about 'adonais' and 'treasure'

Started by japanesebaby, February 07, 2007, 03:57:38

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japanesebaby

no need to apologize. besides, it looks like i might have been an a bit humorless mood myself last time too, judging from my tone. hmm, so maybe i could apologize as well.
and the reason i asked whether you meant me or robert was simply because you said "he's passionate" - and i'm a "she". ;)

so maybe i'll break my own word and say something more... 
because i do agree, i've always enjoyed the effect that this type of conversation/exchange of thoughts can have to one's immediate listening experience. how one's long since settled (too long since?) mindset, sometimes even conviction-like certainty about this or that piece of music can change and take a fresh turn - regardless of whether the change is something that will stay with you or something soon to pass, whether it's uplifting or leading towards the other direction... but anyway.

and about the songs: yes i think you're absolutely right, about how something that first might look like two similar examples of appr. same type of string arrangement actually do create pretty much opposite kind of impressions. the other one works nicely uplifting the song, the other one really doesn't. maybe 'treasure' simply aims to be too lavish, too orchestrated. i don't know for sure but maybe it would have worked better if it were simpler and even a bit rougher somehow, more down-to-earth what comes to the sound. or maybe not, i'm not sure what might have saved it, if anything. anyway now it's simply drowning into it's own backing tape... which is sort of a shame. and 'adonais' for sure isn't drowning for a single second: instead it's gliding the same waves with so much style and self-confidence. ;)

(and oh dear, we really haven't actually said much anything about 'adonais' yet, now haven't we? ;) )
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

splitmilk34

Well now that I know you're a "she" I will certainly not refer to you as a "he"... I don't know what lead me to believe you were a male anyway... oh well.

Onto "Adonais" though:  I think this song is fantastic because of the propulsive beat that continually drives the song, the effective us of slap-echo on Robert's vocal and the repeated staccato string arrangement during the verse which unfolds into a lush orchestral arrangement during the chorus.  I believe that the skeletal structure of this song is so good(ie. the bare bones arrangement of drums/bass/vocals) that everything else that was layered into the song is simply a bonus - icing on the cake, if you will.  "Adonais" works much the same way "Disintegration" or "Siamese Twins" or "This Twilight Garden" do... if you were to simply play through the song on acoustic guitar (as I have) it would still be moving and powerful.  Try doing the same for "Treasure" and it won't work.  It's really an excellent (though not completely fair) way to judge a song.  Does it stand out on it's own?  The answer, for "Adonais", is yes!
"... sleeping less every night"

dsanchez

Not exactly a comment about "adonais" and "treasure", but here's a highly recomended page (which Curefans.com just exchanged links, by the way) about a detailed analysis of many Cure songs. Worth to take a look:

http://www.oneimaginaryblog.com/

2023.11.22 Lima
2023.11.27 Montevideo

Nicholas

I think this is a great topic, and not boring at all! 

It's like Robert's the Royal Shakespeare Company interpreting a play rather than some hack remaking The Haunting.  At least to me.

And one reason for the percieved lightness of Treasure may be that Rossetti's original comes off as kind of sweet and simple compared to Shelley's, not lesser in any way, but certainly set in a different emotion and tone.  Treasure, is a simpler sparse song, I even feel the orchestration, toy drums and guitar solo as zenlike.  The lyrics are more of a mantra, repetition, taking one moment and reducing it to a talisman that one repeats to oneself over and over again.

No explanation as to why the source material has become more and more 'classic' instead of modern, just the way his tastes are running--noticed this first in the liner notes for Wish.

revolt

I have to agree that 'Treasure' has the kind of lazy lyrics that Robert only too frequently has adopted after 'Disintegration'. Literature-inspired or not, it's simply too ordinary.

'Adonais', on the other hand, is much more laboured and thought-provoking. This uses some words from the Shelley poem but works them creatively into a different thing. Well done!


TheCureno1

what's the name of the poem that treasure is based on?

Ulrich

It's all there in posting #1:
Quotechristina rossetti (1830-1894): 'remember'

I kinda liked "treasure", especially before knowing about the poetry it was inspired by.
Gotta admit I never knew much about the lyrics of "adonais".  :oops:

As with many Cure songs, what I like is not the "poetic" lyrics, it's a "feeling" that comes across, it's the mixture of music & lyrics which create this feeling for me.
The holy city breathed like a dying man...

japanesebaby

Quote from: Ulrich on May 21, 2012, 11:47:52
It's all there in posting #1:
Quotechristina rossetti (1830-1894): 'remember'

indeed.

Quote from: Ulrich on May 21, 2012, 11:47:52
I kinda liked "treasure", especially before knowing about the poetry it was inspired by.

As with many Cure songs, what I like is not the "poetic" lyrics, it's a "feeling" that comes across, it's the mixture of music & lyrics which create this feeling for me.

i knew the poem before i knew the song and i always liked the poem. nowadays i sort of feel that the 'treasure' is a bit pale rendition of it, a bit simple. i suppose i do prefer the poem.
then again, music and poetry do not work (and why should they) exactly the same way, and as you said, in the case of the song it's the combined feeling of the lyrics and music that delivers. so it's maybe not a fair comparison, both stand their on ground.

reading rossetti, it seems to me she must have been somewhat obsessed with her own death (she had suffered from depression since her early youth and later got graves disease and cancer, being quite severely ill in the end). there's similar detaching oneself from/giving up on the world imagery in her other poems too (for instance http://www.poetry-archive.com/r/aloof.html, http://www.poetry-archive.com/r/a_portrait.html, http://www.poetry-archive.com/r/rest.html) so 'remember' is not a one-off. in these poems she often writes in third person ('she') and it's quite clear she's talking about herself.

Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine

charlotte89

wow i didn't know about Rosetti's poem!!
after reading this post i tried somenthing aboth her works...
Treasure is one of my fav Cure's song!!
thanks guys!;)

Ikissedyoursmile

Im telling you right now Rossetti had nothingtodo with the song treasure....nothing. :roll:

Ulrich

Quote from: Ikissedyoursmile on June 23, 2013, 05:47:46
Im telling you right now Rossetti had nothing to do with the song treasure....nothing. :roll:

That's because she died in 1894! Of course she had nothing to do with "Treasure". Still, there is a possibility that Robert Smith was "inspired" by her poem when he wrote the lyrics to "Treasure"...
The holy city breathed like a dying man...

Ikissedyoursmile

Quote from: Ulrich on June 23, 2013, 11:26:13
Quote from: Ikissedyoursmile on June 23, 2013, 05:47:46
Im telling you right now Rossetti had nothing to do with the song treasure....nothing. :roll:

That's because she died in 1894! Of course she had nothing to do with "Treasure". Still, there is a possibility that Robert Smith was "inspired" by her poem when he wrote the lyrics to "Treasure"...
Oops,lol! I meant he wasnt inspired by that poem. Sorry it was late when i wrote . But i would bet my life on it. Remember, Robert has ALOT of secrets.

Ulrich

Quote from: Ikissedyoursmile on June 24, 2013, 05:00:36
Oops,lol! I meant he wasnt inspired by that poem. Sorry it was late when i wrote . But i would bet my life on it.

Any reasons why? Or just because you say so?
(I mean, the similarities are obvious when reading these posts here. Robert has had inspiration from many books and poems, why not this one?)
The holy city breathed like a dying man...

MeltingMan

Quote from: japanesebaby on February 07, 2007, 23:29:10
but it's actually a lot different with these re-workings of pieces of poetry - and it's also much more difficult somehow. it's much more delicate and i think the danger of failing is much more real. AND i think he makes it even still a bit more difficult for himself, just by choosing to operate with the very same exact images, the very same words, the same sentences, expressions... so this time, he is really playing with the danger...!!
and i also think it's got to be a very conscious choice, really.
I don't think so apart from the conscious choice he made.Adonais is one of my favorite B-Sides
and,thanks to the topic,you can clearly recognize the most powerful words or lines.There's no trace
of plagiarism because Robert took them and formed something new.Both authors are dead for more
than hundred years and,apart from the copyright,they hadn't the modes of expression Robert or The Cure
still have.Just my opinion.I'm not an expert. ;)
En cette nation [Russie] qui n'a pas eu de théoriciens et de démagogues,
les pires ferments de destruction ont apparu. (J. Péladan)