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Off-Topic => Technical stuff => Topic started by: nausearockpig on August 12, 2007, 11:07:03

Title: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: nausearockpig on August 12, 2007, 11:07:03
For newbies like me who want to avoid stuff ups rather than cause them, i suggest the following points are noted:

1. If at all possible, avoid MiniDisc and go for something with a hard drive - see this thread for some options

2. Go to a practise show in your local area. doesn't matter what the band is, just as long as it's loud. stand near the speaker stack if you need to..

Practise also means getting your gear out from your "stashed" areas and setting it all up qickly and quietly... and discreetly..

And it means working out the best place for your mics.. i suggest out of a button up shirt.. just two little mics peeping out saying hello...

3. Roll each set of cables up into hand size loops and tape them up with some easy to break sticky tape. i suggest Scotch brand Magic Tape. it's a translucent tape that tears easily. best to fold the end of the piece of tape over on itself to leave an easy to pickup and unroll "flap".

4. Make sure you hide your gear well.. If you're a bloke, I suggest two pairs of briefs. put the unit between the two pairs but situated over your genitals. The battery box and and mics still between the two pairs of briefs and down under you where your legs meet. This should get you past any pat-downs you may encounter. If you're a woman, I can't really offer any advice. Sorry.

5. Get to the venue EARLY.. nothing worse than rushing your setup later on.

6. When lining up give the security guards something else to look at. Like a bottle of water with the lid off [they love checking those out] or a plastic bag with binoculars in them, or your backpack... you get the idea..

7. Seeing as you're there early, you could probably get to the doors early. Ask some inane question of the door person, like "gee it's not really busy", or "Do you know what time the band is coming on?" and then go to your seat..

8. A few minutes later smiling to the attendant on the way out go to the toilet [preferably one of those uni-sex or handicapped ones] and get in a cubicle, quickly put everything where it's supposed to be, set the recorder to go - in Pause mode if that's how yours works and head back in looking like you don't want to miss the band. Say something like "thank god they haven't started yet..."

9. Be cool and enjoy your night...

J
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: dsanchez on November 13, 2007, 16:48:18
Quote from: nausearockpig on August 12, 2007, 11:07:03
And it means working out the best place for your mics.. i suggest out of a button up shirt.. just two little mics peeping out saying hello...


This is the usual way? Does anyone put the mic somewhere else?

What about talking? Can you talk to your friend while taping?
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: scatcat on November 15, 2007, 14:46:41
 :rocker

really.. I was was for the first time reading this, discovering at what length you magical masters got to..   :D

I especially find curious point 4.!! :smth023 and then 6. through to 9.   :smth023

The imagination runs wild!!  :-D :D :smth043 :smth082 :smth085
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: japanesebaby on November 15, 2007, 14:57:02
Quote from: dsanchez on November 13, 2007, 16:48:18
What about talking? Can you talk to your friend while taping?


well, i guess it depends what one wants to record: the music or one's conversation with a friend during the show...? ;)
or, how many beer runs one made during this concert, maybe...


(in other words, if you want to make a decent recording then you don't sing or scream or talk to anyone or even move around (as the sound will be affected if the position/direction of the mics change), and you also try not to end up being placed  too close to people who concentrate on babbling - or beer runs. or whatever.)
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: Steve on November 15, 2007, 16:46:05
Quotehow many beer runs one made during this concert, maybe...


:smth043 :smth043

Sounds sort of familiar....
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: ernest newman on November 15, 2007, 18:27:01
just to expand upon where to put the mics. I would suggest mounting them on a hat, OKMIIR, Sonics, DPAS all can do this quite easily. Remember your mics pick up what it sounds like where there at, so next time your at a concert, lean down and listen to what the sound is like to your ears if your thinking about "chest or shirt level"..if your in a tightly packed room, on the floor at a gig, you will notice high end goes down quite a bit and bass rumble goes up as the bodies and heads in front of you muffle things. A friend and I did a comp of this long time ago with sonic studios and the difference was night and day, and those are omnis. Get the mics up above the heads and there is nothing to baffle or muffle between you and the speakers. If you have directional mics this is even much more important. If you like tapes by the following, they all go in the hat method : MBeat, JD, SR, AO, DS, SZ, KK, JJ, RL..these are all setups I have seen personally

how do you mount to a hat? there is many different ways. With OKMs and sonics you can cut two small holes in the front of a black hat and poke the mics out of there and there virtually impossible to see. With DPAs many people use clips that easily attach to the brim of the hat, some also use velcro. If your using bigger mics like Audio Technicas you can always go dork style and wear a mesh hat backwards and put the mics in the lining on each side.

Another advantage to a hat is that clown that comes darting in front or around you to go get his beer cant disturb the recording, while he will cause a real sound disturbance if your mics are down on your body.

Then there is that guy that always put the big old ECM mic on his belt, thats a waste of time and energy. You can hear the hollowness on these tapes right away

There is no right answer, but I used to run stupid tests on stuff like this all the time with friends when the opening band was on


If your new you are going to percieve yourself being far more obvious than you really are. Remember, at a show, nobody really is looking at you, there looking at the band. As long as you dont have neon pink wires and keep checking your recording light levels 100x a song in front of a security guard, nobody is really going to notice. With the Cure its not usually relevant, but taping the opening band makes you much more obvious. What I have found is there are some do-gooders who will tell a security guard you are taping, but they will not go out of their way to tell them. So if they see you doing it during the cure set, there not going to run and get somebody. If they see you doing it during an opening band, when its more obvious to be spotted, then when they do run up to get a drink between sets these do-gooders will drop a "you know that guy next to me is taping" to the usher.

Bottom line is get decent equipment, relax, practice at local shows before hand and just roll in and tape it. There is so many gizmos at shows these days, its hard for security to know if your messing with a cellphone, pda, etc and they usually dont care unless your that goof trying to videotape the entire concert on your cellphone. they will chase you down for that, and its really damn annoying to the persons behind you
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: Pooka on November 16, 2007, 00:16:08
Quote from: ernest newman on November 15, 2007, 18:27:01
just to expand upon where to put the mics. I would suggest mounting them on a hat, OKMIIR, Sonics, DPAS all can do this quite easily. Remember your mics pick up what it sounds like where there at, so next time your at a concert, lean down and listen to what the sound is like to your ears if your thinking about "chest or shirt level"..if your in a tightly packed room, on the floor at a gig, you will notice high end goes down quite a bit and bass rumble goes up as the bodies and heads in front of you muffle things. A friend and I did a comp of this long time ago with sonic studios and the difference was night and day, and those are omnis. Get the mics up above the heads and there is nothing to baffle or muffle between you and the speakers. If you have directional mics this is even much more important. If you like tapes by the following, they all go in the hat method : MBeat, JD, SR, AO, DS, SZ, KK, JJ, RL..these are all setups I have seen personally

how do you mount to a hat? there is many different ways. With OKMs and sonics you can cut two small holes in the front of a black hat and poke the mics out of there and there virtually impossible to see. With DPAs many people use clips that easily attach to the brim of the hat, some also use velcro. If your using bigger mics like Audio Technicas you can always go dork style and wear a mesh hat backwards and put the mics in the lining on each side.

Another advantage to a hat is that clown that comes darting in front or around you to go get his beer cant disturb the recording, while he will cause a real sound disturbance if your mics are down on your body.

Then there is that guy that always put the big old ECM mic on his belt, thats a waste of time and energy. You can hear the hollowness on these tapes right away

There is no right answer, but I used to run stupid tests on stuff like this all the time with friends when the opening band was on


If your new you are going to percieve yourself being far more obvious than you really are. Remember, at a show, nobody really is looking at you, there looking at the band. As long as you dont have neon pink wires and keep checking your recording light levels 100x a song in front of a security guard, nobody is really going to notice. With the Cure its not usually relevant, but taping the opening band makes you much more obvious. What I have found is there are some do-gooders who will tell a security guard you are taping, but they will not go out of their way to tell them. So if they see you doing it during the cure set, there not going to run and get somebody. If they see you doing it during an opening band, when its more obvious to be spotted, then when they do run up to get a drink between sets these do-gooders will drop a "you know that guy next to me is taping" to the usher.

Bottom line is get decent equipment, relax, practice at local shows before hand and just roll in and tape it. There is so many gizmos at shows these days, its hard for security to know if your messing with a cellphone, pda, etc and they usually dont care unless your that goof trying to videotape the entire concert on your cellphone. they will chase you down for that, and its really damn annoying to the persons behind you


Curefans and potential hobbyists, I suggest you all pin and take note as to what this man said above and start sending out all those karma points right now, as you will likely never hear tips shared by the other guys mentioned.

Another word to people running Core Sound Binaurls or even DPAs with clips. As tempting and as cool as it would be to mount on a pair glasses, DON'T DO IT. Unless you have a lot of hair and can hide the mics or put the glasses on top of your head at an angle, you will still look very obvious and it will be a dead giveaway to people in the crowd and security (even if you are as tall as a lamp post). An Eastern European DAT taper mounted his CSBs on his glasses at one of the Trilogy shows and he got lucky he did not get caught, but Simon saw him and laughed.

Hat mount is good but there are other ways. The key is to do it above neck level, as high as you can go. Don't duck tape the mics to the back of your neck either, you'll definitely capture the chatter and karaoke singing behind you.

Or if opportunity presents itself, if you are somewhere indoors like a club, tape the mics to a wall post, column, concrete block/pillar or what not, well above everyone else's heads. For those of you who have Kraftwerk Coachella 2004 and noted what a stellar soundboard sounding DPA4060 tape that was, the mics were mounted that way in that tent.

Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: Tof on November 16, 2007, 18:49:27
What's happened if the security find the recorder before the show ???
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: japanesebaby on November 16, 2007, 19:38:29
my favorites (something new for a change):

1) don't live in the US because they have all those metal detectors and crazy annoying stuff like that at the gates. take it easy and live somewhere nice and quiet (like here!) where you could easily just walk to the gig with a shotgun (or two) under your coat if you only wanted to and start blasting around...

2) most of all: just don't be a guy!  :-D because guy's get groped and patted down a lot more. be a woman and you'll be just fine. besides, it seems to be somehow "more allowed" for women to have this and that and a purse and a bag and all kinds of stuff with you, so no-one's going to bother going through it all that carefully. a guy with a handbag catches a lot more attention, imo.


:lol:
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: lostflower4 on November 16, 2007, 20:55:08
Quote from: Tof on November 16, 2007, 18:49:27
What's happened if the security find the recorder before the show ???


What do you mean? Like before you get in the door?

Whatever you do, don't let them take your stuff. Run if necessary.
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: crowbi_wan on November 16, 2007, 21:07:08
Quote from: lostflower4 on November 16, 2007, 20:55:08
Quote from: Tof on November 16, 2007, 18:49:27
What's happened if the security find the recorder before the show ???


What do you mean? Like before you get in the door?

Whatever you do, don't let them take your stuff. Run if necessary.


Yeah, run away and go in another entrance.
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: lostflower4 on November 16, 2007, 21:24:06
By the way, how did these topics become separate?


http://www.curefans.com/index.php/topic,4255


Confusing, if you ask me!
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: dsanchez on November 16, 2007, 23:35:34
Quote from: lostflower4 on November 16, 2007, 21:24:06
By the way, how did these topics become separate?


http://www.curefans.com/index.php/topic,4255


Confusing, if you ask me!


Actually I split the original topic in 3 parts:

-Tips to tape a concert (the topic you're reding now)
-Tips to hide equiment in a concert (the link you're referring to)
-Equipment for tape a concert
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: sullen on November 17, 2007, 02:29:54
Delighted to see you all taking up the hobby.
Absolutley delighted.
Cheers.

I think Ernie covered all my tricks so i can't give much more advice than that.

My glasses mount is similar to the one right above me,
also dpa, on sunglasses w/ no croakie mount, rigged these to where they are virtually invincible with my colored black hair, mic bodies are clipped to the front by sides of the lenses.
i rest the glasses ON TOP of my head and point them to the stacks, something worth thinking about for glasses mounters rather than wearing them with regular glasses,

this sunglasses trick works wonders and gives an extra few inches, and is very helpful for those of us who dont like to wear hats.

My tapes usually come out worlds better than mexico 2007, i was just limited with my horrible seating arrangements.
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: lostflower4 on November 17, 2007, 02:35:12
Quote from: sullen on November 17, 2007, 02:29:54I think Ernie covered all my tricks so i can't give much more advice than that.


One thing I might add...

Taking beer breaks in the middle of songs "slightly" ruins the sound of a recording. Well, now you know.  :lol:
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: sullen on November 17, 2007, 02:38:09
Quote from: lostflower4 on November 17, 2007, 02:35:12
Quote from: sullen on November 17, 2007, 02:29:54I think Ernie covered all my tricks so i can't give much more advice than that.


One thing I might add...

Taking beer breaks in the middle of songs "slightly" ruins the sound of a recording. Well, now you know.  :lol:


This is very true, but my sound was ruined with my seats anyways, so....

and hey, it was only on the pop songs!  : )
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: lostflower4 on November 17, 2007, 02:47:23
Quote from: sullen on November 17, 2007, 02:38:09This is very true, but my sound was ruined with my seats anyways, so....

and hey, it was only on the pop songs!  : )


Well, you left right in the middle of the Club America guitar solo. Say what you will about that song, but it's the first time they played it in 10 years â€" and Robert was rocking out.  :?

Did you do this at every show you go to?  Just an honest question...

Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: sullen on November 18, 2007, 17:33:32
Sorry to disappoint you.
Not a fav track of mine and had more than my fill of it on the Swing tour...

From where I was standing, as you heard when I was not at the bar.
The sound was nothing great.

Every show?
Absolutley not.

There are variables on when I will wander the venue:
How good my spot is.
How much i like the band.
How drunk i am.
How good the performance is.
How much my back hurts.
How much i like the song playing when i want a drink.
Etc, etc, etc..........

If I am taping a band I like alot by the stacks,
of course, i am stone the whole show.

Even if im taping a band I love,
and i have a bad spot, 3 nights in mexico for example,
i may not put full effort into a tape.

It's not crucial to me to stand still for excessive legnths
of time if i feel the final outcome won't be worth it to me.

I was miles away from the stage in a tin can with omnis,
so it really wasn't worth it for me......

Had i been on the floor,
this would have been a different story.....

Normally I wouldn't have shared a tape with that quality to begin with,
but you all wanted to heear it, and nobody else was stepping up to the
plate with their sources, jeff is excluded from that comment, and i know
the other guys have their reasons, and i know what reasons they are,
which i respect, aside from the two sellers.
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: lostflower4 on November 19, 2007, 04:05:05
In all fairness, I think your third night recording is decent and enjoyable to listen to (when you were facing the stage ;))

Sure, it would have been better if you were closer...
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: melly on November 19, 2007, 09:20:07
Re; nausearockpigs' suggestion at number 4.. ahem..."Is that your microphones, battery box, camera and leads or are you just pleased to see me?"...

Quite incredible what you have to do!!! I have already patted these guys on the back in the "stealth" thread... so ditto to you people too!! :smth023
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: sullen on November 19, 2007, 23:54:38
thanx, im not so happy with it though.

sec c14

(http://media.ticketmaster.com/es-mx/tmimages/venue/maps/mxc/19946s.gif)

so not really, way way way back,
of course i was looking towards stage/stacks,
but this was just too far to get a good pull.  : (
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: Steve on November 20, 2007, 16:28:26
I liked the Mexico recordings, so many thanks for those.
Even the beer breaks make me smile. ;)
Good job you weren't in E1 then.....
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: sullen on November 21, 2007, 01:34:16
second night i was in, E31 i think it was,
third night was C14
first night was E19, in the very last row.
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: j on November 21, 2007, 04:13:40
Damn, dude.  You did have some shit seats.  First night I was A8, second to last row, second night, front row of A6.  See where the front corner of A6 is cut off- right where A1 meets A6?  That is where I was!
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: sullen on November 22, 2007, 15:44:05
Yeah, they were pretty pitiful.
Happy to be there, but the seating was terrible.
I haven't had seats that bad since the swing tour.

I booked all the tickets when the first night was "sold out"
and there were only nosebleeds left for the other two.

2 weeks later, floor seats for all 3 nights were released.
I was pissed.
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: dsanchez on October 15, 2008, 18:28:23
Can anyone give tips about recording in a small venue (100-200 persons)?

My equipment is an iRiver iHP-120, Giant Squid Audio Lab Omnidirectional Powered Stereo mics, and sound professionals mini-battery module.

Yesterday I taped the Cranes concert in Paris. It was all perfect. I even could put the mics attached to some fixed area so no problem about moving, etc.

But when I hear the record, the bass is just toooooo much.

Is this because it was a small venue or because of the fact I recorded very close to the stage? (I'm a big Cranes fan so I wanted to be very close to Alison).

I have taped before in big venues (5000-50000 people) and it was fine despite I didnt have good mics like these I have now.

Tips are welcome!
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: Tof on October 15, 2008, 18:57:26
You are at the cranes show yesterday !!!

You must tell me that you are going to this show, I have some french friend from LOUDEST CURE who are going to !!!

Next time ...
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: dsanchez on October 15, 2008, 19:07:58
That's a pitty! I was using my Curefans.com shirt expecting to meet some Cure fans but nothing... Anyway, I will let you know next time! :smth023

Anything about my recording that sucks?! :roll:
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: lostflower4 on October 16, 2008, 07:52:01
Quote from: dsanchez on October 15, 2008, 19:07:58Anything about my recording that sucks?! :roll:


Well, I'm just going to be blunt in saying that it's not really a problem of "too much bass", but more specifically that the recording (especially the bass) is distorted.

I'm really not sure how this happened. Assuming you didn't alter the levels in the sample you provided, it seems like you weren't overloading the iRiver.

I really hope Sound Professionals battery box is compatible with Giant Squid mics. Most mics/battery boxes tend to be interchangeable with a standard 9 volt bias power, but I'll try to find more info about this.

As for your position... As a general rule of thumb I never get closer than 5 rows from the stage when I'm in the center. When you're too close, a lot of the sounds from the PA can go over your head, leading to a strange mix. Sometimes it helps to be a fair distance back -- but that all depends on a lot of different things.

On other hand, there are times when getting close to the stage is necessary. But in these cases I'd recommend picking a side and basically recording one of the stacks. This is helpful in venues with bad acoustics, lots of talkers, or a poor PA system.

But I'd say the two big problems with your recording here are that it's distorted (I'm not sure why), and that you were probably too close for this particular situation.



Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: revolt on October 16, 2008, 12:52:07
Quote from: dsanchez on October 15, 2008, 18:28:23
Is this because it was a small venue or because of the fact I recorded very close to the stage? (I'm a big Cranes fan so I wanted to be very close to Alison).



Haha, love and "business" don't go well together...  :-D
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: japanesebaby on October 16, 2008, 13:02:30
i was also thinking whether it might be some sort of a battery box/mics compatibility issue.
like already said, there's not "too much bass" on your recording (besides that would never be a problem - whereas too little bass always would be a problem). the bass is distorted (and without levels having been too high) which is a different thing altogether. 

would be best to find out what battery boxes are recommended with giant squid mics.
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: dsanchez on October 17, 2008, 04:16:55
I think I just had to follow the manual and test my mics before in another concert. I don't know when I can get to see the Cranes again :cry:

Anyway, I will tape some random band and will be back with the results.
Title: Re: Tips to tape a concert
Post by: dsanchez on October 29, 2008, 19:35:10
I've taped Mogwai in Paris yesterday (mics connected directly to the iRiver, no battery box used), here's attached the result.

I think is OK. Almost all the recording sounds good, just in a couple of songs (the loudest ones) the audio is a bit distorted but I think is because I was (again) close to the right speaker on the stage. So guys, never be close to the stage if you want a perfect recording :P