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There's an ongoing debate specially in the US (certainly this is not a relevant topic here in Central Europe) in the use of pronouns. For example, transgender people would refer themselves with a pronoun different than their sex at birth. Take for example Porl Thompson who is now Pearl Thompson (she). I am totally fine with that. Yes, I will refer Pearl as she.

But I personally find absurd people who want to be referred as they/them. Is like you Ulrich coming tomorrow and saying you are "they" :) So no, I won't be using a plural pronoun to refer to a singular person. Clarified here (http://curefans.com/index.php?topic=9788.msg777641;topicseen#msg777641)

Is this a debate at all where you live? Have you encountered anyone who wanted to be referred as they/them?

For context, some opinion leaders thoughts on this here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxB0LHvS4fg) and here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WID6w4_gtwo), and the LGBTQIA Resource Center:

https://lgbtqia.ucdavis.edu/educated/pronouns-inclusive-language

Quote from: dsanchez on September 12, 2023, 01:57:32There's an ongoing debate specially in the US (certainly this is not a relevant topic here in Central Europe) in the use of pronouns. For example, transgender people would refer themselves with a pronoun different than their sex at birth. Take for example Porl Thompson who is now Pearl Thompson (she). I am totally fine with that. Yes, I will refer Pearl as she.

But I personally find absurd peuple who want to be referred as they/them.Is like you Ulrich coming tomorrow and saying you are "they" :) which to me is ridiculous. So no, I won't be using a plural pronoun to refer to a singular person.

Is this a debate at all where you live?

By the way. It was not a good idea to publish this thought on our @curefans Twitter account - This should have been posted with the clarification that is a personal opinion or not posted at all (thanks to our friend @CureFanDoc for sharing her thoughts on this on a DM), as some people are very sensitive with this topic, so we will refrain in the future of posting this on Twitter and will instead stick to this corner for such discussion.

Here are some reactions on Twitter - yes, some people will accuse you of "transphobic" and "bigot" if you don't refer to singular people as "they/them":




🤷

Quote from: dsanchez on September 12, 2023, 10:20:21By the way. It was not a good idea to publish this thought on our @curefans Twitter account...
...some people will accuse you of "transphobic" and "bigot" ...

Indeed, not a good idea. I can't understand reactions like "delete your profile". :unamused:

Could you please PM me with the names & contact details of those persons with these "over the top" reactions? Because then I can "block" them on any channels I use!!  :pouting-face

Btw, normally I'm not the grammar police, but "they/them" is definitely plural, not singular. Ask your teacher(s) if you don't believe it.

Quote from: Ulrich on September 12, 2023, 10:42:51Could you please PM me with the names & contact details of those persons with these "over the top" reactions? Because then I can "block" them on any channels I use!!  :pouting-face

Don't worry. the best you can do with this people is to ignore them. It's interesting people accuse you of "hate", "bigot", "transphobic" etc. yet they are the ones spreading hate with their comments. They can do this under the anonymity of a social network like Twitter, but I doubt they would do this F2F or here on curefans.com - where they would be quickly banned due our anti-hate rules :)

Quote from: dsanchez on September 12, 2023, 10:50:50Don't worry. the best you can do with this people is to ignore them.

Yes of course, that was my thinking behind this. If I block them, I won't read their comments ever. (I'm not on twitter, but on FB and such.)

Quote from: dsanchez on September 12, 2023, 10:50:50I doubt they would do this F2F or here on curefans.com - where they would be quickly banned due our anti-hate rules :)

:smth023

I don't really get how some people are too stupid to reply to a discussion with a well-thought-out comment instead of drivel like above examples...  :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

Plus I wanna add one thing: I do respect the trans persons I met (one is very close) - none of these ever asked me to be addressed as "they/them"!

Quote from: dsanchezSo no, I won't be using a plural pronoun to refer to a singular person.

Hmm. In the German language, this was previously considered impolite if the person was a stranger and/or significantly older. I don't want to judge whether this represents a win or loss. The "they" is definitely on the decline, at least in Germany. 🤔

Quote from: MeltingMan on September 12, 2023, 12:46:09The "they" is definitely on the decline, at least in Germany. 🤔

This can get "lost in translation", because "they" means "sie" (plural, i.e. several persons - not "sie" as in "she", singular), while the German "Sie" (as a "form of address") can only be translated with "you" or maybe the antiquated "ye" or "thou"!

Nick Cave wrote something as a reply to a fan's question in his "Red Hand Files" recently, which I really liked (I have a lot of respect for him and his compassion for his fans):

QuoteHow do you feel about your transgender fans or trans people in general? As a young trans woman, I've had equally positive and negative gender-related experiences with other fans of your work...

...as a performer, however, this concern for the wellbeing of others appears to extend to my fans. In essence, The Red Hand Files, for better or for worse, is a kind of unhinged expansion of that inclination – a weird paternal instinct toward my audience, gone berserk.
I also have another impulse, which I hope is more common, and that is to treat everyone with equal love and respect, regardless of their race, gender, sexuality, religion or anything else. I essentially see the world as a collection of individuals, each unique in their brokenness, who have at their core a common and binding sameness of spirit. So, Amelia, although I am slightly uncertain as to where I am supposed to stand on such things, or rather why I am supposed to stand anywhere, I will say this – I love my trans fans fully and wish them the best, as I love all my fans and wish them the best. I feel toward them that same duty of care that I feel toward all those who exist within my sphere. I also wish for them to receive every right inherent to them and for them to lead lives of dignity and freedom, devoid of violence and prejudice. I wish these things as I wish them for all people.

https://www.theredhandfiles.com/how-do-you-feel/

Quote from: Ulrich on September 12, 2023, 17:22:14I love my trans fans fully and wish them the best, as I love all my fans and wish them the best. I feel toward them that same duty of care that I feel toward all those who exist within my sphere. I also wish for them to receive every right inherent to them and for them to lead lives of dignity and freedom, devoid of violence and prejudice. I wish these things as I wish them for all people.

Amen. Who could disagree with this?

I support the LGBTQ community, including transgender people (obviously, this is their choice, and if they say "from now on I'm comfortable with these pronouns" then I understand them, I respect their comfort and treat them the way they feel comfortable

in my country everything is bad about this...a ban on LGBT propaganda, a ban on gender reassignment... terrible, they classed homosexuality as a mental disorder

Quote from: nerdiee on September 12, 2023, 22:12:24I support the LGBTQ community, including transgender people (obviously, this is their choice, and if they say "from now on I'm comfortable with these pronouns" then I understand them, I respect their comfort and treat them the way they feel comfortable

And so do we. Equal rights for people in general, regardless of their gender.

Quote from: UlrichThis can get "lost in translation"

Really?! The "they" is quite understood. The following text proves it:

Quote from: Oxford University Press, 2013they pron. [third person pl.] 1 used to refer to
two or more people or things previously
mentioned or easily identified. 2 people
in general. 3 used to refer to a person
whose sex is not specified (in place of
either 'he' or 'he or she').
- origin Old Norse

Many people now think that the
traditional use of he to refer to a
person of either sex is old-fashioned and
sexist, but the alternative, he or she, is
rather clumsy. For this reason, they and
its counterparts them and their have
become acceptable instead, as in anyone
can join if they are a resident and each
to their own.

Quote from: MeltingMan on September 13, 2023, 10:39:18

Quote from: Oxford University Press, 2013they pron. [third person pl.] 1 used to refer to
two or more people or things previously
mentioned or easily identified.

This will probably sound hard to believe, but some people will actually want to be referred themselves as they (yes, plural) and if you don't comply with that, you will be accused of transphobia, spreading hate, etc. I am not kidding. Normal and cordial discussion seem to be restricted to communities like this where rules can be enforced, but forget about that in tik tok, twitter, fb etc.

Now some humor :)

Quote from: MeltingMan on September 13, 2023, 10:39:18Really?! The "they" is quite understood. The following text proves it

Dsanchez already explained this in the first posting. What I meant was the (typical) German difference between "they" ("sie", plural), "she" ("sie", singular) and "You, thou, ye" ("Sie" als Anrede!). See how this can get complicated for non-German speakers?   :?

To add some humour too (which won't be understood by non-Germans): "You can say "you" to me" ("Sie können mich duzen"). ;)

Two views:

Quote from: dsanchez on September 12, 2023, 01:57:32There's an ongoing debate specially in the US (certainly this is not a relevant topic here in Central Europe) in the use of pronouns. For example, transgender people would refer themselves with a pronoun different than their sex at birth. Take for example Porl Thompson who is now Pearl Thompson (she). I am totally fine with that. Yes, I will refer Pearl as she.

But I personally find absurd people who want to be referred as they/them. Is like you Ulrich coming tomorrow and saying you are "they" :) So no, I won't be using a plural pronoun to refer to a singular person.

Is this a debate at all where you live? Have you encountered anyone who wanted to be referred as they/them?

In general, when people say to address them with they/them,they do not mean the plural... the pronoun "it" is used so as not to classify oneself as male or female. Such people are in the non-binary gender system
Therefore, I think there is nothing absurd in this, just something new and not quite familiar yet XD

although I'm already late with my answer, I think you already understood everything haha

Quote from: nerdiee on September 14, 2023, 20:38:38In general, when people say to address them with they/them,they do not mean the plural... the pronoun "it" is used so as not to classify oneself as male or female. Such people are in the non-binary gender system

Thank you :smth023  I was doing some research and found this, which is a pretty good explanation and I think closes the topic:

QuoteThe pronoun "they" can be used as a singular pronoun when it is used to refer to a person whose sex is not known or specified. Below are some examples.

We need a new manager for the store down town. They will need to have some managerial experience to apply for the job.
Find a babysitter who can prove they are responsible and are certified in CPR.
An employee will not do a good job if they don't have the right training.
 
Many grammarians and English teachers oppose the use of they (and its other forms: their, them, themselves) as a singular pronoun and encourage students to use "he or she" instead. However, because English does not have a common-gender, or gender neutral, third person singular personal pronoun, writers and speakers often use they. It is a well-established use. It can be used like in the examples above, when the gender of the person referred to is not known, and it can be used to refer to indefinite pronouns such as everyone, someone, and anyone, as in the examples below:

Everyone should take their seats.
Someone was just here and they left their phone behind.
Anyone can learn to ride a bike if they try.

https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/eb/qa/The-Singular-They

Having said that, while this may apply to English it wouldn't work in other languages such a Spanish or Slavic languages such as Czech and Slovak where "they/them" is always tied to a number (greater than one)

In Germany there was some discussion about "gendering" and some people ask to use "*" "_" or other things.
However the offical commission for spelling is not backing them (because these things might make texts more difficult to understand, read or translate)!

https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/2023-12/gendern-sprache-rechtschreibrat-genderstern-unterstrich

QuoteDer Rat für deutsche Rechtschreibung lehnt es weiter ab, den Genderstern oder andere geschlechtergerechte Sprachzeichen in das amtliche Regelwerk aufzunehmen. Das geht nach Angaben der Nachrichtenagentur KNA aus einem mehrheitlich beschlossenen Papier des Expertengremiums hervor. Nach Angaben aus Teilnehmerkreisen heißt es darin: "Sonderzeichen innerhalb von Wörtern beeinträchtigen die Verständlichkeit, die Lesbarkeit, die Vorlesbarkeit und die automatische Übersetzbarkeit". Auch die "Eindeutigkeit und Rechtssicherheit von Begriffen und Texten" sieht der Rat gefährdet.

Which goes to show: none of us are "above" the rules of grammar or spelling.