The Jokela school shooting

Janko · September 24, 2008, 04:50:46

Terrible news!
The guy managed to kill nine people!!!

:x

Quote from: dsanchez on September 23, 2008, 21:10:11
video from the shooter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
how this can happen again? really something to worry about jb :(

Again with the YouTube videos...

This might become the newest fad!

melly · September 24, 2008, 11:22:09

and now, after the second such event in just a year, the prime minister is going to review that country's gun laws.... kind of shutting the gate after the horse has bolted...more innocent people shot down by a young person with a gun.... let's hope this time there is action re the gun laws in this country..allowing 15 year olds to have a gun? what sort of madness is that?..... so, so sad....

sues777 · September 24, 2008, 11:32:25

This is truly horrible news...My heart goes out to all the families and friends who lost loved ones.
What more has to happen before something changes?

dsanchez · September 24, 2008, 14:49:35

Bad news are always in bigger letters. Peruvian largest newspapper "El Comercio" about the shooting:

http://www.elcomercio.com.pe/EdicionImpresa/diarios/20080924/ecpr240908a1.jpg

"Serán los próximos en morir"... y mató a 10 = "You will die next"... and he killed 10.

In small letters its written that finnish police arrested him one day before and let him free :shock:s

jb, what mesures are going to take the politicians about this matter? It's so easy in Finland to get weapons like in the US? :(

scatcat · September 24, 2008, 18:23:28

.. my heart goes out to those involved and traumatised by this event.. of course, my initial thought was J.B. okay? , and was it related to her ..

I hope that guns will be banned and traded in, like we have here in OZ.. :!:

P.S. : David.. that picture of the gunman pointing straight at the screen is very, very threatening.. I hate anyone pointing, let alone, a gun towards me. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THIS CAN BE REMOVED.. ?

thanks in advance.

scatcat

japanesebaby · September 24, 2008, 18:43:49

Quote from: melly on September 24, 2008, 11:22:09
allowing 15 year olds to have a gun? what sort of madness is that?.....

Quote from: dsanchez on September 24, 2008, 14:49:35
It's so easy in Finland to get weapons like in the US? :(

no, it's not at all like in the US. yes, it's true that a 15-year old can get a license to use a gun here but only under parent's supervision/permission. 15-year olds that have gun licenses are for instance members of some hunting clubs, owning a right to use a hunting rifle under supervision. or members of some sport clubs (after all, shooting is an olympic sport too...).
so it's not at all like it the US: nobody here can just walk into a store and buy any gun he/she wants. can't happen. you always do need to apply a license from the police and the police are obliged to personally meet and interview every person who is applying for a gun license.
but still, these things happen... so i suppose even if it's not so easy to get a gun, those who are really determined to get one will also find a way. how do you stop such people? by making laws? madmen don't respect the laws...
so it's not just about making tighter laws: i think we should start paying attention to why people feel such anger, what makes them do such things? what makes them feel so bad? what's wrong in our society? we need to start paying more attention to mental healthcare and stuff like this. just passing tighter gun laws won't do the same.

there's been a new gun law under works for quite some time, a tighter one. i think this will press it onwards now - and there is talk that it might now become completely illegal for a private individual person to own a hand gun her at all.

but what is really sad here is that the police actually did know about this guy and interviewed him just one day before the shooting. some people had reported the videos the guy put on youtube (which shows that the general public is alert - which is good). the kauhajoki police called for this guy for an interview - but they let him walk. why? was it a mistake? of course it was. but it's not entirely clear what happened there. the shooter himself removed some of the worst shooting videos from his youtube account before the police interview so the local police that interviewd(questioned him didn't necessarily realize all that was in there.
i'm not defending the police who let him walk because obviously they did a horrible mistake. but madmen are known to be clever and fool others - so perhaps he was clever and kept it cool and managed to act his way throughout the interview, without noone really noticing. i don't know. it's still quite unclear all that went on there, in those police interviews.

but it's ridiculous that there were SO many similarities between this guy and the jokela shooter, for instance in all those videos that this shooter made - and still the police let him walk.... the recent news (discovered after the shooting) show that this new shooter was very likely to have been in contact with the jokela shooter.
so of course the police should have been alarmed by this and acted and taken his gun license away from him right away!

scatcat · September 24, 2008, 18:51:41

I am glad that u are okay J.B.

japanesebaby · September 24, 2008, 19:08:35

thanks scatcat.
i'm fine, but i suppose it's been pretty depressing in general, such low spirits all around. shocked disbelief everywhere, especially among the students. and that's not good.
just imagining how it's there in kauhajoki: because it's a really small place, population just something like 15,000 or so...
it's really tough for such a small community to find a way to deal with such a bad thing.

dsanchez · September 24, 2008, 19:38:30

Quote from: scatcat on September 24, 2008, 18:23:28
I hate anyone pointing, let alone, a gun towards me. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THIS CAN BE REMOVED.. ?

Not possible. At least 250 000 of this newspapper is circulating in Peru, not to mention the other thousands on the Internet (!!)

Now if you mean the particular image I inserted, I think the best thing to deal with these kind of freaks is facing them. Don't you?

melly · September 26, 2008, 04:10:22

I think publishing this murderous bastards' face here is so very wrong David. As you stated, it's in all the newspapers, on the TV and links are provided for those who want to have a look. To have the photograph of him, gun pointed, on a music based fan site is so wrong on so many levels. The lack of respect to the members here, who do NOT want to be confronted with such an image, but more importantly, it is a lack of respect for the many people who were slain by this deranged human being, their families and the community where this occured. He has gained notoriety through the press, his cruel image plastered everywhere. People may filter through this thread, to pass on condolences, to catch up on any news JB may have, or to discuss the tragedy of it all. To see that picture is gut wrenching and highly confrontational to anyone with a decorum of humanity.
Your flippant retort to scatcat blew me away. This is NOT about a fear of spiders, heights or escalators. This is a human tragedy, which affects people in many different ways.When I saw him there, the barrel of his gun pointed, it turned my stomach and made me shiver. Many, many people will be horrified and frightened by that image, and I, for one, request that you remove it immediately. Saying "the best way to deal with these freaks is to face them" is so out of context in this situation, and I am shocked to hear that coming from you.
A murderer has no place in this forum David, and you should not subject your members to the picture of this evil, deranged man. Let them go to the links everywhere if they really want to view that picture.
Sorry David, but this time, you are so very, very wrong.

japanesebaby · September 26, 2008, 07:18:37

Quote from: melly on September 26, 2008, 04:10:22
I think publishing this murderous bastards' face here is so very wrong David. As you stated, it's in all the newspapers, on the TV and links are provided for those who want to have a look. To have the photograph of him, gun pointed, on a music based fan site is so wrong on so many levels. The lack of respect to the members here, who do NOT want to be confronted with such an image, but more importantly, it is a lack of respect for the many people who were slain by this deranged human being, their families and the community where this occured.

actually i agree with david. the only way to deal with these things is to face them, in one way another. hiding from them and/or putting them away from our minds (to help ourselves to feel better) is not a solution.
and since it's in all newspapers already, it's all around - what difference does it make to post it here? the context is what matters, not the pic itself. and the context here is a healthy one. nobody glorifies this shooter here.

a psychiarist said on a tv last night something very true: she said that the worst thing to do is to remain silent, not to talk about and trying to shut it out of your mind. that is how fear starts growing, suspicion towards others. and the bad thing about fear is that it's contagious. it starts spreading. and once it's on the move, it's difficult to stop. so the most important thing now is not to remain silent.
i agree with that completely. for those people who actually had to go through that shooting experience themselves it must be the most painful thing, to go back to those memories and face them again - but it's also the only way to heal. for us who weren't even there it's also just as important to keep the images in our mind now, not to push them back. because we need to work for a better community where this sort of things would not have to happen. and therefore if we want to work for it, it is most important for everyone to face the incident, try to understand why it happened (if we can). that's part of the whole community's/society's healing process.
i don't agree posting a pic outright means showing lack of respect to the victims - it completely depends on what sort of context you post such a pic. and at least i see no no-respect/ill context here.

just my two cents. actually i don't want to promote this discussion since imo we should all rather talk about the incident and it's effects, not focus on sidetracks such as whether it's ok to post some (already widely published pic!) here or not. we must remember we were not the ones who suffered form this awful thing - other people did. what we can do is try to promote the awareness, so that it would not happen again. therefore discussion is necessary and it must be openly allowed. we not hide our heads in the bushes if something ugly comes our way - that's letting the ugly things win.
but whatever we all say or write here: everyone has the right and a reason to his/her thoughts and feelings. you and me.
at least let's not turn this into another just another quarrel. let's keep an open mind.

dsanchez · September 26, 2008, 10:23:47

Quote from: melly on September 26, 2008, 04:10:22
A murderer has no place in this forum David, and you should not subject your members to the picture of this evil, deranged man. Let them go to the links everywhere if they really want to view that picture.
Sorry David, but this time, you are so very, very wrong.

This topic is about a masacre, which includes both the victims and the hitman. I wonder what's the difference between posting a newspapper frontpage (and by the way "El Comercio" is the most serious and respected newspapper in Peru) and placing a link to the youtube video of the hitman. No-one said nothing about that link.

If someone feels disturbed by a newspapper frontpage then scroll down the page or don't read this topic and problem solved. Sorry but I don't see why to make problems for this. We're talking about a masacre, so let's see who caused that.

People who feel affected for this picture maybe should edit the Wikipedia article were a photo of the hitman is shown as well :roll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Saari_internet_video.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_shooting_incident

(and maybe complain about the thousands of blogs and websites who did the "terrible mistake" of publishing a murderer's pic)

revolt · September 26, 2008, 10:53:08

I just would like to say a few very general things that might be related to this. Maybe they are too obvious, but I'll just say them anyway...

First: "evil" is in ALL of us. That power to destroy is born with us and remains with us until we die.

Second: "good" is also in all of us.

Third: in a healthy human being both these two features are balanced, so that neither is strong enough to completely destroy the other (yes, this means that a human being who is totally "good" - if such a thing is possible, anyway - is also a sick human being).

Fourth: the way our societies are organized does more to promote the "evil" in us than the "good".

It's no wonder that tragedies happen. They will continue to happen and most probably it will only get worse...

melly · September 26, 2008, 11:30:15

Quote from: dsanchez on September 26, 2008, 10:23:47
(and maybe complain about the thousands of blogs and websites who did the "terrible mistake" of publishing a murderer's pic)

that is my point...people can go to those sites and peer at him... and go to all the links provided here there and everywhere if they really, really need to see this guy and his gun, I have already said that..but, don't worry about it, you just don't get what I'm saying.
Yes,people do need to discuss and be so very aware of situations like this, it shreds my heart to think of the innocent lives lost.
Just because people do not want to see that picture, doesn't mean they don't care, deeply.
We at least can have the choice of looking or not looking at him, unlike his victims...

scatcat · September 26, 2008, 18:25:45

.. the reason why I asked for the article's picture with the gunman pointing the gun directly, is personal. I have had a gun pointed at me. It is traumatic.

I can understand where both David & J.B. are coming from, about the links etc.. If I had wanted to see them, I would have CHOSEN to: I did not. I am not hiding, or being ignorant.. I am just asking for the image to be removed. I find it unnecessary. We all have heard what he has done.