to know what's real? What chance does a mere mortal have to understand medical research when the world's top experts haven't been spotting fraud? Even with Kyle and Gideon's analysis, I'm just taking their critique in good faith. They are transparent, but all the details are gobbledygook to me.

And in case you didn't realise, this same problem is happening in just about every other domain of life too.

But their story gives me hope. The world could have ignored Gideon and Kyle's analysis. Instead, the world's most read publishers are reporting that the reputation of ivermectin as a COVID-19 treatment is in tatters because of their work.

Sure, the internet is the problem here. But it's offering us solutions too.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on October 13, 2021, 13:09:15
QuoteDrugmaker Merck asked U.S. regulators Monday to authorize its pill against COVID-19 in what would add an entirely new and easy-to-use weapon to the world's arsenal against the pandemic.

If cleared by the Food and Drug Administration — a decision that could come in a matter of weeks — it would be the first pill shown to treat COVID-19. All other FDA-backed treatments against the disease require an IV or injection.
https://www.npr.org/2021/10/11/1045005513/merck-asks-fda-to-authorize-promising-anti-covid-pill?t=1634123312372
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on January 26, 2022, 11:36:23
Just tested positive for covid, probably Omicron, I have no symptoms whatsoever. Will update!
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on January 26, 2022, 12:05:11
Sorry to hear, hope you will get through without too much trouble!  :cool

According to science, sooner or later, we will probably all catch Omicron (German version only):
QuoteAber die Prognose ist: Omikron wird durchrauschen, es findet also derzeit eine Durchseuchung statt.

Ja, über kurz oder lang wird jeder mit dem Virus in Kontakt gekommen sein. Entweder geimpft oder ohne Schutz infiziert.
https://www.t-online.de/gesundheit/krankheiten-symptome/id_91523482/corona-pandemie-soll-in-einem-jahr-zu-ende-sein-prognostiziert-ein-experte.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on January 26, 2022, 21:17:44
Quote from: Ulrich on January 26, 2022, 12:05:11through
Quote from: Ulrich on January 26, 2022, 12:05:11Sorry to hear, hope you will get through without too much trouble!  (http://curefans.com/Smileys/twitter/1f60e.png)

I found out by accident because I needed to travel to Austria (so PCR needed). So I tested and positive! Otherwise I would never find out.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: dsanchez on January 29, 2022, 13:13:32
4th day since positive test, no symptoms at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus: More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover
Post by: Ulrich on February 03, 2022, 09:46:57
QuoteVictoria's events industry is calling for immediate financial aid after a survey of its members by the Save Victorian Events association found that their income had dropped by 81 per cent between April 2020 and August 2021 (when compared to a normal pre-COVID year) and by 66 per cent between September and December 2021.

Respondents estimated income would decline by 68 per cent between January and March 2022, and 58 per cent between April and June this year.

The association is calling for the reintroduction for the jointly federal and state funded Business Costs Assistance Program (Business CAP) grants to give immediate support.

"This is because we know these grants work and this can be done at the push of a button," said co-founder Simon Thewlis.

"Quite specifically, this is to help them to continue to pay staff, rent, equipment leases, etc... until many events can really start to happen again.
https://mixdownmag.com.au/news/events-sector-assistance-plea-amid-income-drop-all-the-biggest-industry-headlines/