January 19, 2020, 16:39:50

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1
Deutsches forum / Re: "So richtig düster waren C...
Last post by SueC - Today at 06:21:17
Quote from: undefined"10 Uhr 15 Samstagnacht - der Wasserhahn tropft im Licht der Leuchtstoffröhre - und ich sitze im Küchen-Waschbecken - und der Hahn tropft, tropft, tropft, tropft, tropft..."

Schon mal von einer Dichtung gehört?  (Und ich meine das Objekt, mit dem man tropfende Wasserhähne reparieren kann - die andere Version tut das nicht, was Herr Smith vermutlich selber herausfand!  :winking_tongue )
2
Other Artists / Re: Currently Listening to
Last post by SueC - Today at 05:30:30
Quote from: piggymirror on January 18, 2020, 17:45:38
Quote from: BiscuityBoyle on January 17, 2020, 17:37:00György Kurtág, the last of the giants of 20th century avant-garde still alive today.

Brilliant.

I like the strings on this, but have to admit I don't like the vocal (but that doesn't mean the vocal is pointless).

I like that Calexico track too, @Ulrich:cool

It's nice to be tuning into this "alternative radio station" - and @piggymirror, if you post actual clips I'll listen to your stuff too, I'm just too lazy to look it up. ;)

3
Music and Lyrics / Re: Exploring "Join The Dots"
Last post by SueC - Today at 04:25:52
Well, 4:13 Dream has arrived in the mail for $13 including postage, "slightly used, excellent condition" and indeed has no scratches and you wouldn't know someone bought and listened to it before me, other than it didn't have a clear wrapper over the top, which not all new CDs have anyway.  The remastered versions of Kiss Me and The Head On The Door are on their way from the UK, so I want to get a move on and finish this B-sides thread.

An aside - this is the worst cover art I've ever seen on any album, I mean, honestly, it's just horrible.  The cover is reminiscent of a burnt clown talking to a burnt bushfire victim and conjures walking corpses and Stephen King horror as portrayed by a 9-year-old.  I live with an actual graphic designer and have actual artist friends, all of whom are perfectly capable of doing quality work that is delightful to look at, or at least has a point... and this kind of "professional" work simply leaves me cold.  The lyric sheet looks like someone has sneezed all over it in technicolour, just yuck.  I've turned the cover back to front to improve the experience of picking this CD up off the shelf.  It's a good thing you can't judge a book by its cover.

Today I'd like to briefly tackle the Maybe Someday remix on Join The Dots CD-4, so I can clear the road for a post I've been planning for a while.  So here goes.

Music first.  I compared the acoustic remix to the Bloodflowers version by listening to both repeatedly in the past couple of weeks.  If I'd heard the acoustic version first, I'd still have liked it, but with the electric guitars it's just so much more powerful.  The acoustic version inspires reflection, the album version is like lift-off in a jet airliner - the same feeling of becoming airborne, of being hurled forwards and upwards.  Music really does do interesting things to one's brain, and has a visceral power not generally equalled by other forms of art.

Something that keeps me listening to The Cure - and there's lots of things that keep me listening to this band - is the tonal beauty of the guitars on a lot of pieces, this one included.  To come up with arresting melodies and textures is already a gift, but to have those things combined with exceptional beauty in the tone of the playing and the voices of the instruments is magnificent.  (The Loudest Sound, by the way, is a particularly good example of this.)

It seems to me that quite a few male musicians, especially in the "hard rock" end of the spectrum, play their guitars like they sing - really "rough and tough" with deliberately grating qualities, rather than beautifully - and I've never liked that.  Jimmy Barnes, for example, sings like he gargles with Drano before breakfast.  He's a lovely person in interviews, but this is just something many rock singers seem to do deliberately - a lot of heavy metal singers screech and sound generally constipated.  Not my thing.  It almost seems as if some people think you can't reconcile masculinity with anything remotely touching on beauty or gentleness or emotional expression, but if they do, they're wrong... It just seems there's a lot of insecure males in rock and heavy metal who like to present a tough front, and who posture in ways that look ridiculous to me.

I could also get into some weird, and tasteless, things some female performers do, and maybe one day I will, but right now I'd like to return to Maybe Someday.  Let's look at the lyrics:


MAYBE SOMEDAY

No, I won't do it again
I don't want to pretend
If it can't be like before
I've got to let it end
I don't want what I was
I had a change of head
But maybe someday
Yeah, maybe someday

I've got to let it go
And leave it gone
Just walk away
Stop it going on
Get too scared to jump
If I wait too long
But maybe someday

Yeah, I'll see you smile as you call my name
And start to feel and it feels the same
And I know that maybe someday's come
Maybe someday's come again

So tell me someday's come
Tell me someday come again

No I won't do it some more
Doesn't make any sense
If we can't be like it was
I've got to let it rest
I don't want what I did
I had a change of tense
But maybe someday

Yeah, I'll see you smile as you call my name
And start to feel and it feels the same
And I know that maybe someday's come
Maybe someday's come again

If I could do it again, maybe just once more
Think I could make it work like I did it before
If I could try it out, if I could just be sure
That maybe someday is the last time
Yeah, maybe someday is the end
Or maybe someday is when it all stops
Or maybe someday always comes again



I guess all of us have felt an ambivalence about the work we do at some point or another, or even quit things when they turned sour or tepid, so Robert Smith writing a song about ending his band or not, and the processes around that, is very relatable to other work scenarios where you care greatly about the quality of what you are doing, and things are getting in the way of it.  And I really did personally relate to that, because when I first heard this song in 2014, I'd recently gotten out of education after half a lifetime of having some of the best experiences in my life there - because it was getting harder and harder to do the same quality work, and have the same magic moments, without running into bureaucracy or having to sacrifice increasing amounts of your personal life to do it.

On the bureaucracy side, there was increasing interference with the way you could teach in a classroom - for example, when I started out, two out of four Science sessions a week were practical and hands-on for a class, and increasingly, the bureaucracy was making that harder for us, by allocating less funding to science equipment in favour of (unnecessary and annoying and really un-educational) IT in the classroom, and by banning certain types of experiment / demonstration for alleged "health and safety" reasons - like the banning of the super-popular sodium / potassium metal demonstrations (mini-fireworks when the teacher drops small amounts of metal into a basin of water - and indeed, that's the basis of fireworks) in some states of Australia, because one irresponsible teacher hadn't kept his eye on his metal containers, and an irresponsible student had stuck a lump of sodium metal in his pocket and ended up with a hole burnt right through him - you really have to be so daft and irresponsible as a teacher for that to happen, and not know how to safely run practical demonstrations - and the skilled majority ought not to be penalised for the act of one incompetent person who ought to have been sacked).

Or, the banning of the cheek smear practical that allowed 12-year-olds to look at their very own cells (always an oooh-aaah experience) - on the basis of what might happen if a student was infected with hepatitis etc and another student took the popstick they'd scraped the inside of their cheek with and for some god-unknown reason started chewing on it - I mean, have you ever seen a student do that?  I haven't, but I saw plenty of students in the playground sharing ice lollies, and they didn't ban that, so where's the sense in this?  It just doesn't exist, it's just ignorant bureaucrats covering their own backsides.  And in this way, towards the end of my years of teaching, I was down to one practical session a week, and disproportionate amounts of textbook learning, and that's not the same.  Student engagement and enjoyment were in this way actively boycotted by bureaucratic decisions beyond my control.

And then there was the experiment with OBE assessment in favour of ABCDF, because the bureaucrats thought that by making a system which didn't have a fail grade, only a "not achieved yet and still working on it", they would somehow change the reality that all of us are bad at something, and need to get over it.  In order to make an assessment and reporting system that candy-coated lack of achievement, they invented a system which was basically like levels on a video game - and life is not a video game.  This system took over four times as long for teachers to administrate, and confused the hell out of students and parents; and undermined student achievement by tying teachers up with unnecessary hours on complicated and wishy-washy assessments, which took time away from creative planning for actual learning activities (not to mention our personal lives - I was doing 60-hour weeks at the end and burning out) - as well as by students and parents actually not knowing where they stood in relation to everyone else.

So yeah, when you're in a position where you keep watching the quality of what you are able to do decline further and further despite throwing increasing amounts of your private, unpaid time at it, and you're watching whole cohorts of students not getting the same opportunities for learning as they did a decade previously, and when you started Australia used to be Top 5 internationally in Science achievement, and then they're not even Top 20 anymore despite the best efforts of Science staff who are increasingly hog-tied by bureaucrats, and when you're teaching English / English Literature classes you're seeing the level of language ability, grammar and spelling erode to further and further lows because the kids aren't learning what they used to in primary school (and because of overuse of IT and devices, both in the classroom, by the say-so of bureaucrats who want clever-looking classroom photos, and outside the classroom, I mean, whatever happened to a hands-on childhood, and the development of the imagination, let alone handwriting and real-world skills, don't get me started...) - well, you do come to a point where you're thinking of quitting, and for years what keeps you there still is that you love the magic that can happen in classrooms anyway.  I was basically forced to quit by burnout, in the end - coupled with viral damage to a vocal cord nerve, which meant I actually couldn't talk for a year - which is why we owner-built our own house etc, and I started homesteading and writing, and the rest is history.

But yes, I could completely relate to the sentiments in Maybe Someday, transposed into my own work situation.  I think Robert Smith should thank his lucky stars, or whatever he thanks, that he doesn't experience quite the degree of interference with his own creative work as a lot of people in salaried employment do.  Yes, I know that record companies suck, and that artists have a right to complain about that, and they totally have my sympathy, and I'm not playing "my pain is greater than yours" - just saying that The Cure have been able to go on producing quality work, and forever improving their live performances, in spite of all of that, and I'm happy for them, and for me, and all the other fans, that this is so.  :)

And as for me, away from bureaucracy (but of course, not all of it, there's layers of it even here), I'm happy with the life I now live, and the new creative and otherwise useful things I am now able to do, and for the past as well and the wonderful things that happened in it, and if there's anyone out there with whom all this has struck chords, all the best to you as well! :cool

Coming Up is next.  ;)
4
Other Artists / Re: Currently Listening to
Last post by piggymirror - January 18, 2020, 17:45:38
Quote from: BiscuityBoyle on January 17, 2020, 17:37:00György Kurtág, the last of the giants of 20th century avant-garde still alive today.

Brilliant.
5
Music and Lyrics / Re: Which Cure song are you li...
Last post by SueC - January 18, 2020, 04:48:33
Quote from: piggymirror on January 17, 2020, 17:08:13Where The Birds Always Sing came today as an earworm.

Please allow me to congratulate you on your high-quality earworm.  :cool
6
Something else / Re: Musical Technicalities & C...
Last post by SueC - January 18, 2020, 03:55:10
Quote from: Matti on January 17, 2020, 22:12:36That's gonna be fun, there's a lot of interesting info in what you write. As you spotted, I'm a guitar player (electric and acoustic), and I used to play some bass (standard as well as Bass VI).

Well, how nice to be able to talk to someone from the "electric universe." ;) Conversations with fellow nerds from other universes can be great fun - bring out all the jokes and anecdotes etc, while learning about how other people do stuff.  :cool


Quote from: undefinedWell, for guitars it depends on the machine heads' quality. There are special locking tuners available that provide extra string fixation to avoid tuning problems. With decent tuners installed, you can (or at least I can) play a guitar for quite a while without having to re-tune.

That seems to be a very useful option.  I swapped from a cheap starting-out violin to a reasonable quality one when I'd played enough years to know I would want to keep doing it - by the way, I'm an entirely recreational player with absolutely no interest in joining any sort of group.  Usually when I get the urge to do music with other people, I go to a choir for a while.  I took up violin in my late 20s to learn more about music and because I had the urge to produce notes rather than just hear them in my head - and I find it's actually an effective form of meditation, and one in which I don't feel like I am wasting my finite life span, because I am growing new neural connections and improving skills while doing that (and this does not happen nearly as much if I sit in lotus position concentrating on my breathing - and again, breathing is focused on in choir too while also having a lot of other wonderful things going on at the same time that simply don't happen in "normal" meditation).  My violin is just me-time and it was one thing where I was determined I wasn't going to get competitive or goal-orientated, I was simply going to enjoy playing it, and learning to do new things. :cool

When I met my husband, who enjoys hearing me practise (he says stringed instruments have a lovely warm tone), he encouraged me to buy a better violin (I have a resistance to spending money and he will wear down my resistance for me in cases where he thinks it's actually a really good idea), so I put a tax refund towards buying an Eastman with a really lovely tone.  And yes, it made it even more fun to practise, because it has such a nice voice, which just reverberates all through your chest when you're playing, because it's sitting on your collarbone etc (I don't think electric instruments would give you that effect, so maybe you should borrow a violin sometime!).

However, the tuning pegs were terribly slippery and I'd open up the case to find all the strings collapsed.  :1f62d:   It takes me a lot of time to tune back up from completely collapsed strings (and my teachers all do it within a minute or two, bwhahahaha).  I have long dispensed with a tuning fork and I use a guitar tuner, that has little lights that come on when you're getting within range, and it actually does a high beep at you when you've hit the note correctly.  :angel  ...at least it used to do that before I accidentally dropped it on the floor, and now I have to shake it a bit sometimes before it will work.  :-D

Anyway, those tuning pegs were killing me, and I didn't want to void the warranty by sandpapering the opposing surfaces to increase the friction, so I sent it back to the shop for them to do this instead.  Gradually, between that and a lot of cursing and fiddling around, the pegs have worn in to a reasonably acceptable standard.  But, I kind of salivate when I hear about systems to make the tuning pegs moor better...


Quote from: undefinedBut as you suppose, it all depends on how you play, and what instrument you're using. The same goes for bendings. As I wrote, some players will bend their strings up a fourth, whereas I don't get past a minor third. After all we're talking about steel strings - and physical pain.

Yeah, haha - a violin E-string is like cheese wire.   :-D   I'm pretty sure you guys approach the strings more at an angle than we do - we have to get as perpendicular as possible with ours - so extra-short fingernails on the left hand that you have to file down to nothing every second day if you're playing, and you're supposed to hit the string 1-2 mm away from your fingernail, and that's very sensitive because there's loads of nerves in your fingertips.  So I remember saying to my teacher in the first week or two, "Are you kidding me?"  :1f631: G, D, A are reasonably OK (although they too will blister a beginner), but the E, OMG... The E, apart from being so thin, is also the only solid-metal string on a standard violin stringing job - G, D, A are nylon wrapped in metal (and you can play the metal off to the point it unwinds, and then you replace the string - you can always hear it when the metal starts unwinding, because suddenly it's making some little bonus sounds you've not asked for...)

Anyway, the only way to deal with all that is to go through the "play till sore, rest the skin a few days, repeat until sufficiently callused" and then not take overlong breaks from playing, because otherwise you're nearly back to square one. (I have been known to put a thin layer of superglue on my index fingertip in an emergency...)


QuoteRe-tuning btw is nothing unusual in rock shows I think. Again, you're on the right track:
Quote from: undefinedit's a soundless process, or is it because they just change guitars and then someone out the back re-tunes it before its next use?
Players can do it themselves using tuning devices on their pedalboard (which usually mute the signal), or just delegate it to the stage hands.

That's interesting about the on-stage DIY tuning!  :cool

Because acoustic instruments always make sounds when being tuned, I've been to a few shows now where someone in the ensemble will make the old joke, "And the next piece we're going to play for you is a little Chinese piece called Tu-Ning."  :lol:


QuoteWell, vibrato bridges are constructed in a way that they ideally retain their original position when you don't touch them.

That sounds very sensible. It really is interesting to discover nitty-gritty things like that. :cool


QuoteYou kinda answered each question by asking the other ;)
Of course you can slide on any guitar, but there's a special kind of slide guitars that are played while sitting in front of them, or having them on your lap, with a rather high string action. These have indeed no real frets, but they are printed on the fingerboards as orientation points.

When people begin violin, their teacher usually puts paper tape against the underside of the fingerboard, near where the thumb goes in first position, so that the student has something to orient themselves by while starting out.  It helps you maintain a consistent thumb position, and from there you've got something to relate your finger positions back to.  Half the fun as a violin beginner (and most of the torture for bystanders) is learning to find the notes... hooray, I nearly had it this time!  :lol:


QuoteJust to be sure, I didn't mean the official Paris album, but a bootleg recording from the Swing Tour. I think it's up on YouTube, and it's an excellent soundboard recording, well worth a listen.

Yeah, this morning Brett was saying to me, "But Plainsong isn't on Paris, you know!"  :-D  (He's been a Cure fan much longer than me, and these were originally in his collection.)  I shall look up the versions suggested on YouTube - thank you!  :smth023


QuoteYou're not alone (telling 6-string bass from "normal" guitar), it's difficult, unless you exactly know what instruments the players use. There's two main differences: scale length, and string dimensions. But that's really hard to spot from a video, or someone who's standing on a stage. I remember watching Show over and over again, and wondering how the f**k Robert managed to play those notes for, say, Pictures of You way above the 12th fret... "That surely should sound different!?"

One thing that learning to play an instrument has done for me is to stratospherically increase my appreciation of other people's music.  Until you've tried something like that yourself, there's a whole world of complexities you're not really aware of - and reading about such things would not bring that home to you the same way as engaging with that physically yourself, even if only at a fairly basic level.  It has completely changed the way I listen to music.  I hear a lot more, and I'm a lot more aware of the years of effort players put in to be able to do certain things that some listeners don't even really hear, because they're not deconstructing it as much in their heads as they hear it, etc.  I enjoy music even more now because of it - it's like wearing goggles while skindiving, as opposed to just opening your eyes underwater.   :cool


QuoteAs for the G string jokes, I'm sure they're familiar to guitarists as well. Also, keep an eye on the number of "R"s in the above-mentioned vibrato. ;)

Like, "Pirates playing guitars?"  Arrrrrrrrr.  ;)

(...and yes, I did eventually get your joke, bwahaha.  It's just that the comparative lack of pollution in my mind means I have to think about things like this.  :winking_tongue)

I have a really good G-string anecdote, and am looking for more stories like that... :) 

When I'd just started, in the late '90s, a senior colleague and I were sitting in an otherwise empty staffroom during a free period that had to double as lunch because we'd been busy with duty etc.  She'd been playing for half a year and was a bit ahead of me.  Now Penny was from the art department, which is one of the reasons we became friends.  So we were discussing our woeful early efforts at trying to get our heads around violin, and she has comparatively short fingers and was saying, "I really have trouble getting my fingers around that G-string."  And just at that very moment, Bob from Science walked in.  I have to describe the people to you so you can picture it - Bob was like a big teddy-bear of a guy, heading for 60 and just so nice.  Penny was nearly 50 and a totally solid citizen type, and very arty - she does lovely paintings etc.  And Bob's jaw just dropped to the ground.  I realised why and just couldn't stop laughing.  :rofl

Later that year, we had a Friday the 13th party, cross-department.  Humorous awards were being handed out, and I'd organised a few myself.  My favourite was the one I'd made for Penny:  I'd actually gone to a shop and bought a lacy G-string. :1f633: I'm not a fan of that sort of underwear myself, because why would you sign up for a permanent wedgie?  :'(   There were certificates to go with the awards, so she got the "Violin Player's G-String Award" from me, to enthusiastic crowd applause as I was formally handing over her certificate and new underwear. :angel

She thanked me with an undertone.  :beaming-face  We've been reminding each other periodically for two decades and it's still funny, and thankfully, not just to me... :)


QuoteI've never met someone who plays violin. I loved that identity crisis remark about violas. And for your "attacking style with the bow", isn't that what the world loves about Apocalyptica?  :happy

Yeah, I love their version of One.   :heart-eyes   Headbanging with classical instruments!  :cool  I actually think the tune is much improved by Apocalyptica's treatment - it gets my "Best Cover Of All Time" award, I think.   :smth023  I'd never have started playing violin just from casual acquaintance with classical radio stations.  It was Irish folk violin that got me into it - I already liked Celtic music and had gone to see Riverdance.  It was the first 30 seconds of music on the following clip that determined me - the little lilts in it just made my heart stop:


...and I was going, "You can do that on a violin?  You mean it doesn't just have to be an annoying thing going eeeeek-eeeeek in the back of an orchestra?"  And of course I was a total ignoramus.  There's actually so much mind-blowing music for violin, including in classical music - I'd just never heard any! :)  Isn't music great?

So what made you take up guitars?  :cool

PS:  And don't be shy to jump in, @jestoon425 or anyone else.  :)  My current showpiece is What Shall We Do WIth The Drunken Sailor, with a bit of simple double stopping - and I really do need to get back into regular practice to get back to the level I was playing at when I was last at lessons (which wasn't far above the Drunken Sailor - just Suzuki Volume II and various jigs and reels and odd things).  That was before we decided to become smallholders and build our own house with our own hands nearly ten years ago.  Life can get in the way.  I'm still not advanced enough for The Countess Cathleen, but that would make a nice goal for a conscientious re-start... to finally learn to play the thing that made me take up the instrument in the first place! ;)  (And thank goodness it wasn't one of Paganini's 24 Caprices!)  It doesn't matter how basic you think your musical skills are, you've every right to be in this conversation, and clearly people who pursue this kind of thing as adults are doing it because they have a passion for music, not because their parents are making them! :)

This is the kind of thing that started getting me really excited in the Suzuki course, when I finally got to Volume 2.  You too can play a simple piece of Paganini! I love the feel of this piece, and the acrobatics required to play it.  This one pushed me, and I loved every minute of it.  You spend 6 hours straight working on it just so you can get a reasonably flowing rendition, and you completely forget to have lunch.  Disclaimer:  The person in this clip is clearly not me!  :lol:


...and this is Paganini's 24 Caprices, which clearly is light years over and above that level:


It tends to be acrobatics and showing off over and above aesthetics, but go to 1:02:43 to hear something really beautiful as well... :heart-eyes
7
Something else / Re: Musical Technicalities & C...
Last post by Matti - January 17, 2020, 22:12:36
That's gonna be fun, there's a lot of interesting info in what you write. As you spotted, I'm a guitar player (electric and acoustic), and I used to play some bass (standard as well as Bass VI).

QuoteIf I tried Option 1 on my violin (unnecessary as there are no frets), I'd be forever re-tuning it and that would drive me up the wall. Then again, the wooden pegs for the rough tuning have a tendency to slip significantly under excessive tension; perhaps the equivalents on guitars are a little more solidly engineered?
Well, for guitars it depends on the machine heads' quality. There are special locking tuners available that provide extra string fixation to avoid tuning problems. With decent tuners installed, you can (or at least I can) play a guitar for quite a while without having to re-tune. But as you suppose, it all depends on how you play, and what instrument you're using. The same goes for bendings. As I wrote, some players will bend their strings up a fourth, whereas I don't get past a minor third. After all we're talking about steel strings - and physical pain.

Re-tuning btw is nothing unusual in rock shows I think. Again, you're on the right track:
Quoteit's a soundless process, or is it because they just change guitars and then someone out the back re-tunes it before its next use?
Players can do it themselves using tuning devices on their pedalboard (which usually mute the signal), or just delegate it to the stage hands.

Quoteif my violin bridge moved a millimetre I'd be having to tune everything back up from scratch! 
Well, vibrato bridges are constructed in a way that they ideally retain their original position when you don't touch them.

QuoteSo, what are sliding guitars?  (And are there any non-bass guitars that don't have any frets on their fingerboards?)
You kinda answered each question by asking the other ;)
Of course you can slide on any guitar, but there's a special kind of slide guitars that are played while sitting in front of them, or having them on your lap, with a rather high string action. These have indeed no real frets, but they are printed on the fingerboards as orientation points.

QuoteI'll have a listen for the doubled-up versions - we've got Paris.
Just to be sure, I didn't mean the official Paris album, but a bootleg recording from the Swing Tour. I think it's up on YouTube, and it's an excellent soundboard recording, well worth a listen.

QuoteI can't visually tell a 6-string bass from a "normal" electric guitar - any pointers?
You're not alone, it's difficult, unless you exactly know what instruments the players use. There's two main differences: scale length, and string dimensions. But that's really hard to spot from a video, or someone who's standing on a stage. I remember watching Show over and over again, and wondering how the f**k Robert managed to play those notes for, say, Pictures of You way above the 12th fret... "That surely should sound different!?"

As for the G string jokes, I'm sure they're familiar to guitarists as well. Also, keep an eye on the number of "R"s in the above-mentioned vibrato. ;)

I've never met someone who plays violin. I loved that identity crisis remark about violas. And for your "attacking style with the bow", isn't that what the world loves about Apocalyptica?  :happy
8
Other Artists / Re: Currently Listening to
Last post by BiscuityBoyle - January 17, 2020, 17:37:00
György Kurtág, the last of the giants of 20th century avant-garde still alive today.

9
Music and Lyrics / Re: Which Cure song are you li...
Last post by piggymirror - January 17, 2020, 17:08:13
Where The Birds Always Sing came today as an earworm.
10
Other Artists / Re: Currently Listening to
Last post by piggymirror - January 17, 2020, 17:03:10
Brian Eno - The Shutov Assembly
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