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something that started in another topic http://curefans.com/index.php/topic,1127.msg53102.html#msg53102
where mahood said:

Quote from: mahood on June 29, 2008, 01:52:33
and there's actually another digressing option in the discussion you started : great lyrics versus poor music & vice versa.
or when the combination of both doesn't work (RS said that about snow in summer, a song i really like btw).
& i happen to like jupiter crash both lyrically & musically, too.
strangely, as much as i dislike wendy time on wish, i love the 5 imaginary boys & demo versions, but maybe the lyrics don't fit on these (well, they do, on a strictly melodic point of view). here i can understand why they would change the music so drastically, but then it's just a crappy song, where there was a great one.

i thought this might be an interetsing topic on its own.
so, what other combinations/impressions like this - what do you think?

i've always thought that 'all cats are grey' is a combination that doesn't somehow work (for me, at least). there're definitely some great lyrics there and not bad music either - but...
i used to listen to it before i really read through/understood the words and got to know the song by the music, created an impression of it pretty much through music only. i simply didn't pay attention to the words at all at that point. then i looked into the words and i was really surprised to find how great contradiction there was, between the two. musically i think it's somehow a very "comfortable" song: calm, with "cool temperatures" but no desolation or hopelessness... and yet the lyrics must be one of the most desolate ones you can find among the cure songs.
i never became completely familiar the combination and although i do not think the song is a failure because of this, it has always somehow vexed me - like i'm not sure what robert was really trying to say there.

Quote from: japanesebaby on June 30, 2008, 19:51:08


i've always thought that 'all cats are grey' is a combination that doesn't somehow work (for me, at least). there're definitely some great lyrics there and not bad music either - but...
i used to listen to it before i really read through/understood the words and got to know the song by the music, created an impression of it pretty much through music only. i simply didn't pay attention to the words at all at that point. then i looked into the words and i was really surprised to find how great contradiction there was, between the two. musically i think it's somehow a very "comfortable" song: calm, with "cool temperatures" but no desolation or hopelessness... and yet the lyrics must be one of the most desolate ones you can find among the cure songs.
i never became completely familiar the combination and although i do not think the song is a failure because of this, it has always somehow vexed me - like i'm not sure what robert was really trying to say there.

Well, lyrics on "All Cats are Grey" are somewhat cryptic, but I think they probably relate to a dream of sorts... a desolate dream, that is. Anyway, i agree that the music is CALM but also think that it is very melancholic, although in a soft, understated way. So I actually think that it all fits together: music, voice and lyrics are all subdued and all convey a subtle feeling of sadness.

One example of unbalanced combination of music/lyrics is "The Promise", I think. The music is trippy, based on a groovy bassline that slowly builds and builds, but lyrics are too whiney in this context. And not particularly creative.

This is a shame because musically "The Promise", though not revolutionary, is kind of a new thing for The Cure: it cannot really be called DARK or MOODY or ROMANTIC or AGGRESSIVE or any word that you usually use to describe "serious" Cure songs. It's just a laidback groove that eventually grows to massive proportions simply by increasing the intensity of the playing...

'In Between Days' is another example of unbalance, I think. OK, in this case we have a pop song with pop lyrics, so in a way you can say that they fit... But it's such a contagious pop song that you wished Robert had put more effort in writing the lyrics. It just seems that he wrote the first rhymes that sprang to mind... Here's a particularly "good" example:

come back come back
don't walk away
come back come back
come back today
come back come back
why can't you see?
come back come back
come back to me

This sort of lazy lyrics was something you could not find in Cures songs prior to 1985. Even the most poppy silly ditties had some clever or otherwise creative verses...

So What? is great example  :lol:
lyrics total out and music is fantastic  :P

Quote from: japanesebaby on June 30, 2008, 19:51:08
i've always thought that 'all cats are grey' is a combination that doesn't somehow work (for me, at least). there're definitely some great lyrics there and not bad music either - but...
i used to listen to it before i really read through/understood the words and got to know the song by the music, created an impression of it pretty much through music only. i simply didn't pay attention to the words at all at that point.

i cannot count how many songs i have listened to without understanding a thing, starting with in between days & close to me, the first songs i heard on the radio.
and i learned english with the cure, because i wanted to understand the words - it was with disintegration. and i could, even partially, translate them. but then, when i started to translate faith & pornography, some songs just spoke &?/!¨°)- to me. and all cats are grey still does, so i cannot even feel there is a bad combination there. i mean, i just hear "columns", and "cave", and "cats", and "sing along", some words sung just to put some atmosphere in it. ambient words.

Quote from: revolt on July 01, 2008, 16:38:12
come back come back
come back come back
come back come back
come back come back

yes, but still, there is something that you won't find in, say, the only one : the lyrics (as simple as they may sound) don't quite fit the music : this is what the cure does best, and actually, when thinking about unbalanced combinations, i realised how many there where, but in a perfect way. just like heaven wouldn't be like this if the lines said only "so so so happy, the sun is so shiny".
this is why i never liked friday i'm in love, mint car, and so on. perfect combinations maybe, boring ones certainly, and definitely not the best singles.

i was thinking of another example of a strange combination : closedown. musically, it's close to sort of a twisted ballad, but still a ballad. it took me years to accept how you could sing such words on this, and now i cannot think of this song being different. this combination is amazing.

Quote from: mint car on July 01, 2008, 20:44:59
So What? is great example  :lol:
lyrics total out and music is fantastic  :P

English is my native language and I still couldn't understand half of those lyrics :( Except for "December Nineteen sevennnnnnty niiiiiine!"

So What is about delicious cake. Im not even kidding.

And i really dont feel that Inbetween Days is a good example of unbalance. Its a very simple melody so very simple lyrics fit very well.

Quote from: KingOfSomeIsland on July 04, 2008, 08:55:18

And i really dont feel that Inbetween Days is a good example of unbalance. Its a very simple melody so very simple lyrics fit very well.

Yeah, but the music is simple AND inspired, whereas the lyrics are simple AND kind of ordinary. That's the unbalance.

Quote from: firecrasher on July 03, 2008, 21:04:29

Quote from: mint car on July 01, 2008, 20:44:59
So What? is great example  :lol:
lyrics total out and music is fantastic  :P

English is my native language and I still couldn't understand half of those lyrics :( Except for "December Nineteen sevennnnnnty niiiiiine!"

Well, here they are, in all their silly glory:


Cake icing and decorating set
Special offer!
Only £3.30!
Save £1.52 on recommended retail price!
Give your cakes and pies a professional look
With this superb decorating set...

I'm not meant to be here
But so what?
Nobody's taken your place
Nobody's taken your place

Each set includes
A turntable
A nine inch icing bag
With six high definition nozzles and adaptor
And a fifteen inch inch food decorating bag
With three piping nozzles!
Please send off this leaflet
Post it today...

And if you knew
Nothing could replace you
If you were sane
Your heart wouldn't ache
But so what?
So what?
So what?

Order now!
Allow twenty-one days for delivery

The offer closes 31st December 1979...

British sugar bureau...
When I told you what I...
And I...
And I wouldn't ask you to pretend
That we were one
And still another time...

Forget all the lies
Forgive me the wounds
And all the world was used to love...
And yes!
We'd still be happy in another time...
But so what?

So please send me icing and decorating sets
I enclose a cheque and postal order number...

So what?
So what?


:-D

I love the fact that you can hear the sugar packet being crumpled up and thrown out after the last "soooo whaaaaaat?"  :-D

Quote from: firecrasher on July 04, 2008, 21:39:12
I love the fact that you can hear the sugar packet being crumpled up and thrown out after the last "soooo whaaaaaat?"  :-D

I love this song. Every time when I hear this song I laugh so much :lol: Robert, you know perfectly to improvise  :smth023

....If you could go back and change one thing about the original formation of the band, what would it be?

Quote from: firecrasher on July 04, 2008, 21:39:12
I love the fact that you can hear the sugar packet being crumpled up and thrown out after the last "soooo whaaaaaat?"  :-D

(http://www.versionke.com/2005/SoWhat.jpg)
PLEASE SEND ME ICING AND DECORATING SETS :D

Quote from: KingOfSomeIsland on July 07, 2008, 06:32:20

Quote from: firecrasher on July 04, 2008, 21:39:12
I love the fact that you can hear the sugar packet being crumpled up and thrown out after the last "soooo whaaaaaat?"  :-D

(http://www.versionke.com/2005/SoWhat.jpg)
PLEASE SEND ME ICING AND DECORATING SETS :D

There goes the Robert-is-so-good-at-improvising myth...  :-D

back to on-topic:

Quote from: mahood on July 02, 2008, 02:03:29
yes, but still, there is something that you won't find in, say, the only one : the lyrics (as simple as they may sound) don't quite fit the music : this is what the cure does best, and actually, when thinking about unbalanced combinations, i realised how many there where, but in a perfect way. just like heaven wouldn't be like this if the lines said only "so so so happy, the sun is so shiny".
this is why i never liked friday i'm in love, mint car, and so on. perfect combinations maybe, boring ones certainly, and definitely not the best singles.

i was thinking of another example of a strange combination : closedown. musically, it's close to sort of a twisted ballad, but still a ballad. it took me years to accept how you could sing such words on this, and now i cannot think of this song being different. this combination is amazing.

a very good point - i think mahood really hits the nail in the head here. :!:
what often makes the cure songs to rise above the rest is of course first their pure musical values/strenght but secondly it's the tingling contradiction that the music & the lyrics combine. and that's not the same as having (accidentally) unbalanced combinations.

i totally agree about 'inbetween days' and 'just like heaven' being superior to somehting like 'friday...', 'the only one' in this respect.
'inbetween days' is not unbalanced - it would be actually much more ordinary if it had some "typical" happy lyrics.

one reason why i actually like simply reading through the cure lyrics sometimes (without listening to the music) is because it allows you to see this even more clearly. just try it out: read the lyrics to 'inbetween days' and really try to forget how the music is like. then imagine what sort of musical imagery the lyrics like:
yesterday i got so old i felt like i could DIE

would inspire in you? and just dwell in that for a while... and then go back and re-add the music...
(or, why not do it the other way round and try to listen to the song without paying any attention to the lyrics.)
in any case, i think one is bound to find that the effect that this combination creates is really something unique. it's something very clever and very well thought of, something that really enhances the power of these songs.

(but still, i don't take back what i said about 'all cats...'. ;) in that case i always thought it really didn't work quite as well. just my opinion, though).

even 'lovesong' is an example of this: just read the

Quote from: japanesebaby on July 10, 2008, 15:56:30

just try it out: read the lyrics to 'inbetween days' and really try to forget how the music is like. then imagine what sort of musical imagery the lyrics like:
yesterday i got so old i felt like i could DIE

would inspire in you? and just dwell in that for a while... and then go back and re-add the music...
(or, why not do it the other way round and try to listen to the song without paying any attention to the lyrics.)
in any case, i think one is bound to find that the effect that this combination creates is really something unique. it's something very clever and very well thought of, something that really enhances the power of these songs.

I think I get your point, but the fact is that the line "yesterday i got so old i felt like i could die" is immediately followed by "yesterday I got so old it made me want to cry"... See? Lazy rhyming! And right after that:

Go on go on
Just walk away
Your choice is made
Go on go on
And disappear
Go on go on
Away from here


I think that if you're reading these lyrics without knowing the music you probably get the feeling that this is not a "serious" song, because not much thought has gone into writing such words. Yeah, there is a curious contrast between the "down" lyrics and the uplifting music, but at the end of the day it is all just pop nonsense... (  :-D )

Quote from: revolt on July 10, 2008, 16:14:22
I think I get your point, but the fact is that the line "yesterday i got so old i felt like i could die" is immediately followed by "yesterday I got so old it made me want to cry"... See? Lazy rhyming! And right after that:

Go on go on
Just walk away
Your choice is made
Go on go on
And disappear
Go on go on
Away from here


I think that if you're reading these lyrics without knowing the music you probably get the feeling that this is not a "serious" song, because not much thought has gone into writing such words. Yeah, there is a curious contrast between the "down" lyrics and the uplifting music, but at the end of the day it is all just pop nonsense... (  :-D )

well, i have to disagree. i think what you call "lazy rhyming" is actually something very conscious - it's consciously slightly dumb, slightly awkward - which again enhances the impression by adding a thirdt dimension: uplifting music, desperate lyrics but written desperate in a hopelessly simple way, without being at all profound about it. the certain kind of dumbness with simple rhyimes gives you a strong impression of the "main character" (if one wants to use such an movie-oriented term in a pop song).
because think of it this way: just when did robert stumble and somehow accidentally made a whole album full of dumb silly rhymes? he never did. so when he writes something i think he writes stuff very consciously.
imo everything on 'nbetween days' fits perfectly - still that's not the same as saying it's my all-time favorite song. it's not. but that's a completely different thing to discuss.


what comes to it all being "just pop nonsense"? well, of course it is. all pop music qualifies for that, at the end of the day, if one just chooses to take that approach...

but even then, i challenge it that one could seriously say 'inbetween days' is pop nonsense the very same way that something like britney spears is pop nonsense - there's the world of difference there, anyway.)

Quote from: japanesebaby on July 10, 2008, 16:31:36

Quote from: revolt on July 10, 2008, 16:14:22
I think I get your point, but the fact is that the line "yesterday i got so old i felt like i could die" is immediately followed by "yesterday I got so old it made me want to cry"... See? Lazy rhyming! And right after that:

Go on go on
Just walk away
Your choice is made
Go on go on
And disappear
Go on go on
Away from here


I think that if you're reading these lyrics without knowing the music you probably get the feeling that this is not a "serious" song, because not much thought has gone into writing such words. Yeah, there is a curious contrast between the "down" lyrics and the uplifting music, but at the end of the day it is all just pop nonsense... (  :-D )

well, i have to disagree. i think what you call "lazy rhyming" is actually something very conscious - it's consciously slightly dumb, slightly awkward - which again enhances the impression by adding a thirdt dimension: uplifting music, desperate lyrics but written desperate in a hopelessly simple way, without being at all profound about it. the certain kind of dumbness with simple rhyimes gives you a strong impression of the "main character" (if one wants to use such an movie-oriented term in a pop song).
because think of it this way: just when did robert stumble and somehow accidentally made a whole album full of dumb silly rhymes? he never did. so when he writes something i think he writes stuff very consciously.

I agree that it is all very conscious. I have always thought that the whole "Head on the Door" album is a very conscious attempt at reaching the music charts... The overall polished production, the pop choruses, the "dumbed down" lyrics... It´s not an accident, Robert really wanted success at that time and went all the way for it.