This question was recently brought up on Twitter, so here it is:
Should The Cure remove "Killing An Arab" from their live set list (because the controversy it can generate)?
Is it a personal statement though? The whole issue surrounding this song was its misappropriated use and the fact that all the criticism that followed amounted to censorship. You have said you don't believe in censorship but by not singing it, that would be censorship. You also say by not singing it, it would promote peace, but what peace are you referring to and is it directed towards a specific incident you relate it to?
As for fans expressing pent up emotion- in one of the most controlled environments that we put ourselves in where people are paid to look after fans and are usually trained in conflict management. What's wrong with anger? Anger does not mean hatred. Go back to the literal meaning embedded in the book- indifference.
If you go down this censorship trail, we risk a mass ban on hundreds of music- Rage against the machine, Slipknot, Marilyn Manson, Korn, The Offspring- the list is endless.
Peace is not spread like a disease. It is educated, it is a mentality, it is public policy, it is tolerance. It is not dependant on Robert Smith standing up on stage at the end of the concert and choosing not to sing a song which is based on art. Peace integrity over artist integrity? No. Integrity is maintaining a consistent sense of self and you're asking someone to abandon that.
You choose not to like or sing the song, that's ok. You choose to like the song and sing the song, thats ok. Let people be people.
Have a read here: https://gregstevens.com/2016/03/06/thoughts-killing-arab/
This is a very informative and well researched piece of writing.
I think your response is obviously coming from a deeply personal space and it's your own feelings about the song, being scared, that is clouding your judgement.
It's not about race. It's not about hatred. It's not about fear. Therefore, by not singing it cannot be about peace. There is no correlation between the two. I fail to see it. You don't seem to touch upon the censorship aspect of the previous controversy? You seem to be advocating for censorship...
See the issue is, there is a younger more captive generation out there and by spreading a very confused message about peace and this song, you're stirring a pot, a pot that could boil over and have some devastating consequences. You're also coming very close to demonising the band you love for a song they wrote in their youth and if you read that article, have thoughts of their own which you should digest.
Also, to ask someone to rise above their 'self-righteousness', to where? You're level? Isn't that more self-righteous and somewhat sanctimonious in itself? You can't say that you love certain things about a person and then try to take them away, with the same hand.
But don't you get that your not making them safe because you are putting labels on everyone? Your taking traits from people and defining them, rather than letting people define themselves! Your trying to stuff everyone into their own box. There is no box. There is only people and they should choose to define themselves- not you or society. If you really wanted peace, proper real peace, there would be no labels. There would only people standing with one another as human beings, free of religion, colour, race, gender, sexuality the lot. So what your doing is counter productive. You might think it comes from a good place but its totally misinformed and its misplaced. The same way you have plucked a song and paired it with hatred.
None of it computes. And we are going to keep going around in circles because you don't seem to grasp the gravity of your comments, which you yourself have made public. You have also now alluded to a public figure behaving inappropriately with young girls. Do you understand the UK's stance on historic child sex crimes right now? Do you know the amount of famous people who have been investigated for such allegations? Its you who should exercise a filter. You don't demonise him but follow that statement with something so severe and abhorrent?
You need to stop now, because you're bringing f****** ill conceived comments into a public realm that you clearly have no idea about.
I'm finished here. You might want to start thinking before you speak.
Quote from: tanyasmith on April 22, 2019, 22:43:38I don't demonize Robert Smith. He may have [...], he may have not.
Unless you have proof of what you are insinuating (not someone claiming on Pinterest something - people fabricate things on the internet everyday) there's a "Modify" button you can use to remove this part. We can't just write something that serious to harm people's reputation. This is serious.
Been following The Cure for over 15 years, never heard something like this, nor from anyone, nor did I find such thing on the internet.
p.s. will comment on the opening post later.
'People who have been disenfranchised'- is that not the whole point of the song in the first place? And those who have been judged normally turn to music when that happens, yet you are comfortable enough to tear that down. If you feel so strongly about it all, why aren't you using your voice more appropriately? Instead of this crusade of confusion, with Pinterest as an apparently valid source. Put your voice behind matters that will see change, that will see a result. If you want to spread peace, this is not the way to go about it and it seems that no matter what anyone says, you will not and cannot accept that. You said you don't engage in negativity, then what are you doing? I'm curious now as to why you seem to be victim blaming by saying its young women throwing themselves at people- you're creating a schizophrenic narrative. You might want to solidify a stance and stick to it.
This is my point. You don't seem to have a full grasp of anything you are saying.
Quote from: tanyasmith on April 22, 2019, 16:37:25
I know that this is not an easy question with an easy answer. It has pros and cons on both sides. I just wonder which is more important: to keep making a personal statement by singing it or to make a global statement that promotes peace by not singing it?
Could it be that you got it wrong right from the start? :?
"Killing An Arab" may sound like an "angry" song, but it is based on the book "The Outsider" ("L'Etranger" = "The Stranger") by Albert Camus (as has been mentioned many times before).
https://www.songfacts.com/facts/the-cure/killing-an-arab
QuoteThis was inspired by Albert Camus' book The Stranger (also known as The Outsider). It is not a racist song, but still caused a lot of controversy because many people assumed so because of the title. The book deals with existentialism, and the title "Killing An Arab" was taken from a passage where the main character thinks about the emptiness of life after killing a man on a beach for reasons he can't explain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stranger_(Camus_novel)
QuoteThe title character is Meursault, an indifferent French Algerian described as "a citizen of France domiciled in North Africa, a man of the Mediterranean, an homme du midi yet one who hardly partakes of the traditional Mediterranean culture". He attends his mother's funeral. A few days later, he kills an Arab man in French Algiers, who was involved in a conflict with a friend. Meursault is tried and sentenced to death. The story is divided into two parts, presenting Meursault's first-person narrative view before and after the murder, respectively.
In January 1955, Camus wrote:
I summarized The Stranger a long time ago, with a remark I admit was highly paradoxical: 'In our society any man who does not weep at his mother's funeral runs the risk of being sentenced to death.' I only meant that the hero of my book is condemned because he does not play the game.
In my opinion, this song (based on the book, as stated by Robert many times since 1978) has often been misunderstood (and I would not say it is a "personal statement", it is just a song based on literature)!
From the link above posted by chemicaloverload:
Quote"If there's one thing I would change, it's the title," says Smith, sounding a little weary. "I wrote it when I was still in school and I had no idea that anyone would ever listen to it other than my immediate school friends. One of the themes of the song is that everyone's existence is pretty much the same. Everyone lives, everyone dies, our existences are the same. It's as far from a racist song as you can write. It seems though that no one can get past the title and that's incredibly frustrating."
(*Me re-entering the forum*)
... "what did I miss?" ...ummmm.....
...side-note. Obviously the claims on Pinterest are bogus. If you should make such statements please post a link (so we can rightly look into it and debunk it) rather than make claims without any supportive evidence. Thanks 🙏🏼
Quote from: word_on_a_wing on April 23, 2019, 11:55:56
...side-note. Obviously the claims on Pinterest are bogus.
dsanchez has addressed this issue already - let's not discuss this any further in a topic about the first Cure single and why they still play it live.
Quote from: Ulrich on April 23, 2019, 14:09:55
Quote from: word_on_a_wing on April 23, 2019, 11:55:56
...side-note. Obviously the claims on Pinterest are bogus.
dsanchez has addressed this issue already - let's not discuss this any further in a topic about the first Cure single and why they still play it live.
Good point
(...I think my psychologist brain switched into gear ... making claims? I want references)
My final thoughts (cue Dr Phil music) ...while we may find ourselves grabbing hold of views or beliefs (whatever they may be) it is all an attempt to get ground under our feet, to try feel more secure in this finite play in which we live ...which begs the question ...when will we awake and realise we don't need ground under our feet, that we can FLY ...and holding on so tightly to beliefs and views keeps us asleep and weighed down on this earth.
...and now to end with a lyric from Killing An Arab ...
"Whichever I chose
It amounts to the same
Absolutely nothing"
Quote from: tanyasmith on April 22, 2019, 22:43:38
At Hyde Park, I stood behind an Israeli man and his wife. They were beautiful people, in and out. I also stood next to a German woman, dark-haired, blue-eyed, Queen of the underdogs, a universal mother who had snacks for us all in her very large tote bag. At the end of the show we all stood stoically, confused, impressed, hoping that there was a good reason they performed that song.
I totally get that. We had a similar discussion in November 2016, and The Cure played KaA instead
of Why Can't I Be You. It was the end of the tour, so it was appropriate. I'm against a constant removal,
however. That's it from my side.
Quote from: MeltingMan on April 23, 2019, 15:47:00
We had a similar discussion in November 2016...
I'm against a constant removal
If they'd remove it (or e.g. if they hadn't played it at HP), soon there would be voices asking "why didn't they play that first single (at an anniversary show)?"
My guess:
the reason why they play it is that they still like the song and enjoy to perform it on stage.
(Whether that is a good reason, everyone should decide for themselves...) :neutral-face
My question is: has any one of you here ever read that book by A. Camus? I did so, back in 1989.
Quote from: tanyasmith on April 23, 2019, 16:56:15
Do you all see the irony of your comments, asking me to remove statements I've made, asking me to censor my thoughts and input?
Nothing wrong with thoughts and input. However, asking you to remove
allegations and accusations based on rumors is
not censorship!! :pouting-face
It is simply to protect you (and the forum) from any legal action!!!
Quote from: tanyasmith on April 23, 2019, 16:56:15
I just don't understand the need The Cure has (and Cure fans) to make dramatic features of this song, such as closing their anniversary show with it, at the possible expense of alienating innocent Cure fans, at the possible expense of it being used as racist propaganda...
Sorry, you are totally over-interpreting things here! The one making "dramatic features" out of it is you!
Anyone who calls her/himself "Cure fan" should know about the song and the why and wherefores. (The most basic links about the song and the book have already been put here into this topic.)
Any Cure fan who still does not know that the song is
not about racism, should definitely go and do his/her homework! NOW!! (There, I'm the teacher yet again...) :evil:
Quote from: Ulrich on April 23, 2019, 17:35:01
My question is: has any one of you here ever read that book by A. Camus? I did so, back in 1989.
Quote from: tanyasmith on April 23, 2019, 16:56:15
Do you all see the irony of your comments, asking me to remove statements I've made, asking me to censor my thoughts and input?
Nothing wrong with thoughts and input. However, asking you to remove allegations and accusations based on rumors is not censorship!! :pouting-face
It is simply to protect you (and the forum) from any legal action!!!
You summarized pretty well, @Ulrich :smth023
@tanya, if you would have posted those R.S. allegations on Twitter, not only that tweet would have been reported by all The Cure fans out there, but Twitter might have taken actions with your account (I am glad you were reasonable enough to remove those allegations here on the forum)
As for the topic itself, yes, this song has been and will be controversial (no for Curefans who know its background, of course) because its title. During the release of the Standing On A Beach compilation, a campaign forced The Cure (https://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/21/arts/rock-group-accedes-to-arab-protest.html) to place stickers on the album's cover to clarify the song had not any racist purpose whatsoever:
QuoteA rock song called ''Killing an Arab'' by a British group, the Cure, has resulted in a nationwide campaign to control the implications of its title. Although the song itself does not have a racist message, the Cure announced yesterday that it had agreed, after protests from the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, to place explanatory stickers on albums, to add a message in the credits of its concert film and to discourage American radio stations from playing the song.
This is not the first time The Cure take such an action. During the time of the Muhammad cartoons, I remember the band changed the title of the song to "Killing Another".
In one of the posts above, Tanya said:
QuoteIn Hyde Park I stood, I listened, I watched. Robert's face was contorted in hatred, as if he was using that song to release angry feelings. Could be healing for him, but is it healing for our earth and the people in it?
That's just speculation. We don't know what's in Robert's mind. What we know is that this is a song written during Bob's punk time. This is not a slow song. This is not "Apart" or "The Big Hand", this is an energetic, amazing song to end a gig. I still remember pretty well back in 2013 when I was pogo-dancing that song at the National Stadium of Lima with my friends and I swear you, the last thing that crossed our minds were Muslims, Arabs or killings: we were just enjoying the music.
QuoteShould the song Killing an Arab be sang uncensored, with more consideration or completely taken off the playlist at concerts?
I am totally fine with any change as long as the song is not removed from gigs, but that's just my opinion. In the end is, up to the band to decide whether to play it or not. Honestly, The Cure removing or adding this song won't make any difference to world peace (there are much more relevant subjects out there!). In the end, when you look the overall picture, The Cure has created more than a hundred songs. If anything, their music has brought more peace and happiness to the world than it hasn't.
Quote from: tanyasmith on April 23, 2019, 19:43:58
It always been my impression that Robert Smith is a non-racist. He and his wife sponsored some children in South America (Aurora was the girl Robert sponsored, I believe, and Mary sponsored a boy).
And now? It has been pointed out often enough now that the song is non-racist too. So why go on (and on and on)?
Quote from: tanyasmith on April 23, 2019, 19:43:58
How do all these titles sound?
Are you still going on about the title? Did you not understand what Robert said???
"It seems though that no one can get past the title and that's incredibly frustrating."
Got it?
Quote from: tanyasmith on April 23, 2019, 19:43:58
Who does the singer relate himself to in the song?
Read the book (or at least a summary - some links are already in here)!
This a shitemare and a total f*cking buzz kill.
A full day later and we're swinging back to the same f*cking argument
@tanya, you're going in circles here. you won't convinced me that the song should be removed, and I won't convince you that the song should not be removed. But something that you should do urgently(!) is to read Camus's book from start to end. Putting the song in its context will probably make you see it in a different way.
Quote from: Ulrich on April 23, 2019, 16:55:28
My guess: the reason why they play it is that they still like the song and enjoy to perform it on stage.
...and that's perfectly fine. The decision back then was right. See the quote below.
Quote from: dsanchezSo the band finally included this song in the London shows.
Definitely a better closing than Why Can't I Be You!
:smth023
Quote from: tanyasmith on April 23, 2019, 23:22:52
I can get past the title and appreciate the song for its darkness and mystery, for its weight and complexity, but is it going to hurt anybody that he keeps singing it? Do you really think most people are going to spend the time to educate themselves on it and get past the title if the title has alienated them?
I don't know how many people will do that. Do you? Have you met any Cure fan who hasn't? What were the reactions to your tweet?
For how many years have they performed this song? How long is it going to take until "people" are going to "get it"?
I myself was (kinda) surprised when the band "resurrected" some old tunes (incl. KaA) during the '96 tour, because in the previous years with the shows I'd seen ('92-'95) the encores mostly consisted of songs like "A Forest", "Why can't I be you", "Close to me" etc.!
(Btw, with the next shows coming up celebrating the anniversary of "Disintegration", there is a good chance this first single will
not be in the setlist!!!) :)
Uhhh, why is this still going on on Twitter?
It makes for some interesting reading, especially the Trump impeachment part and quite frankly, I can't tell the difference between the two of you, holding on to non issues to monopolise peoples time to advance a warped agenda.
https://twitter.com/bonnie_strohl/status/1121117046987808768?s=21
Quote from: tanyasmith on April 25, 2019, 00:02:11
My friends, I rest my case
So can we close this topic for good?
Quote from: tanyasmith on April 25, 2019, 00:02:11My friends, I rest my case:
https://www.newstatesman.com/2018/07/killing-arab-the-cure-single-hyde-park
This is a very good and nuanced discussion; however I disagree that "Killing Another" is "scarcely better" than the frankly goofy "Kissing an Arab" and "Killing an Ahab". If you want to *adapt* Camus for today's world, "Killing an Other" (sic) carries the point about a nihilism so numbing that all other human beings become Others to you and you're detached from all human emotion to the point where you don't feel anything pulling the trigger... And imho it does so better than "Killing an Arab", which is a more literal adaptation of the novel and Meursault's inner monologue and thus a reflection of the protagonist's racism.
Now, Robert himself spoke about it and I think with that all should be said.
QuoteYou closed out the Hyde Park concert with "Killing an Arab." Even though it's based on Camus' The Stranger, that song has faced a lot of controversy over the years. How do you feel about it now?
RS: I went through a period when I was singing, "Killing another." There are two periods where I was going to reintroduce it into the set, and both times it's become a focal point. I'm still getting questions about it. I just wanted to reclaim it. I thought if I can't do it now with the 40th anniversary of it, that's it. What am I going to do, pretend I never wrote it? I've reached an age where I think if people misunderstand it and don't bother to try and understand what the song is about, then tough shit, really. I've given up explaining. Go read Albert Camus. I mean, go read Albert Camus anyway, because he wrote some great books. It's been misappropriated, and I thought I should take it back. In modern parlance, I should own that song again. The others will think, "Oh, come on, because it's going to be a talking point."
"Killing an Arab" is a song about many things, but essentially, it's about the value of human life and the value that other people give to their own life and to others. It's a complex subject distilled very badly into a three-minute pop song. I could probably write a better one now, but I don't think it would have the same authenticity.
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/cure-band-robert-smith-interview-40-live-893005/
OMG, honestly. I 100% agree with
@Ulrich and with Robert Smith on this topic. We can't always be catering to the misconceptions of the lowest common denominator - but we can deal with Neonazis etc at venues by having security remove them when they cause trouble. It is the people causing trouble who need to be dealt with, not the writers of songs that are misinterpreted by idiots, nor should perfectly acceptable material be censored (by not performing it because of idiots). I think it's the height of irony that a song that deals with the value of human life is misinterpreted by people with three brain cells who aren't listening to the lyrics, purely based on a title,
Killing An Arab, which is being read by these idiots as an instruction to go kill people of a certain ethnic background - simply because that fits their own proclivities. This is not in any way the fault of the song, and 100% the fault of the idiots, so repercussions need to happen for them when they behave badly, not for the song.
But I suppose in America, there is now a mindset that the rest of society is somehow supposed to bend over backwards for idiots, as was seen a while back when a woman successfully sued a microwave manufacturer because she was stupid enough to microwave her own chihuahua, which, needless to say, died in the process. Why did she do that? To blow-dry it after a bath. :1f629: It is she who should have been fined, not the manufacturer of the device - who was deemed to have failed the general public by not including in the instructions that you shouldn't microwave your dog. :1f632: So, based on that type of 'thinking', nobody is now required to educate themselves before using new technology, or to use commonsense when living everyday life, or to understand and live by the idea of personal responsibility - instead, idiots can always sue someone else for their predictable mishaps - such as tripping over tree roots in the park because they're not looking where they are going - and this has now been actioned successfully both in America and Australia. Burglars in both countries can now sue house owners if they hurt themselves gaining illegal entry to plunder those houses - and have done exactly that, on numerous occasions. I think it is really important that thoughtful citizens stand up and oppose this sort of rubbish, instead of allowing themselves to be carried along by this societal insanity.
It's also pretty rich to ask Robert Smith to make a statement about his views on other ethnic groups - that's as insulting as the situation we had here in Australia after 9/11, when mainstream society started calling upon ordinary Muslims to make statements about extremist Muslim terrorists, and felt they weren't making their views clear enough and therefore saw that (and very wrongly) as the endorsement of extremism and terrorism by these ordinary citizens. Sociopaths exist in any ethnic group. Their crimes are their responsibility, not the responsibility of other people who happen to look like them.
The answer to this problem isn't to hassle people who write perfectly acceptable songs, or who come from the same ethnic group as the sociopath who made news today, or who don't have safety glass in all their windows to prevent burglars from cutting themselves when gaining illegal entry, or technology manufacturers who don't say, "Please don't insert this blender stick into bodily orifices because that can cause horrific injuries," etc etc etc. Part of the answer is self-education, and public education - and another is to create the expectation as a community that people are responsible for their personal actions and for educating themselves (and yeah, reading Camus is totally consistent with that) - and another part is repercussions for hate crimes and bad behaviour, so that the rest of society doesn't have to end up cowering in the face of idiots and sociopaths. Feel free to expand that list of real solutions, which aren't about putting our heads collectively in the sand.
Quote from: tanyasmith on October 19, 2019, 18:53:31I'm glad Robert has addressed it recently, but I don't understand why he won't acknowledge that there is a lot of hatred toward Muslims and racism toward Arab people in general, especially in America, where I live and Western Europe where immigrants are facing resistance from a lot of the people and the government. When they played the song in Mexico recently it seemed like a good place to play it because the issues in Mexico right now are not related to hate against Muslims and Arabs, but to drug cartels and poverty. Here in America people are still sore about 9/11 and many people don't know the difference between Muslim, terrorist, and Arab, so there's this general racism from uneducated people against anybody who looks like they're from the Middle East. I don't know how Robert's recent statement in Rolling Stone puts to rest singing a song about Killing an Arab...? I understand his loyalty to the song and that he doesn't want to reject something that he feels is part of himself, as he wrote it and it helped put The Cure on the map, but who besides intellectual Cure fans are going to read Albert Camus to understand the deeper meaning of the song? It's rumored that Camus himself was a racist...People at Cure shows don't just stand still in intellectual wonder when The Cure performs the song, but drunk, riled up audience members use it as a reason to start mosh pits. It's easy for Robert Smith to stand on stage and perform the song as an art piece, as a complicated, humanist statement because he doesn't have to deal with getting smashed, squeezed, or elbowed. Out of respect to the feebler Cure fans, can't he just save the song for special occasions? The truth is I'd like to know how he personally feels about Arab people.
I genuinely don't know where to begin with this one. It has to be the most American thing I've ever read. Extremely literal-minded, suspicious of the least degree of complexity, tackling the issue strictly on the level of headlines and talking points, seeking to censor in the name of shallow "wokeness" and yet cluelessly accepting a great deal of right-wing framing.
My favorite has to be the following glorious non-sequitur: "It's rumored that Camus himself was a racist..." Just a lil something you've heard on the grapevine...
QuoteThe truth is I'd like to know how he personally feels about Arab people.
Robert, the life-long left-winger and anti-racist, owes an explanation to someone who cannot be bothered to read anything. That's the gist of your message. Truly, I understand why you believe he owes something to the "feebler" Cure fans, but he doesn't.
(https://s.faketrumptweet.com/k1ya5pby_1sdvvip_likhl4.png)
Quote from: tanyasmith on October 20, 2019, 02:40:36but when singing a song that mentions the killing of a member of a disenfranchised group of people without being clear that the song is not about hating that disenfranchised member of society
The Cure has been very clear about this topic long time ago. If the below notice (inserted in every 'Standing On A Beach' album) is not clear, then I don't know what is.
(http://52.17.98.47/upload/items/0030-4.jpg)
Yesterday I had the strong urge to close this topic, to end it with Robert's quote... IF ONLY I'd listened to this inner voice... :1f62b:
Now I go online in the morning to read the same nonsense which started this topic. Whatever happened to "I REST MY CASE", tanya? :1f633:
What's wrong with you? We have a great new interview with lots of stuff to comment. There is a new dvd/blu out with Cure music. Should be lots of topics to talk about, but you are discussing the same old thing here? :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
Any more lines in the same direction as above I will view as "dangerously close to trolling". :unamused:
In my opinion, everything has been said long ago; Robert's explanation of the song above would've made a great closing note.
Quote from: tanyasmith on October 20, 2019, 17:24:06It seems you're concerned that somebody will agree with me and then maybe my opinion will get more credence and then maybe The Cure will be asked to stop ...
No, absolutely not. I'm more concerned about you not understanding what the band and other people said. Riding around on the same subject is close to trolling, sorry. Topic will be closed soon.
Once again, what happened to "rest my case"? :?
Quote from: tanyasmith on October 20, 2019, 17:56:19I have read and took in what others are saying about this song. I understand ....
No you didn't understand much of what others posted and what the band said about the song and its origin. Instead, you were
still talking about
the title of it (months after we'd cleared that!) and what it
might mean to people who have no idea and misunderstand it. Incredible really. ("shakes head in disbelief"...) :unamused:
Shut this shit down Ulrich, listen to the voices in your head from here on out :angel :evil:
Robert Smith already stated what the song is about and what the song is NOT about (this can be read here (http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=9116.msg771086#msg771086) and here (http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=9116.msg771076#msg771076)). There's really nothing else to add to the discussion. We all gave our opinions, but most important, the final decision whether to play or not this song in the future is entirely up to The Cure. Unless Robert talks again about the song and playing it live, this topic will remain closed.